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  • Locked thread
thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

computer parts posted:

It's pretty simple logic really. Guy loves his wife, guy gets a vision about his wife dying (and his previous one about his mom dying came true), guy learns that the Sith have the ability to save people from dying, guy finds out his boss is going to kill the only Sith left in the galaxy.

A ton of people would at least consider stopping the Sith lord from dying, especially when the executioner is himself violating the law.

I think the bigger problem here is that Anakin goes from "No, you can't murder him, it's wrong!" to, himself, murdering children like...minutes later.

I think people were expecting the turn to be more gradual than that. But it seems to be an on/off switch.

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cargohills
Apr 18, 2014

LinkesAuge posted:

But he didn't even "learn" that the Sith have the ability to save people from dying, he just heard a myth (are we supposed to think of Anakin as literal child who believes every story he is told?). Palpatine didn't offer him any powers, there was no proof that he could actually have such a power nor does he even know if the Sith still exist or who they are (up until that certain moment).
It's all just so flimsy as excuse for him to turn to the dark side. Sure he had bad visions about his wife but that's really not enough as justification/motivation, not to mention that it makes it even more stupid that he is in the end the one who hurts his wife. The whole way he acts and then "decides" to join the dark side doesn't feel organic. It's not even a real decission, his "turn" was more of an impulse. That might seem human on one hand but on the other hand it also made it way less dramatic than it could have been. Anakin stumbled to the dark side instead of being seduced by it. I know that some people will argue that's how it was supposed to be and everything else is just fan fiction in the minds of SW fans but it certainly doesn't add any sympathy towards Anakin and takes gravitas away from the whole story.
Until today I don't understand why Lucas wasted two movies before finally starting to tell the story of how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader (and yes that was THE reason to be excited for the prequels). On top of that the big dramatic moment wasn't even well setup for the final movie. Padme wasn't put in danger, there is no conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wam/the Jedi, Palpatine still hadn't revealed himself or really started to turn Anakin, Anakin himself was still 100% in the Jedi camp (and yes some teeny bitching about Obi-Wan doesn't change that) and hardly showed any character development or growth as person (in whatever direction). Parts of Dooku's character for example would have worked well with Anakin. There you have a former Jedi who was disappointed/felt betrayed by the Jedi and thus turned to the dark side. Why introduce such an additional character when you are already trying to tell the story of Darth Vader? I get the need for a big "villain" but having Dooku and Grievous was just unecessary and messy. I guess the problem was already in the pacing of the prequels. Setting the first film so far behind the other two was always going to cause problems in regards to story telling, the time gap was simply too big for a more cohesive story and while it was a good moment in TPM in hindsight it would have been better to keep Darth Maul around for the 2nd movie.
That way Anakin could have had his big moment in the 2nd movie against Maul with plenty of possibilities to create a dramatic story around it (revenge for Quin-Gon or whatever else Maul might have done in the 1st/2nd movie) and more importantly show more of the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan/the Jedi instead of wasting your screen time on all kinds of other plots (and I don't even mean the relationship with Padme, that's fine, even necessary to humanize Anakin though I wish it would have been done competently and with actors that had at least some chemistry with each other on screen). Also let Palpatine be more active instead of giving that screen time to Dooku and Grievous. Let him actually seduce Anakin. We got hints of that in the 3rd movie and those were among the best scenes in the prequels but it was too little and too late.
There was never a need for Palpatine to be the biggest undercover master manipulator in space history. His identity doesn't need to be a secret until the third movie. It could have already been revealed in the 2nd movie (at least to some people) and then be used to escalate the story a lot sooner (and there are still enough ways to get Palpatine into power). You could even have used that reveal in showing how ineffective the Jedi have become, not just to the audience but especially to Anakin. Give him an actual side he can turn to/be seduced by instead of this vague background threat the Sith were in the first two prequel movies which was imo one of the biggest problems of the prequels. It not only made the Jedi look more stupid than plausible but it also created problems for the story because Lucas constantly had to invent new factions and characters he could throw at Anakin and the Jedi despite Palpatine/the Sith being the most interesting and the whole "reason" for the prequels in the first place.
The original movies were about those two big forces (pun intended) with the Rebellion being a lot more in the background (sometimes literally being in the background) while the prequels pushed the Republic and the Separatists right into our faces (including their politics) and made the Jedi/the Sith side characters. That's just bad if your main character is Anakin/Darth Vader and not some Star Wars space politician and your famous factions are the Jedi and Sith and not space parties. Do all of that if you want to tell the story of Bail Organa but keep it to a minimum if you want to tell an epic scfi-fantasy story and not a political drama.

