Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Pretending international law isn't just a post-hoc justification for those who have the military power to get their way is a fine way to carry on an internet debate, but it's by no means a reflection of reality.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 21:33

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 20:40

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

rkd_ posted:

What is the alternative?

Realizing we're just doing imperialism with more steps?

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 22:13

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Kagrenak posted:

That's not an alternative that's just a leftist bromide. What are the implications of realizing this? What would the world do with this information if it were up to you?

Avoiding the "but the rules say" circular arguments that tend to clog up these discussions.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 22:40

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Irony Be My Shield posted:

I find this line of argumentation completely baffling, and you should develop it by clearly explaining what your conclusion is and how you arrived at it. Like if it weren't for your post history I would actually assume this is a pro-Israel argument, as much of the case against their campaign (paritcularly recently in this thread) is based around them breaching international laws such as IHL (eg attacking hospitals), the genocide convention or generally held norms around not attacking embassies, and with no other context to go on this appears to be a rebuttal to that (a sortof "might makes right, Israel should be able to do whatever it wants since no-one can stop it" angle). Maybe you think that those international laws are good in principle but that in practice they are selectively enforced in a way that is harmful?

You've essentially done the work for me; if Israel can blatantly violate the common agreements that international law is supposed to uphold with little to no repercussions from the power brokers that are supposed to uphold these rules, then their discussion and enforcement are essentially moot.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 22:56

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Bar Ran Dun posted:

JB

I�m not asserting an opinion. I�m listing three things that are generally regarded as factual.

1) Israel overreacts to attacks or even perceived attacks.

2) Hamas has been the object of those overreactions. Hamas knows how Israel overreacts.

3) Hamas took action in Oct 23.

I�m very pointedly not concluding anything. I think Isreal is committing and intends to keep committing a genocide.

My point is that 1-3 are facts, one can support 1) and 2) from a long history. I haven�t seen anyone dispute 3). I haven�t actually seen anyone dispute 1/2.

Hamas considered Israeli normalization with Saudis as threatening enough to attack last October knowing the Israelis would react disproportionately.

I�m not making a moral judgement about this. It is what it is.

Im not asserting an opinion I'm listing 3 things that are generally regarded as factual.

1) Palestine and the West Bank were slowly being suffocated to death by increasing encroachment by the state of Israel.
2) Hamas needed to do something to draw attention to the plight of their people, who have repeatedly said they would rather fight than be suffocated to death.
3) Hamas took action on Oct 23.

Just say what you mean next time this cutesy stuff is weird.

# ¿ May 4, 2024 00:35

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Civilized Fishbot posted:

Yeah, "more valuable" is stupid, but it's not what I said. I wasn't making any kind of value judgement about whose lives are valuable. I have no idea why you ascribed that offensive idea to me.

When you're in a small society, whether it's a town or a country, local events don't have to be very big to have a big impact on how people think and live.

Maybe a more foolproof way to describe it is this: far fewer civilians died on Oct 7 2023 than September 11 2001. But the average 2024-Isrseli is much more likely to know someone who died on Oct 7 than your average 2002-American is to know someone who died on Sep 11. Greater proximity (in geography, cultural identity, social networks etc) to the victims of a terrorist attack makes the attack more terrorizing, and makes it easier for demagogues to exploit that terror.

And again you can extend this to Gaza where the scale of slaughter is so nauseating that I can't imagine there's a single Palestinian who doesn't know someone who died in this nightmare war. Horrifying

Portion of Americans killed on 9/11: 0.001% (3000 in 285 million)
Portion of Israelis killed on 10/7: 0.011% (1150 in 9.55 million)
Portion of Palestinians in Gaza killed in this war: 1.75% (35,000 in 2 million)

I can't quite grasp this weird need to calculate atrocities, and it doesn't get to the root of what is actually going on.
It could have been half as much or half as few, but the response would still have been the same because the response comes from the culture and not the numbers.
Israel needs to be shown as the tough state that can protect all Jews who wish to live in its borders, and its disproportionate violence is merely that veil being torn to shreds and them desperately trying to piece it back together.

apatheticman fucked around with this message at 04:59 on May 7, 2024

# ¿ May 7, 2024 04:38

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

kiminewt posted:

Who the gently caress is the PR person writing the stunts they do in the UN and who do they think they're impressing? I can only imagine it's aimed at Israeli citizens because it looks pathetic to anyone else.

Yeah its aimed at them and no one else.

# ¿ May 11, 2024 18:33

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

A two state solution doesn't make sense if one of the states is still an ethnostate. You are just kicking the can down the road. The same issues will pop up in a decade or two

A one state solution with full and equal rights for the Palestinians is essentially erasing the state of Israel as we know it because it's entire essence is based on apartheid.

Either way Israel needs to grapple with the fact that it is based on a colonial mindset that cannot exist anymore.

# ¿ May 15, 2024 19:27

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Civilized Fishbot posted:

I disagree. Was the United States erased by the 14th amendment, or by the end of Jim Crow, or by the Civil Rights Act?

If a Democratic state has an "essence" it's the political coalitions that comprise its electorate. In a one state solution, everyone who voted for Netanyahu is still a voter in the Palestinian Republic or whatever you call it. It is not realistic to expect any Gazan to accept the authority of a military and police force in a country where those voters are still a huge chunk of the electorate.

So I think if Gaza is integrated into the State of Israel, even if the State of Israel has a new name and liberal constitution, it will functionally be a conquest.

Functionally the point is moot because the Israeli populace won't allow it. They are huffing the great replacement theory harder than the entirety of fox news.

# ¿ May 15, 2024 19:51

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 20:40

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Nameless_Steve posted:

If Israel were on the warpath to spill as much blood as possible, the way the Syrian army was in 1982, we would expect numbers with 100:1 casualty ratios, at least.

Why do zionists keep spouting this drivel?

Starvation and the destruction of infrastructure are doing more than bombs ever could.

A genocide isn't just with bullets and bombs.

This was one of the most disgusting posts I've read here, not once backed with anything remotely resembling evidence. Anecdotes arent data, you weird interpretation of history and military tactics are not truth.

One country has all the power, one doesn't. Quit pretending they are equals.

# ¿ May 17, 2024 18:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine