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Zoran posted:Repeat after me: the Jedi are wrong. Their philosophy causes all sorts of problems in the prequels, and then Luke proves them wrong once and for all in the original trilogy. Are you sure? Luke doesn't hook up or anything. What specific things the jedi do or say are made dramatically ironic by Luke later? Zoran posted:I just watched the TPM one. Personally, I think the number one red flag in prequel criticism is when someone says that Jar-Jar was "not important." Annoying? Sure! Some of the jokes involving him fell flat? Yep! But not important? Qui-Gon sees value in him when no one else (including the audience and also all the other characters) does. Eventually, it's Jar-Jar who shows Amidala that the solution to her problem was in front of her the whole time. Padmé didn't need to go to Coruscant and she didn't need to put Palpatine in power, but she did, just because her society was too racist to even consider asking the Gungans for help. Padmé's breakthrough is in overcoming her own prejudices, and it only happens because Qui-Gon kept Jar-Jar around. Hold up, I gotta ask you to be patient with me because I haven't seen the prequels in a while. What solution to what problem? And when is she actually shown overcoming her prejudices? And does Qui-Gon ever give a reason for having Jar-Jar around?
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Dec 14, 2015 21:58
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Zoran posted:Qui-Gon didn't really need a navigator to get through the planet core. All the navigating shown on-screen is done by Qui-Gon himself. Obi-Wan wanted to leave Jar Jar behind in Otoh Gunga, and Qui-Gon wouldn't let him. And given future events Obi Wan was pretty justified.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:01
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computer parts posted:In the previous thread, someone posted a Lucas interview where he said verbatim that this line of thinking is why he had Maul cut in half so the audience knows he's dead and gone. Didn't the Extended Universe (Legends, and thank Zark for that) revive him, making him part-droid or sorting? I think I saw that somewhere, and it sure sounds right up the EU's alley doesn't it?
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Dec 14, 2015 22:01
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BigglesSWE posted:Didn't the Extended Universe (Legends, and thank Zark for that) revive him, making him part-droid or sorting? I think I saw that somewhere, and it sure sounds right up the EU's alley doesn't it? After 3 minutes on Wookiepedia, I think he's still alive at the time of The Force Awakens in the current canon, unless he died off screen or of natural causes.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:05
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Clone Wars brought Maul back as a part cyborg. Don't know what would have happened to him, since Disney cancelled it once they bought it.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:07
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Steve2911 posted:After 3 minutes on Wookiepedia, I think he's still alive at the time of The Force Awakens in the current canon, unless he died off screen or of natural causes. That's what I thought. Thanks. Would check myself but Wookiepedia is a real pain to go through on the cellphone.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:08
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Davros1 posted:Clone Wars brought Maul back as a part cyborg. Don't know what would have happened to him, since Disney cancelled it once they bought it. I thought sheev killed him.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:09
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Zoran posted:Repeat after me: the Jedi are wrong. Their philosophy causes all sorts of problems in the prequels, and then Luke proves them wrong once and for all in the original trilogy. How? Luke doesn't exactly swing his dick around in the OT, and he succumbed to mistakes that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wisely warned him about. Besides, just because someone fails doesn't mean they're wrong, sometimes it means they didn't do enough. Basically the Jedi warn Anakin to avoid attachments and emotion because those could be used in his downfall. What happens? Anakin makes attachments and gets emotionally invested and that ends up being his downfall. How is the order wrong about that? quote:I just watched the TPM one. Personally, I think the number one red flag in prequel criticism is when someone says that Jar-Jar was "not important." Annoying? Sure! Some of the jokes involving him fell flat? Yep! But not important? Qui-Gon sees value in him when no one else (including the audience and also all the other characters) does. Eventually, it's Jar-Jar who shows Amidala that the solution to her problem was in front of her the whole time. Padmé didn't need to go to Coruscant and she didn't need to put Palpatine in power, but she did, just because her society was too racist to even consider asking the Gungans for help. Padmé's breakthrough is in overcoming her own prejudices, and it only happens because Qui-Gon kept Jar-Jar around. If Jar Jar's role in the movie was to tell a queen that she had an army, then he was a waste of celluloid. Jar Jar's role in that movie was to provide comic relief to the audience first and foremost, story be damned. This scene which literally has no bearing on the story whatsoever, proves it quote:Right. I was trying to elaborate on my earlier pointPadmé trusts people she shouldn't until well after it's too late to fix her mistake. By ROTS she no longer is on Palpatine's side, but he seems to have like a 94% approval rating. She can't build an effective opposition anymore. Yes it deteriorates, but that doesn't mean it was a blind relationship the whole time. Padme debates with Palpatine in TPM, and she's not too happy about the proposal regarding the Army of the Republic. Jus' Sayin'.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:13
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Jewel Repetition posted:Are you sure? Luke doesn't hook up or anything. What specific things the jedi do or say are made dramatically ironic by Luke later? It's not so much that the Jedi are wrong on any specific point, its that they are overly dogmatic and also hypocritical on top of it. The fact that Anakin loves Padme isn't what leads to him falling to the Dark Side, its that he's been conditioned by the Jedi to think he's committing some sort of sin. The secrecy they force him and Padme into directly results in his vulnerability to Palpatine. The Jedi also live every day in a way that is against their own teachings in that they've attached themselves to the Republic to the point that they have to do certain things simply because its their official role. As for Luke, to succeed he has to learn how to allow emotional attachment into his life without letting it control him and lead him down the wrong path. He almost fails, but turns away from the Dark Side at the very last moment. The reason he is able to do this is because he trusts that his friends will succeed and loves his father. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Dec 14, 2015 |
