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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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team overhead smash posted:

The most significant lend-lease help that's usually talked about is in terms of logistics. As WW2 was getting started the Red Army was still relying on horse and cart for a lot of its stuff but the USA sent over hundreds of thousands of jeeps and trucks. This improved the logistics situation a lot and gave their armies much more maneuverability, which they used to very good effect.

They also got a lot of planes and thousands of tanks, but they're usually ranked as less important. Whether no lend lease would have meant a German victory I can't say, but I think it would have caused at lest some significant troubles for the Soviets which would have meant more deaths and a longer war at the very least.

The USSR would have steamrolled Germany eventually but D-day helped and Stalin ending up in control of all of continental Europe would have been pretty bad.

Don't forget locomotives. The USSR was able to dedicate the vast majority of its domestic industry to directly producing war fighting materiel, which was a significant advantage.

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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That's realism, baby!

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Bozart posted:

Here's a shot in the dark and slightly OT - is there an equivalent for Victorian England? Amazon only yields crap about poetry, sexuality, and barely reviewed surveys of the period. How the heck did they manage a world spanning empire? Doesn't help that I'm not a Brit.

Dreadnought by Robert Massie is pretty good and provides some context around the twilight of the empire. It is also about cool botes.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Veloxyll posted:

For submarine bombing there is no such thing as overkill. Either it goes down forever or you needed a bigger bomb.

Basically the theory behind the various Nuclear Depth Bombs.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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CeeJee posted:

Did the Japanese put any effort into expanding their merchant navy before 1941 to actually be able to use all the resources and territory they planned on grabbing ? Or did the leadership consider those ugly floating boxes a waste of shipyards that should be building sleek weapons of war ?

Short answer: No.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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A White Guy posted:

Overweight? Not really, the Bismarck was actually a bit smaller than the Iowa-class battleships that the US put in the water.

I think the real failing of the Bismarck was that she was massive battleship, designed and put into the water by a power that really no interest producing the naval compliment to allow her to function in a similar fashion to her British counterparts. If you build a fleet ship, you kind of need of a fleet to go along with her - which is problematic since the German fleet suffered during the Invasion of Norway. Bismarck and the equally silly Tirpitz were designed and put into the water without any idea of how they were going to be functionally used in the face of a massively stronger British navy and naval airpower.

You can talk a lot of poo poo about Donitz and Raeder, but Hitler was asking them to do the impossible with only submarines and an incredibly limited surface fleet.

Overweight is a function of design, not tonnage.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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steinrokkan posted:

It was mined to hell and there were two battleships trained at the possible route of German advance on the city. I don't think so.

Dieppe really showed that one of the major points for amphibious assaults is "Do Not Attack Fortified Ports Head On"

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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alex314 posted:

Enterprise eats a sub-launched long lance salvo :black101:

The Type 93 was only carried by surface ships.The sub-launched oxygen torpedo was the Type 95, which was considerably smaller with shorter legs.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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The game models anything that isn't boats or planes extremely poorly.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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If you read about SMS Emden, it took them a hell of a long time to scuttle freighters even with charges and seacocks open, and that's without trying to risk dudes going aboard / staying aboard a completely hosed up ship.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

goatface posted:

How the gently caress did they manage to lose that many men in an attack with 2-1 AV?

Attacking an urban hex is like a 4x bonus or something.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Why do you insist on grouping extremely slow ships with fast ones in the worst possible TF combinations?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Grey Hunter posted:

I like giving the ai a chance....

I respect this answer.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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pthighs posted:

Another advantage of transporting aircraft on a carrier is they are ready to fly at the destination. If you use a cargo ship they have to be reassembled over several days at their destination.

On the other hand, crated airframes are pretty cube efficient.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
Avisos aren't minesweepers. They're the size of a destroyer, roughly, and have similar-sized main armament. Late avisos carried an aircraft, and no torpedoes. They were over crewed and extremely slow with very long range. The Bougainville class made 17.5 knots. They were used as despatch boats and show-the-flag patrol boats in colonial areas. Two Bougainville class avisos fought a single ship action in a somewhat unique occurence. The Vichy aviso won.