Please reformat this if you actually want anyone to read it.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth

weekly font posted:

The experimental poo poo will come from the one-shot movies. They're gonna play it real close to the vest with the numbered series.

I predict the opposite. The spinoffs will be rote paint-by-numbers (with branded Star Wars crayons) dross and eps 8 & 9 might try to do something with the material after 7 gets a mixed reception.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

hey look,
a post
boy, i don't know about you guys, but i love star wars

ATP_Power
Jun 12, 2010

This is what fascinates me most in existence: the peculiar necessity of imagining what is, in fact, real.


I've been going through a rewatch of the whole series in episode order, and Cnut and SMG's postings in the old thread have made those movies way more interesting than I remembered. I'd forgotten how often the droids in those films scream when they die.

Another thing that struck me in TPM is the scene where Anakin is packing up and is talking to C3P0 about how he wasn't going to be able to finish him, and would try to make sure his mom wouldn't sell him. When the scene looks at C3P0 it's a normal shot, but when the camera is on Anakin (the recently freed slave) talking about how he'll make sure his mom doesn't sell 3P0, it's shot from what looks like 3P0's first person perspective. Is that one of the only times we have a first person shot in any of the Star Wars films? It really stood out to me.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

sucks to be right

LinkesAuge posted:

But he didn't even "learn" that the Sith have the ability to save people from dying, he just heard a myth (are we supposed to think of Anakin as literal child who believes every story he is told?). Palpatine didn't offer him any powers, there was no proof that he could actually have such a power nor does he even know if the Sith still exist or who they are (up until that certain moment).

In the end he even admits that he doesn't know the secret to Plagueis' power to resurrect the dead but he's sure he can discover it with Anakin's help.

BigglesSWE
Dec 2, 2014

How 'bout them hawks news huh!

ATP_Power posted:

I've been going through a rewatch of the whole series in episode order, and Cnut and SMG's postings in the old thread have made those movies way more interesting than I remembered. I'd forgotten how often the droids in those films scream when they die.

Another thing that struck me in TPM is the scene where Anakin is packing up and is talking to C3P0 about how he wasn't going to be able to finish him, and would try to make sure his mom wouldn't sell him. When the scene looks at C3P0 it's a normal shot, but when the camera is on Anakin (the recently freed slave) talking about how he'll make sure his mom doesn't sell 3P0, it's shot from what looks like 3P0's first person perspective. Is that one of the only times we have a first person shot in any of the Star Wars films? It really stood out to me.

Mmmmmm I think there's a similar POV shot in Return of the Jedi when Leia is alone in the forest and looking for the thing that rattles Wicked. Might remember it wrong tho.

weekly font
Dec 1, 2004


Everytime I try to fly I fall
Without my wings
I feel so small
Guess I need you baby...



Is there a POV shot from the mouth of the Sarlacc?

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002

LinkesAuge posted:

