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"This was inevitable because of Israel's actions." "So you condone the torture and murder of civilians?" "No, but this was inevitable because..." This has just been going back and forth for dozens of pages, and much of it is essentially an argument about tone. I don't see the point, especially considering that current and former Israeli officials have openly framed the conflict as a total war against the Palestinian population.
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Oct 12, 2023 18:46
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Terebus posted:A more accurate portrayal of what people here and in other left spaces are fighting against is: I don't see people ITT arguing that the ravers had it coming, though some people are aghast at the optics of the celebration. The Breitbart method of cherry-picking random tweets as evidence of what "the Online Left" are up to is so wearying at this point (and still would be if the group in question was Presbyterians or whoever). I don't want to post about posting, but per the updated OP, it's supposed to be a source of information and "interesting arguments" and I've waded through like 30 pages of people just repeating the same irreconcilable arguments.
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Oct 12, 2023 20:01
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I find it hard to believe that Hamas has made it a priority to maximize the appearance of collateral damage by a military that is already acting without regard for collateral damage.
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Oct 16, 2023 19:15
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wins32767 posted:This is a pretty much dehumanizing take on the Israelis involved rather than taking a hard look at their worldview and seeing them as humans doing some terrible stuff because they have some historical reasons to think the alternative is worse.
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Oct 16, 2023 21:26
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Madkal posted:Hamas does good for Palestinians as long as those Palestinians don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non Muslims living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic
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Oct 20, 2023 18:38
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selec posted:Is keeping an apartheid state as bad as being a terrorist organization? To me, they’re basically the same thing. You could even argue the apartheid state is worse because they have the power to control their own destiny, which Hamas really doesn’t have total control over their own future the way Israel does.
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Oct 20, 2023 19:19
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Verisimilidude posted:How can someone counteract the argument "civilian deaths are a necessary part of war. There were over 2 million german civilians killed in ww2, should we have called a ceasefire with the nazis?"
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Oct 31, 2023 16:11
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It's splitting hairs, I guess, but that would be an indication that US foreign policy is at least somewhat accountable to US public opinion.
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Oct 31, 2023 20:24
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Pvt. Parts posted:It must be nice to be so sure of everything. Morally, factually, and so on. If your really think that every explosion in Gaza should be attributed to Israel out of the gate, even after some serious independent doubt has been cast on such explosions in the past (such as the one at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital), I dunno there is not many places to go from there.
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Oct 31, 2023 21:52
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Pvt. Parts posted:Maybe but following him and continuing to surround him, which is what appears to be happening in the last video, is certainly instigating a confrontation.
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Nov 2, 2023 21:05
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Pvt. Parts posted:But I just can't see most IDF leaders waking up and going "ok let's bomb some drat ambulances today!" as a policy.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:49
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MikeC posted:Is the position of folks like Selec that the IDF manufactures questionable evidence to justify their attacks on suspected Hamas targets with an IDGAF attitude to being mistaken or collateral damage?
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Nov 8, 2023 20:49
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HonorableTB posted:Ironically the Sartres quote is applicable to the Israeli government's use of language.
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Nov 9, 2023 16:29
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Neurolimal posted:I refuse to believe that some random dipshit posted a blurry picture of a hand holding a grenade, in a position impossible to belong to the cameraman outside of recording behind his head with his right hand in some Extreme Sports pose, said "This is CNN! CNN did this!", and organically obtained 40,000 likes and millions of views. I refuse to believe that there exists a segment of unpaid users that stupid.
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Nov 9, 2023 21:43
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At some point, it must feel morbid to give Biden credit for things he theoretically could do but has pointedly refused to do.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:50
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CuddleCryptid posted:What else are you supposed to do about it? We're standing in a nation that has become largely decoupled from its populace.
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Nov 13, 2023 22:10
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Randalor posted:At this point, I'm half-expecting the "Hamas terrorist tunnels" that the IDF eventually unveils to be the (remains of) the city's sewer system.
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Nov 15, 2023 22:19
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Are they seriously going to demolish some or all of the hospital so they can make more false claims about tunnels? I mean, I'm sure that's not the only reason to demolish it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled that afterwards.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:07
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No one's connected to land by blood. That's not a thing.
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Dec 7, 2023 21:34
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I can't believe they're just attacking civilians and then claiming after the fact that their victims were combatants.
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Dec 19, 2023 23:11
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Is a genocide that some group theoretically wants to commit, based on your interpretation of their slogan, equivalent to an actual genocide which is currently going on and has been going on for decades?
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Dec 20, 2023 18:33
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Kagrenak posted:Don't put words in my mouth. I spend time in real life organizing attempts to influence our congressional delegation to actually take action against the ongoing genocide. In this thread I have condemned Israel's actions over and over and described them as genocide and horrifying crimes against humanity, among others.
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Dec 20, 2023 19:13
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That's a great point. It's time to hold Haiti accountable.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:22
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Kchama posted:What pass has Israel gotten here for hate-crimes?
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Dec 21, 2023 17:38
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suck my woke dick posted:I would suggest that Biden doesn't support the genocide per se.
