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-Troika- posted:And what does right of return mean in this context? The original refugees? The original refugees and all their descendants? The original refugees, all their descendants, and any random person who just so happens to be hanging out in their general area? Whatever it takes to wipe the Jewish state from the earth, basically, that's their aim. It's never going to happen though. The palestinians absolutely and without exception doom themselves by continuing to be violent, only a real commitment to non-violence offers them any chance at all for a future, without that there is no hope for them and won't ever be.
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Dec 22, 2015 00:50
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Ddraig posted:On the other hand, I think it's good that the Palestinians do fire rockets. For one thing, it feeds the narrative that Israel has to live up to that Palestinians are an existential threat (even though they clearly are not, any more than a caged dog is an existential threat to the person holding the key). Israel has to jump through so many, many hoops maintaining this lie and eventually they're not going to be able to do it anymore. Dr King and Gandhi taught non violence, and they won their struggles. I see there was a new terrorist attack in Israel today. Do you think it will help or hurt the Palestinians' cause?
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Jan 2, 2016 00:36
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At the end of the day, it comes down to "which people will own the land?" It's pretty obvious that Israel will. Vast populations have migrated across the earth. The United States is almost entirely populated by migrants and the descendants of migrants. The best course of action for the Palestinians is to work to build new lives elsewhere. They're fighting a fight they can't possibly ever win. It's folly.
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Jan 9, 2016 11:22
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Israel sprays herbicide on Gaza farmland because seriously do you even have to loving ask. So, now so they finally think it was worth it to have shot all those rockets? At what point will the thing happen that makes all the rockets and tunnels and stuff worth it?
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Jan 31, 2016 14:16
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XMNN posted:https://web.archive.org/web/20080607060238/http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380984 The fact is, we did displace and in many cases annihilate the indigenous population of North America in order to create the USA. It puts us in a rather weak position to condemn Israel for doing something similar. At the end of the day we justify the existence of the United States because it is a fait accompli. We won and it's ours. The Arabs lost their wars with Israel. It sucks for them but that's how all the land in the world was divided up, in all times and places, going back to prehistory. The Jews just have better reasons for doing it than most people.
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Jan 31, 2016 14:20
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team overhead smash posted:Israel has a worse reason. The basic rationale is the same "I'm here, weaker people are there and I want their land" but America was doing it in the 19th century when there were no international laws against ethnically cleansing and there were no basic human rights enshrined for all people. Well, the American reason was that there was some land and we wanted it so we could have more land. The Jews' reason was that after suffering centuries of oppression and persecution and murder and narrowly escaping being deliberately and systematically exterminated by the people who wrote the international laws and stuff you talk about, they had a chance to claim a little bit of land for themselves, land their ancient forebears had been driven from, and to build for themselves an unassailable fortress there where for the first time in ten or more centuries their people could be sure of their safety. I can see how if you ignore all the specifics you might think America and Israel had the same reasons, or that Israel's reasons are worse than America's, but I can't see any other way.
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Jan 31, 2016 16:12
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drilldo squirt posted:I don't see how ruining crops for farmers hurts the people that shot the rockets. Can you explain? Personally, I don't see any reason to do that if your goal is to stop rocket attacks. I don't know the rationale, but it would make sense to render certain areas where you had established a buffer or "no go" zone useless for farming so you could prevent farmers from using it. With farmers having no reason to be there, you'd reduce the number of plausible and legitimate reasons for anyone to be there, and that would make it more likely that people who were there had some nefarious purpose. So, say the Gazans start firing rockets again, and you decide to start enforcing your buffer zone aggressively, and firing on people who enter it, you're less likely to be firing at noncombatants like farmers, since farmers wouldn't be there anymore since you'd rendered the area unsuitable for farming. The idea, I imagine, is to cause the area to be unsuitable for any use that might otherwise entice people to enter it and take their chances. This means in the event hostilities resume, there isn't a noncombatant population for malefactors to hide amongst or martyr for publicity.
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Jan 31, 2016 16:20
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drilldo squirt posted:I disagree with your postulation that suffering centuries of oppression and persecution makes it ok for you to commit those same acts on the people that were living where ancient Israel used to be. Furthermore, at the time of manifest destiny society operated by different rules that we now see as barbaric, linking the two events is a mistake in my opinion. This all comes off as a justification for doing something you already want to do, and it's obviously something you know is wrong. Well, for one thing, narrowly avoiding extermination and suffering all that horror for so long might cause people to belive, after having lost so many friends and loved ones, "this proves that it really is us or them and we can be sure our very survival is really at stake." In which case it's hard to blame people for choosing "us" over "them." I think you'll find a lot of people, when it comes down to it, would rather do something that might be wrong than die and have their friends and family and all their people die too. I mean, it's bad to do things that are wrong, but it's worse to be exterminated, and if the Jewish experience with Europeans taught them anything, it's that extermination is a real thing that is actually done to them and not just an idea or abstraction.