But he didn't even "learn" that the Sith have the ability to save people from dying, he just heard a myth (are we supposed to think of Anakin as literal child who believes every story he is told?). Palpatine didn't offer him any powers, there was no proof that he could actually have such a power nor does he even know if the Sith still exist or who they are (up until that certain moment).
It's all just so flimsy as excuse for him to turn to the dark side. Sure he had bad visions about his wife but that's really not enough as justification/motivation, not to mention that it makes it even more stupid that he is in the end the one who hurts his wife. The whole way he acts and then "decides" to join the dark side doesn't feel organic. It's not even a real decission, his "turn" was more of an impulse. That might seem human on one hand but on the other hand it also made it way less dramatic than it could have been. Anakin stumbled to the dark side instead of being seduced by it. I know that some people will argue that's how it was supposed to be and everything else is just fan fiction in the minds of SW fans but it certainly doesn't add any sympathy towards Anakin and takes gravitas away from the whole story.
Until today I don't understand why Lucas wasted two movies before finally starting to tell the story of how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader (and yes that was THE reason to be excited for the prequels). On top of that the big dramatic moment wasn't even well setup for the final movie. Padme wasn't put in danger, there is no conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wam/the Jedi, Palpatine still hadn't revealed himself or really started to turn Anakin, Anakin himself was still 100% in the Jedi camp (and yes some teeny bitching about Obi-Wan doesn't change that) and hardly showed any character development or growth as person (in whatever direction). Parts of Dooku's character for example would have worked well with Anakin. There you have a former Jedi who was disappointed/felt betrayed by the Jedi and thus turned to the dark side. Why introduce such an additional character when you are already trying to tell the story of Darth Vader? I get the need for a big "villain" but having Dooku and Grievous was just unecessary and messy. I guess the problem was already in the pacing of the prequels. Setting the first film so far behind the other two was always going to cause problems in regards to story telling, the time gap was simply too big for a more cohesive story and while it was a good moment in TPM in hindsight it would have been better to keep Darth Maul around for the 2nd movie.
That way Anakin could have had his big moment in the 2nd movie against Maul with plenty of possibilities to create a dramatic story around it (revenge for Quin-Gon or whatever else Maul might have done in the 1st/2nd movie) and more importantly show more of the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan/the Jedi instead of wasting your screen time on all kinds of other plots (and I don't even mean the relationship with Padme, that's fine, even necessary to humanize Anakin though I wish it would have been done competently and with actors that had at least some chemistry with each other on screen). Also let Palpatine be more active instead of giving that screen time to Dooku and Grievous. Let him actually seduce Anakin. We got hints of that in the 3rd movie and those were among the best scenes in the prequels but it was too little and too late.
There was never a need for Palpatine to be the biggest undercover master manipulator in space history. His identity doesn't need to be a secret until the third movie. It could have already been revealed in the 2nd movie (at least to some people) and then be used to escalate the story a lot sooner (and there are still enough ways to get Palpatine into power). You could even have used that reveal in showing how ineffective the Jedi have become, not just to the audience but especially to Anakin. Give him an actual side he can turn to/be seduced by instead of this vague background threat the Sith were in the first two prequel movies which was imo one of the biggest problems of the prequels. It not only made the Jedi look more stupid than plausible but it also created problems for the story because Lucas constantly had to invent new factions and characters he could throw at Anakin and the Jedi despite Palpatine/the Sith being the most interesting and the whole "reason" for the prequels in the first place.
The original movies were about those two big forces (pun intended) with the Rebellion being a lot more in the background (sometimes literally being in the background) while the prequels pushed the Republic and the Separatists right into our faces (including their politics) and made the Jedi/the Sith side characters. That's just bad if your main character is Anakin/Darth Vader and not some Star Wars space politician and your famous factions are the Jedi and Sith and not space parties. Do all of that if you want to tell the story of Bail Organa but keep it to a minimum if you want to tell an epic scfi-fantasy story and not a political drama.

I can't tell you how interesting it is when someone posts their long manifesto on how the prequels should have gone.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
The prequels are about the fall of institutions as much as they are about Anakin himself. TPM isn't a waste of a film—in fact it gives us the good-hearted, heroic Anakin that people always talk about. It is more saccharine than the other movies, but only as a way of covering up the sickness in both the Republic and the Jedi Order. AOTC is all about the blindness of the Jedi (while they get duped into a galactic war, thinking all the while that they've solved a big mystery) and the ways in which they are failing their star pupil.

I don't see why the prequels would have been better if the Jedi were more straightforward heroes and the Sith were overt bad guys the whole time. The Sith in these movies are effective villains because they're conniving bastards.

ATP_Power posted:

Another thing that struck me in TPM is the scene where Anakin is packing up and is talking to C3P0 about how he wasn't going to be able to finish him, and would try to make sure his mom wouldn't sell him. When the scene looks at C3P0 it's a normal shot, but when the camera is on Anakin (the recently freed slave) talking about how he'll make sure his mom doesn't sell 3P0, it's shot from what looks like 3P0's first person perspective. Is that one of the only times we have a first person shot in any of the Star Wars films? It really stood out to me.

I believe there's at least one more in AOTC, when Anakin is riding in the cart in the arena and cutting down droids as he goes. I think there was one other POV shot, but I can't remember where.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum

BigglesSWE posted:

Mmmmmm I think there's a similar POV shot in Return of the Jedi when Leia is alone in the forest and looking for the thing that rattles Wicked. Might remember it wrong tho.

Its close to a POV shot; I don't think you get the headbob like the 3PO one though.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007
$474,544,677
$310,676,740
$380,270,577

This is how much the "bad" prequels made.

I don't know why this would lead people to believe that Disney wants to play it safe this time around. No matter what, it being a Star Wars film means it will print money. Adjusting due to inflation, plus the cash-grab format up-sells like 3D, fake IMAX, and real IMAX means that its almost guaranteed to make more than Episode 1 did.

(Just a side note, The Clone Wars movie that was released in theaters has already been surpassed at the box office by The Force Awakens via $50 million+ in pre-sales)

If you want to claim the "safe" angle because of JJ (or Colin Trevorrow for that matter), that's one thing that you MIGHT be able to back up. But nothing about Rian Johnson's career points to him playing anything safe.