Edit: got it backwards the free French aviso won

KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Nov 29, 2016

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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OpenlyEvilJello posted:

It came up in both.


Several of the avisos listed are, in fact, minesweepers (e.g. Granit, L'Impétueuse). Others are closer to something like a Flower or Black Swan (e.g. D'Iberville). Listed ships range from about 250 tons to nearly 2000 tons. The description was intended to be illustrative rather than exhaustive.

Colonial Avisos are just kind of neat so your shouldn't lump them in with stupid minesweepers!

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Chuu posted:

My view of World War II is so colored by the way it's taught in the US and the fact we won that I can't really answer. There is a lot of America (gently caress yeah) in the way it's taught; but I can't help but think that some parts of America were just tired of War after the meat grinder that was the eastern campaign. Vietnam definitely shows there is an upper limit.

Vietnam wasn't even close to an even arguably existential war where the US was directly attacked.

What do you mean about the meat grinder that was the eastern campaign?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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bunnyofdoom posted:

For us ignorant, what message?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_world_wonders

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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For a guy with the nickname "Bull," Halsey was sure a sensitive motherfucker.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Acebuckeye13 posted:

The first part of the padding was removed before it got to him, but not the second. Halsey thought the message was a direct rebuke from Nimitz, a man not known for personal insults. Considering the massive emotional whiplash he'd just gone through (On the verge of triumph over the infamous Japanese carrier fleet to being responsible for what was quickly appearing to be the greatest disaster in US Naval History), I can understand being a bit upset.

yeah but like, do your loving job instead of sulking like a child

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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dtkozl posted:

Almost all the admirals and generals were like that. Clark, MacArthur, Bradley, Montgomery were all extremely vain and immediately shut anyone out that wasn't part of their circle that worshiped them.

how do you post this list and not include Patton

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Murgos posted:

To be fair to Halsey here he was pursuing a massive Japanese carrier fleet and still couldn't be sure that the action off Samar wasn't a diversion. An hour isn't really that much time to deliberate.

He didn't know that the carriers were a toothless diversion.

He instead managed to not make a decision, meaning that his forces didn't contribute to the outcome at all! Great!

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Acebuckeye13 posted:

Compared to the B-17, the B-24 was faster, could carry more, and could fly father, sure. But you can't forget that the B-17 was a hell of a lot more durable than the Liberator, and could survive ferocious punishment compared to other aircraft. There's a reason they kept making them alongside Liberators, and why they were retained in service in specialized roles for over a decade after the war.

noooot really, it was more the fact that if you already have a line entirely tooled for B-17 production, it does not make sense to redo the line to produce a somewhat better bomber.

gradenko_2000 posted:

The qualifiers I would put on B-17s and the strategic bombing of Germany is that:

1. for quite some time they were using the Javelin Down formation rather than the box formation, which made them less capable of mutual fire support than a box formation
2. for quite some time they were flying into France and Germany unescorted
3. for quite some time they were wasting bombs trying to hit U-boat pens

Now, the argument that supports the Anglo-American bombing campaign regardless of these failings is that A. they drew off an alleged million-or-so men into Western Europe to man AA batteries and fighter squadrons that would otherwise have seen action in the Eastern Front, and B. the depletion of the Luftwaffe in the efforts to fight-off the bombers paved the way for complete air superiority come D-Day.

But they definitely could have done a lot more and lost a lot less, with the benefit of hindsight.

There might be some benefit in terms of fighter squadrons but AA batteries were to a large degree manned by old dudes, kids, and guys invalided out or on convalescent leave.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Jobbo_Fett posted:

Noumea's right there and he's going to ram the island and sink it into the Pacific Ocean! :byodood:

banzai, mother fuckers!

RA Rx posted:

You can make some pretty good fighters out of old dudes and kids with enough training and experience.

I assume you're joking.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Ron Jeremy posted:

Also unspoken in the previous question, how did this TF get within 24,000 yards?