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Jan 31, 2016 16:27
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drilldo squirt posted:Just a reminder of what you said, it makes me think you are not being honest with why you think they poisoned all those crops. Really? See, I figure there is a connection between the rocket and tunnel attacks and Israel and Gaza becoming more suspicious of each other and less trusting and less willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Say that during the summer of rockets things had gone differently, that instead of attacking Israel, Gazans had chosen to disarm and take action to be less of a threat rather than more of a threat. Do you see, drilldo squirt, how making that choice might have made Israel less inclined rather than more inclined to do things like aggressively assert buffer zones along the border?
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Jan 31, 2016 16:31
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team overhead smash posted:These are all good reasons why I wish the Jews managed to set themselves up nicely and securely in the 1940's. I don't think anyone would permit it, least of all the Israelis or the USA, especially after 9/11. What sympathy people that matter might have once had for Jihad groups and "Islamic Resistance" was crashed into skyscrapers in New York, and then more recently locked in cages and set on fire, or drowned, or decapitated in Syria and Iraq.
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Jan 31, 2016 16:38
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Yardbomb posted:"People tried to exterminate us before" is a pretty bad excuse for now trying to exterminate another group of people. Israel could annihilate Gazans and finely divide all the man made material in the Gaza Strip in a week or two if they were trying to exterminate the Gazans. I think you might before repeating something like that think on the actual holocaust and what was done to people, and why.
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Jan 31, 2016 16:40
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drilldo squirt posted:If they did that their would be massive political backlash as the west would no longer be able to ignore it, I'm betting that's why they haven't done it yet and not because they aren't trying. They're just pure evil eh?
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Jan 31, 2016 16:46
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Gaj posted:Isnt that his thing? Ive been lurking the thread for years and thats all hakimashou says; might makes right, the past is history gotta move on. Hes been saying the same thing for the last 2 threads. It's good to be consistent when you're correct!
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Jan 31, 2016 16:50
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Main Paineframe posted:Sure. The problem is that nations only have the right to unilaterally establish buffer zones on their own territory, not someone else's. Gazan civilians are not subject to Israeli military or government authority, and therefore Israeli forces have no right (other than "we have enough military superiority to violate your rights at will and you can't stop us") to enforce a buffer zone over them. If the IDF wants to bulldoze Israeli homes and fields to create a buffer zone in Israeli territory, that would be just fine (assuming that they followed proper Israeli law and procedures, and survived the inevitable political backlash). However, "military necessity" hasn't been a valid justification for using your overwhelming military superiority to freely violate other nations' sovereignty since 1914. And yet, we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and overthrew their governments based on 'military necessity,' and a broad coalition of other nations helped us do it. And this is just one of a great many examples of this since 1914. "International Laws" are just the will of the most powerful countries. There isn't some separately constituted law-making and law-enforcing institution separate from the most powerful countries and their interests and desires. Israel is and will remain in the good graces of the US and its allies because it is a natural ally. It cant be overstated how comprehensively the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Islamic Resistance movements were doomed by 9/11 and the subsequent actions of Islamists since then. Nobody wants to fight the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria just to see it established in Israel instead.
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Feb 1, 2016 00:15
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Ehud Olmert is in the clink and avshalom is the best poster on SA.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:59
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for a long time this was the worst thread on SA now it has become really good Anyone see how the palestinians killed that Hamas leader for being gay recently or whatever?
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Mar 5, 2016 11:18
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The University of California system's board of regents approved a policy against Anti-Semitism http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/27/us/university-of-california-adopts-statement-condemning-anti-semitism.html Controversy from some quarters over their decision. ^ http://regents.universityofcalifornia.edu/aar/mare.pdf
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Mar 27, 2016 07:12
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Eu Diplomat: EU is against BDS Israel is our friend and the Palestinians aren't, especially post 9/11. 9/11 was probably just about the worst thing that could happen to the Palestinians' cause.