Danger
Jan 4, 2004

all desire - the thirst for oil, war, religious salvation - needs to be understood according to what he calls 'the demonogrammatical decoding of the Earth's body'

LinkesAuge posted:

But he didn't even "learn" that the Sith have the ability to save people from dying, he just heard a myth (are we supposed to think of Anakin as literal child who believes every story he is told?).
Yes. Anakin is a child and a central theme of Star Wars is the relationship of myth and history. and...

quote:

Do all of that if you want to tell the story of Bail Organa but keep it to a minimum if you want to tell an epic scfi-fantasy story and not a political drama.

An epic sci-fi fantasy, such as Star Wars in this particular example, is a sort of political drama.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend

Mahoning posted:

$474,544,677
$310,676,740
$380,270,577

This is how much the "bad" prequels made.

I don't know why this would lead people to believe that Disney wants to play it safe this time around. No matter what, it being a Star Wars film means it will print money. Adjusting due to inflation, plus the cash-grab format up-sells like 3D, fake IMAX, and real IMAX means that its almost guaranteed to make more than Episode 1 did.

(Just a side note, The Clone Wars movie that was released in theaters has already been surpassed at the box office by The Force Awakens via $50 million+ in pre-sales)

If you want to claim the "safe" angle because of JJ (or Colin Trevorrow for that matter), that's one thing that you MIGHT be able to back up. But nothing about Rian Johnson's career points to him playing anything safe.

One trilogy will do well no matter what, but Disney has invested $4 billion dollars in this bitch. They're wanting to put one out every year for the rest of time, you can be drat sure they want to get off on the right foot with something that's really crowd pleasing.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

I expect that Episode VII will "play it safe" in the same sense that Episode IV did, e.g. it's setting up a false moral clarity for its sequels to subvert.

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Star Wars killed New Hollywood and must die in agony for proving that Jaws-level blockbusters could be replicated.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Jack Gladney posted:

Star Wars killed New Hollywood and must die in agony for proving that Jaws-level blockbusters could be replicated.

Begun, the Clone Wars had.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Jack Gladney posted:

It's because kids were going apeshit for Lord of the Rings and the prequels were distant second bananas two out of three times.

LOTR and the PT were only in theaters for one year together (2002), and I'm pretty sure it wasn't even the same time of year.

weekly font
Dec 1, 2004


Everytime I try to fly I fall
Without my wings
I feel so small
Guess I need you baby...



Frackie Robinson posted:

The prequels were all about telling the fans that they really need to grow up, get laid, and set childish things aside, so I imagine the new ones will be, "no, it's still okay to like Star Wars, you're not a man-child, this is all as cool as you remember"

"The Force, it's calling you. Just let it in."

Actually the two people who stop being childish and grow up (Anakin, Jar Jar) ruin the galaxy, so, I dunno.

If it advocates anything about lifestyle it's a balance of logic and emotion and that too much of one is dangerous.

Lampsacus
Oct 21, 2008

Josh Lyman posted:

Why the hell would you do that?
Because I'm interested to see what a suboptimal viewing order will feel like. Plus, Episode 1 holds a special place in my heart as it was the first Star Wars.

kiimo
Jul 24, 2003

If this movie is really good I think it will do what the Phantom Menace was thought would do and that's break the box office record. I hope so because I really dislike Avatar. (Titanic's cool though)

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

computer parts posted:

LOTR and the PT were only in theaters for one year together (2002), and I'm pretty sure it wasn't even the same time of year.

Really? I remember a really embarrassing attempt at having Yoda rap to overshadow Gollum winning an award at some mtv thing in 2003.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!

kiimo posted:

If this movie is really good I think it will do what the Phantom Menace was thought would do and that's break the box office record. I hope so because I really dislike Avatar. (Titanic's cool though)

Avatar was one of those films that I really liked when I saw it (twice), but now it just seems thoroughly mediocre.

Danger
Jan 4, 2004

all desire - the thirst for oil, war, religious salvation - needs to be understood according to what he calls 'the demonogrammatical decoding of the Earth's body'

Jack Gladney posted:

Star Wars killed New Hollywood and must die in agony for proving that Jaws-level blockbusters could be replicated.

Gilles Deleuze angrily shakes his fist at the passing TIE fighter.

BornAPoorBlkChild
Sep 24, 2012

mr.capps posted:

boy, i don't know about you guys, but i love star wars

no SHUT UP people need to read my c+ film class 1101 analysis!

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.



Zoran posted:

Avatar was one of those films that I really liked when I saw it (twice), but now it just seems thoroughly mediocre.