IJN_air_search_doctrine.txt

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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TildeATH posted:

I wonder how mythical the American Will To Fight really is. I mean, at what point does the United States finally say "Well, really, Hawaii was just a colonial naval base...:

Generally killing more dudes is not the way to weaken the Will to Fight throughout history

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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goatface posted:

Depends how useful the game codes guns for island hopping. I could definitely see them being a big loss on the holding-on to poo poo front, what with all the shore defence sniper bullshit we saw early war.

Guns aren't the same as CD guns, naturally.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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You've killed a lot of useful stuff like that APA as well.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Night10194 posted:

That being said, I have no goddamn idea how you're supposed to fight Shermans with what Japan had for fighting Shermans, so you know.

Explosives on stick is a surprisingly good way to kill a tank if you're willing to die.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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the IJN's CAs mostly rusted at Truk for a bunch in real life anyway.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Italy in North Africa could have been kind of reasonable given a few changes to the scope conditions.

1. Iachino and Campioni drown in bathtubs or die at an early age. RM leadership was atrocious. Campioni was too cautious and Iachino was an idiot.
2. Domenico Cavagnari trips on a high-technology rock and dies. Italian radar technology was potentially world leading in the mid 1930s, but Cavagnari halted development. This made the RM a fair-weather force only. I suppose some deficiencies could have been made up for by heavy emphasis on night fighting a la IJN, but the Gufo installed on capital ships with trained technicians in 1939 would make a big difference.
3. The Italians don't declare war with approximately 1/3 of their total merchant tonnage at pier in Allied ports.
4. The Italians take the war seriously and don't view it as a "take a few thousand casualties and show up at the negotiating table" - I think this, plus too much Mahan, led them to be very strategically cautious in the naval area.
5. Plan for amphibious assault operations and expand parachutist training earlier. The Italians actually had fairly decent capabilities in terms of parachute infantry, but not enough on hand early.

Once the war is under way:
1. Plan for and immediately hit Malta with seaborne and airborne assault.
2. Push quickly for the Suez and commit more troops - once you get across, the situation in the Med becomes a lot easier. Once a lot of African, Indian, ANZ, etc troops start showing up things get pretty tough.
3. Ignore Greece and Yugoslavia for a while.
4. Get the Germans to come to the party from the beginning.

edit: forgot a really good one: begin prospecting for oil in Libya early. Build a strategic petroleum reserve.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 13:48 on May 5, 2017

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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wukkar posted:

Did the Italian navy sink goddamn anything that wasn't Italian?

HMS Valiant, HMS Queen Elizabeth, HMS York.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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It's definitely Romania, they joined the Axis and were immediately carved up by other Axis minors.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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RA Rx, you have a really poor understanding of the causes of the Spanish Civil war. The Beevor book on it is a decent enough overview and a good read. As has already been said, it's pretty well documented that the Nationalists killed far more civilians than the Republicans during the war. Franco was a brutal dictator; just because he wasn't Hitler or Stalin doesn't mean he was a Good And Positive Influence On Spain And Europe. The world would have been better off if he had eaten a bullet in the Rif wars.

If ETA had not assassinated Luis Carerro Blanco, there's a good chance that Spain would not have liberalized as quickly. His replacement as PM immediately relaxed restrictions on free associations and promoted a politically liberal agenda, not just an economically liberal one.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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whitewhale posted:

The Queen Elizabeth wasn't sank either. Heavily damaged but was repaired and back in action by 43.

both those ships were sunk at anchor and raised, I'd count Littorio, Nevada, Caio Duilio exactly the same way

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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That APA will be a good get.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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APA and an AKA are great gets.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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goatface posted:

Daytime at 10 miles, slow PBs, presumably radar fire control is fully online by this point. They might have needed a few ranging shots to adjust for wind.

I'd be surprised if a fair number of those hits aren't from 5"

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Technically since its boats it's the responsibility of the IJNAS

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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gradenko_2000 posted:

If I'm not mistaken those things go poof because they're land units that are included in the surrender part of the land combat mechanics.

WitP.txt

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