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Jan 9, 2024 01:52
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It's not insane, it's politically impossible. The fact that it's politically impossible is what's insane.
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Jan 9, 2024 15:58
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paul_soccer12 posted:Bibi isn't the problem israel is the problem
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Apr 25, 2024 18:11
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If I can judge based on Israeli media and what random Israelis post on social media: there's too great a risk that they'll just openly advocate for the extermination of all Palestinians, or express Opinions about things like birthrates and intermarriage. They have no idea what they sound like to other people in developed nations.
Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 17:06
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I absolutely expect most institutions to deny or at least downplay the genocide. I don't expect "profitable exposes" from media networks with the reach and funding to carry them out. I do agree that support for Israel will continue to decline, though.
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May 3, 2024 17:29
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celadon posted:I feel like the lies of military intelligence were diligently stenographed during the lead up to the Iraq war and then bravely exposed once they had done their job and it didn’t matter anymore. Don’t see why it’d be different here. Like unless you think that the state of Israel has a better control over our media apparatus than we do. I guess the timing could be such that it takes until past its electoral relevance which I suppose isn’t really possible to predict.
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May 3, 2024 17:59
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Charliegrs posted:Yes? Why is that so hard to believe. You think Hamas cares about the Palestinian people? Edit: From your previous posts you don't appear to be a genocidal Hasbara lunatic, so I assume you must be confused about what Hamas is and who comprises its membership. They're not transnational jihadist group who decided that Gaza is the ideal venue to fight the Great Satan, or whatever you might be imagining. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:00 on May 3, 2024 |
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May 3, 2024 19:53
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Zoeb posted:It is the height of hubris and solipsism to say that "rules against genocide don't apply to me and are offensive to invoke because the people I am murdering really *are* cockroaches and that none of them is innocent, even the fetuses." Literally every perpetrator says that.
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May 6, 2024 20:12
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kronix posted:This is just unfair. Israel isn’t just under some perceived threat that they invented out of thin air, they’re literally constantly under threat of terror attacks. In 2021 at the peak of Covid, Hamas launched 3,600 rockets at Israeli civilians. If you don’t think that having hundreds of Israelis killed or wounded over the last 20 years doesn’t affect the psyche of the average Israeli then it’s not worth debating anymore. fool of sound posted:Let's check Israel's numbers for October 2022 through September 2023, the year leading up to the festival attack: 47 deaths, 146 injured. 193 total victims. So 2 per 100000 Israelis. Those are from 2339 "terrorist attacks". The overwhelming majority of "attacks" that Israel claims are victimless. They're vandalism and other non-violent acts of protest. Civilized Fishbot posted:That's about twice as much as Americans who died in 9/11 (a little under 3000 out of a little under 300 million) and most of us remember how much that attack warped Americans culture and enflamed horribly racist, genocidal rhetoric. Civilized Fishbot posted:Maybe a more foolproof way to describe it is this: far fewer civilians died on Oct 7 2023 than September 11 2001. But the average 2024-Isrseli is much more likely to know someone who died on Oct 7 than your average 2002-American is to know someone who died on Sep 11. Greater proximity (in geography, cultural identity, social networks etc) to the victims of a terrorist attack makes the attack more terrorizing, and makes it easier for demagogues to exploit that terror. The death toll of 10/7 isn't a worthwhile data point because this is a conversation about the development of violent Zionism over the years and decades leading up to it, in response to terrorist attacks on Israel. In 2022, 29 Israelis (not counting 3 foreigners) were killed by terrorist attacks. (This was the body count of over 2,200 "attacks." For context, 204 Palestinians were killed by the IDF and Israeli settlers that year, about 2/3 in the West Bank and 1/3 in Gaza.) Israel estimates their 2022 population at 9,656,000, so that's about 1 out of every 333,000 Israelis killed by terrorism. For comparison, 9/11 killed 1 out of every 95,892 Americans in 2001. CF was taking the total number of Israeli injuries and deaths in 2022, as reported by Israel, and comparing them to the death toll of 9/11. My point is, it's not like Israeli was experiencing anything comparable to 9/11 year after year. (This is also after setting aside any distinction between the IDF and civilians.) If the US had experienced an annual death toll from terrorism relative to Israel in 2022, it would be 998 victims. For comparison, mass shootings killed 762 Americans in 2022 and COVID contributed to the deaths of almost 245,000 an average of 671 per day. Anyway. Based on these numbers as well as a lot of other reasons, I don't buy kronix's argument that Israel has a violent, genocidal culture because each and every Israeli lives with the constant, justified fear of being the victim of a terrorist attack. I'm sure it adds fuel to the fire, but I don't see it as the primary reason that a colonial settler state project is racist and genocidal. You can, for example, look at other nations considered to be severely impacted by terrorism over the past 10 or 20 years, and you won't find many straight-across comparisons to Israel: an ethnostate that enshrines racial supremacism, maintains a captive population, where gangs commit acts of racial violence with the aid and protection of the police.
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May 8, 2024 19:25
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