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Mar 31, 2016 06:16
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Ultramega posted:The first sentence is not factual. The second is but not in the sense you mean. In the same way the malaysian airliner that was destroyed, the tiananmen square massacre, and pretty much any other major news outbreak is bad for the palestinian's cause. It shifts the spotlight from gaza/the west bank and enables opportunistic decayed pieces of poo poo to give the OK on more and more expulsions and forced deportations. No, the second in exactly the sense I mean. It has nothing at all to do, even a little bit, with 'taking the spotlight off of it.' It's that pretty much the whole western world and all its friends, even its friends in the Arab world, are now very hostile to islamism of the kind espoused by the likes of HAMAS, islamic jihad, et al. Suicide bombers and "islamic resistance movements" and people wearing black masks shooting AK-47s in the air chanting Allahu Ackbar aren't going to garner much sympathy anymore, instead only hostility, even mortal hostility. Plus Israel has been able to say "see, this is what we've had to deal with, now you have to deal with it too, now you know where we are coming from."
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Apr 1, 2016 11:27
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what does that have to do with the west being riled up against violent islamism by 9/11? 
hakimashou fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 08:55
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VitalSigns posted:I know I am going to regret asking this, but do you actually think Palestinians were behind the 9/11 attacks and/or are a credible threat to the USA, or are you arguing that Americans are too stupid to tell foreigners apart and that's why America has to be an enemy of Palestine and an ally of the country most of the attackers were from? i am arguing that i personally am too stupid to know who was behind 9/11 or that americans are, yes. An-y-way.
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Apr 6, 2016 11:44
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hakimashou posted:
What I mean is, this ^
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Apr 6, 2016 11:45
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Kajeesus posted:You keep repeating that point, but you're not answering the question that's being asked. Do you believe that America does support Israel over Palestine because Palestinians are filthy browns and the voting public is too stupid and/or racist to tell them apart, or that America should support Israel over Palestine because Palestinians are filthy browns and therefore are bringing it on themselves by insisting on being Muslim? I don't know what 'filthy browns' means and I dont know what you mean by 'insisting on being muslims' or any of the other bizarre gibberish you posted there. What I do know is that in the past, it used to be more tolerable in many western eyes to be a violent islamist. This was true of the mujahideen in the soviet afghan war and also of anti-Israel militants. Then something changed, what was it? Ah yes 9/11 and all the rest.. I suspect that 9/11 doomed any hope the palestinians had of both being violent and islamist and also at the same time having friends that mattered in the world. People got very serious about fighting terrorism, most specifically terrorism perpetrated by islamists. Part of anti-terrorism is deciding "if you are a terrorist it doesn't matter what your cause is, no end justifies your means." So, again, Israel has been able to say "9/11, charlie hebdo, brussels attacks, paris attacks, madrid train station, 7/7, etc etc, this is what we have been dealing with for decades, terrorism just like this, suicide terrorism. It's one fight. Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, Jamaat e Islami, Islamic Jihad and HAMAS. One fight."
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Apr 6, 2016 22:47
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Yardbomb posted:Come the gently caress on, with your whole post but really with this. I don't know who you're trying to kid by pretending there's not an entire culture of racism around "the terrorists", when most often people are trying to say "the arabs" there or just people sufficiently "foreign" enough. Maybe so, but wouldn't this only matter if HAMAS and other jihad groups in palestine stopped using terrorism? As long as they do perpetrate terrorist attacks, then they really do fall under the umbrella of 'terrorists' and the rest is a moot point. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are just two out of many terrorist groups that call for 'death to the United States and Israel.' There is literally no path to victory for Hamas. It cannot win any violent struggle against Israel. The fantasy that somehow if the palestinians 'martyr' enough of their children that the world will turn against Israel is idiocy and a crime against decency.
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Apr 6, 2016 23:07
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Kajeesus posted:Do you agree that America is correct in supporting Israel because Muslims did 9/11, or do you observe that America happens to support Israel because Muslims did 9/11? observe To further clarify though, obviously 9/11 isn't the only reason the US supports israel, but I do believe that 9/11 did doom jihad in palestine and was a catastrophe for their movement.
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Apr 6, 2016 23:08
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So, almost 2 years ago Hamas and other jihad groups in Gaza tried violence in earnest against Israel, giving it their best shot. The Israelis responded with Operation Protective Edge and continued until the attacks on Israel stopped. 2 years on, hindsight 20/20, was it a good or bad choice?
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Apr 7, 2016 08:07
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Oh come on, you have to wait more than two years before you can tell such a huge lie and expect to not get called on it. On june 30th, Hamas fired its first rocket since 2012, in response to Israeli airstrikes which killed a Hamas member. No honest, clear-headed observer could come to the conclusion that Hamas instigated protective edge. Or brother's keeper, for that matter. You narrowed it down! Was that a good or bad choice, in retrospect? Did it lead to fewer israeli airstrikes or more, was the end result a stronger or weaker, richer or poorer, better off or worse off Gaza?