We need a 900 page thread evangelising Avatar in excruciating detail.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007
Oh I forgot another cool tidbit from the 60 Minutes Overtime videos was JJ talking about the writing process with Lawrence Kasden. He talked about how he would have an idea and Kasden would be like "NO, you don't need to say that, the character doesn't need to say that. Just trust the characters."

I was both shocked that JJ thought this was a novel idea, and relieved that Kasden helped write this movie.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Steve2911 posted:

We need a 900 page thread evangelising Avatar in excruciating detail.

Be the change you want to see ignored in the world.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Lawrence Kasdan's involvement is the chief reason why optimism is warranted, I think.

Danger
Jan 4, 2004

all desire - the thirst for oil, war, religious salvation - needs to be understood according to what he calls 'the demonogrammatical decoding of the Earth's body'

Race Realists posted:

no SHUT UP people need to read my c+ film class 1101 analysis!

Film discussion in the film discussion forum, my stars

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

thrawn527 posted:

I think the bigger problem here is that Anakin goes from "No, you can't murder him, it's wrong!" to, himself, murdering children like...minutes later.

I think people were expecting the turn to be more gradual than that. But it seems to be an on/off switch.

This bothered me too. But he just helped a sith lord kill a master jedi. Probably as rock bottom as rock bottom can get.

I imagine he completely embraced the evil because to do anything less at that point would have caused him to go insane with guilt/regret.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!

Steve2911 posted:

We need a 900 page thread evangelising Avatar in excruciating detail.

If someone could write about that film and show me interesting things about it that I didn't understand years ago, I'd be happy to read it.

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Mahoning posted:

Oh I forgot another cool tidbit from the 60 Minutes Overtime videos was JJ talking about the writing process with Lawrence Kasden. He talked about how he would have an idea and Kasden would be like "NO, you don't need to say that, the character doesn't need to say that. Just trust the characters."

I was both shocked that JJ thought this was a novel idea, and relieved that Kasden helped write this movie.

Kasden was an adorable salty old man 20 years ago. I can't imagine what he's like now.

Nelson Mandingo
Mar 27, 2005



thrawn527 posted:

I think the bigger problem here is that Anakin goes from "No, you can't murder him, it's wrong!" to, himself, murdering children like...minutes later.

I think people were expecting the turn to be more gradual than that. But it seems to be an on/off switch.

Honestly it was the previous film where I became completely disconnected from the original prequels at that point. Anakin gets back from murdering a whole tribe of Sand People, revealing to Padme that he not only killed the men but the women and the children too.

And then...nothing. She literally says nothing. It's almost forgotten in the next 2 minutes and its never brought up again. It's like she didn't care, and we shouldn't either. I remember my immersion was so broken that I was actually looking around the theater at people rather than watching the film.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

spacetoaster posted:

This bothered me too. But he just helped a sith lord kill a master jedi. Probably as rock bottom as rock bottom can get.

I imagine he completely embraced the evil because to do anything less at that point would have caused him to go insane with guilt/regret.

At that point, all he has left is the belief that he can still salvage the situation by going along with Sidious until he learns what he needs to learn, then killing him, taking over the galaxy, and establishing a benevolent dictatorship free of Jedi.

Rock bottom is when he thinks he hosed it up by killing his wife. And only when he discovers Luke does he again entertain the possibility of atonement. (Which he gets, but not in the way he expected.)

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.



spacetoaster posted:

This bothered me too. But he just helped a sith lord kill a master jedi. Probably as rock bottom as rock bottom can get.

Nah I think killing a classroom full of terrified children is worse.

Nelson Mandingo posted:

Honestly it was the previous film where I became completely disconnected from the original prequels at that point. Anakin gets back from murdering a whole tribe of Sand People, revealing to Padme that he not only killed the men but the women and the children too.

And then...nothing. She literally says nothing. It's almost forgotten in the next 2 minutes and its never brought up again. It's like she didn't care, and we shouldn't either. I remember my immersion was so broken that I was actually looking around the theater at people rather than watching the film.

Padme is a racist.

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

Steve2911 posted:

Nah I think killing a classroom full of terrified children is worse.

Nobody said it wasn't.

I'm just saying by that point he's already completely over to the dark side.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



Race Realists posted:

is.. is this some sort of bait?:wtc:

I think it's just more that people have already seem to have decided that Ep VII is the most awesome movie ever, so it's going to be hard to find a objective review.

Davros1 fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Dec 14, 2015

The Fuzzy Hulk
Nov 22, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT CROSSING THE STREAMS


In my opinion the new Star Wars movie will make a lot of money, not just in the box office but also all of the merchandizing.
- Peggy Hill

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kiimo
Jul 24, 2003

Is Annakin or Ben the terrorist?

  • Locked thread