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Apr 7, 2016 21:31
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Cat Mattress posted:Basically your argument is that Israel is better at violence than the Palestinians. Yeah, way way way way way better. So, it's a crime against decency to cheerlead palestinian violence. It's always doomed to fail, they're always worse off after than they were before, its a fight they can't win and therefore must not engage in. The notion that if the Palestinians 'martyr' enough of their children the world will turn on Israel is pure bunk. It will never happen. Maybe in a parallel world where there wasn't a huge international fight to the death again salafist islamist terrorists like HAMAS, things might possibly have turned out differently, but it isn't that way. Cheerleading Palestinian violence is unpardonable. For one, it is self-defeating. The more violent the Palestinians are, the worse off they will be. The more violent they are, the more of them will die violently. Not that I think cheerleaders of palestinian terrorism are actually perversely motivated by this, I just don't believe they've done a very good job of thinking through the issue. This is why i think any advocacy for the Palestinians that also condones or endorses violence by Hamas and other jihad groups is without any merit at all and of no value to anyone, and not even a valid position to hold in a serious discussion.
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Apr 7, 2016 21:44
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Cat Mattress posted:Cheerleading Israeli violence, however, is cool and good, right? Well, by the standard I used before, it is at least consistent and not self-defeating and indefensible. Bear in mind, I mean cheerleading Palestinian jihad because you support the Palestinian cause is indefensible because palestinian jihad causes great harm to the Palestinians. It's indefensible because it is self-defeating, it harms the aims its meant to advance. The same isn't at all true for Israel. Israel will win conflicts with Gaza. A person whose only concern is the well-being of Israelis would not be thinking irrationally if he supported the use of force against the Palestinians.
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Apr 8, 2016 02:17
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Does Hamas give life in prison or does it give the death penalty to Palestinians who murder Israelis?
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Apr 20, 2016 09:02
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It's not just military violence. Many people believe that imprisoning somone who is convicted of a crime is not the same as kidnapping, that a fine imposed by a court is not extortion or robbery, or that the death penalty is not murder.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:40
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Main Paineframe posted:Apparently free speech violates the Torah and causes gay marriage and Islamic terrorism. I loving love the Jewish Press's constant screeds about how liberalism and freedom are destroying society, and this one's crazier than most And yet... http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Court-convicts-Gay-Pride-Parade-stabber-Yishai-Schlissel-of-murder-451678 http://www.advocate.com/world/2016/3/01/hamas-leader-accused-gay-sex-killed
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Apr 28, 2016 00:18
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thread is  again welcome back avshalom
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Apr 29, 2016 05:58
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When hamas uses UN facilities to stage attacks of terror on the State of Israel and its people, and then the Israeli Defense Forces respond by striking those facilities, and the UN blames the jews for it, it makes you think.
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May 3, 2016 05:09
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Some good news, A European town called "Jew-Killers' Fortress" has voted to change its name. But alas, now that they have replaced the name, people are vandalizing the town with anti-semitic graffiti. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/05/world/europe/castrillo-mota-de-judos-anti-semitic-vandalism.html
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May 5, 2016 09:44
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Avshalom posted:i'm jewish You're also the best poster in D&D. Makes u think.
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May 7, 2016 07:07
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Crowsbeak posted:So coiuld Israel launching more air strikes in Syria lead to Hams launching a attack on a patrol again? We know that attacking al qaeda, boko haram, ISIS, et al might 'lead to' those groups launching attacks on us or our allies again, but we do it anyway because that's the world we live in and we are on the side we are on. Anyway, another win for the good guys today. Mustafa Badreddine, a Hezbollah terrorist, has met justice in Damascus and will never trouble the world again.
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May 13, 2016 13:20
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With Avigdor Lieberman the defense minister do you think there will be another Gaza war this summer?
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May 28, 2016 02:59
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Won't be long now. Before long it will only be three months. Three months until it's been fifteen years since anyone could regard the notion of HAMAS or a similar Islamic terrorist org being tolerated and taken seriously. Fifteen years since palestininians lost their war. Fifteen years is a long time, gettin fuckin old :/ Anyway, we haven't forgot. Git sum Israel. Do us proud. Also, it won't be long now before the election. Hillary loves Israel, and if you took the time to explain it to Trump, he'd tell Israel to "just finish it, just get it done." It's going to be one or the other. Wait and see. ~Rip. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 30, 2016 14:25
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It's gonna suck in general having trump as president but maybe it will be the push HAMAS terrorists need to start to understand that terrorism will never, ever work and they will never succeed in their aims. I hope that Israel has put them on notice that for the next four years their poo poo will not be tolerated at all. Like not tolerated with maximum force and America's blessing not tolerated.
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Jan 20, 2017 12:23
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