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Dec 14, 2015 22:14
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Jewel Repetition posted:Are you sure? Luke doesn't hook up or anything. What specific things the jedi do or say are made dramatically ironic by Luke later? Luke's journey is about not just becoming a Jedi but using love to overcome evil. It's Luke's attachment to his long-lost father that leads him to ignore the advice of Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ, and he turns out to be right. quote:Hold up, I gotta ask you to be patient with me because I haven't seen the prequels in a while. What solution to what problem? And when is she actually shown overcoming her prejudices? And does Qui-Gon ever give a reason for having Jar-Jar around? Her planet has been invaded. Nobody in her inner circle even thinks of their neighbors, who happen to have a pretty decent-sized army and are also threatened by the Trade Federation. When Padmé returns to Naboo (after Jar Jar boasts that his people are proud warriors and reminds Padmé that her people don't like his), she seeks out the Gungan leadership and begs them for help. ("We are your humble servants.") Qui-Gon justifies keeping Jar Jar on Naboo by claiming he's needed to navigate through the undersea caverns, but that's a lie. We hear from Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon has a mysterious affinity for picking up "pathetic life form[s]." It's a habit of his. I'm of the opinion that we should take Qui-Gon view of things in these movies to be most correct. It's no coincidence that he's the one who unlocks the secret to immortality. Steve2911 posted:And given future events Obi Wan was pretty justified. Palpatine doesn't make the mistake of seeing Jar Jar as useless. The moment anyone asks Jar Jar for help, he's pretty happy to oblige. Sometimes he fucks up.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:14
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Basebf555 posted:It's not so much that the Jedi are wrong on any specific point, its that they are overly dogmatic and also hypocritical on top of it. The fact that Anakin loves Padme isn't what leads to him falling to the Dark Side, its that he's been conditioned by the Jedi to think he's committing some sort of sin. The secrecy they force him and Padme into directly results in his vulnerability to Palpatine. if they Jedi were cool with them being married, he'd still have the vision of her dying. The Jedi would say 'well that's poo poo but we can't help sorry' and Palpatine would still lie and say he can save her. Same thing happens.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:20
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Qui-Gon acts wise but speaks foolish. He parrots Jedi Order dogma but trusts his instincts and hears the will of the Force. He does his job, but when the situation goes off the rails, he starts doing the right thing instead. Keep this in mind.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:21
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Steve2911 posted:if they Jedi were cool with them being married, he'd still have the vision of her dying. The Jedi would say 'well that's poo poo but we can't help sorry' and Palpatine would still lie and say he can save her. Same thing happens. Had he been able to talk his problems out with Obi Wan or Yoda there's a very high chance they would have sniffed out what Palpatine was doing and things would have gone much differently. He doesn't because he doesn't trust them and assumes they won't even listen to what he as to say with an open mind.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:22
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Without the Jedi repressing him and his attachments, Anakin has no reason to hate them, and one less way to rationalize doing what he knows to be wrong.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:24
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Let's all not gloss over the fact that Qui-Gon basically introduced the galaxy to Darth Vader and Jar-Jar Binks. Qui-Gon is the actual villain in the star wars universe.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:27
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Stairmaster posted:I thought sheev killed him. Palpatine had Maul captured, but alive.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:29
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Basebf555 posted:Had he been able to talk his problems out with Obi Wan or Yoda there's a very high chance they would have sniffed out what Palpatine was doing and things would have gone much differently. He doesn't because he doesn't trust them and assumes they won't even listen to what he as to say with an open mind. Anakin basically tells Yoda everything (without actually saying anything directly) while sweating and almost crying and Yoda doesn't make any attempt to connect the dots. What I'm saying is that the whole dogmatic anti-emotion thing doesn't really make any difference when they're all ridiculously blind to what's going on regardless (and not in a 'Ah-ha! They're so blind!' way, but in a 'Real people are not this dumb, even Trump supporters' way).
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Dec 14, 2015 22:33
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Bongo Bill posted:Qui-Gon acts wise but speaks foolish. He parrots Jedi Order dogma but trusts his instincts and hears the will of the Force. He does his job, but when the situation goes off the rails, he starts doing the right thing instead. Keep this in mind. But he's the only one who truly understands the Force because he's the first who is The Force brings back as a ghost. He goes to Force heaven and tells Yoda and Obi-Wan how things really should be. He's Jedi Colton Burpo.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:35
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The movie will be not good enough to love but not bad enough to hate either. I'm secretly hoping it dissapoints so people complain about it for years afterwards in an entertaining fashion.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:38
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Zoran posted:Luke's journey is about not just becoming a Jedi but using love to overcome evil. It's Luke's attachment to his long-lost father that leads him to ignore the advice of Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ, and he turns out to be right. Isn't the one where he ignores their advice Empire? And he turns out to be wrong and walking into a trap? Basebf555 posted:It's not so much that the Jedi are wrong on any specific point, its that they are overly dogmatic and also hypocritical on top of it. The fact that Anakin loves Padme isn't what leads to him falling to the Dark Side, its that he's been conditioned by the Jedi to think he's committing some sort of sin. The secrecy they force him and Padme into directly results in his vulnerability to Palpatine. You can look at the plot and say that, but I don't think the conclusion really fits with the storytelling. Maybe it's because it's been so long since I saw it but I have a really strong memory of the move impressing upon you that Anakin's downfall is more or less caused by wanting to gently caress Padme. Basebf555 posted:As for Luke, to succeed he has to learn how to allow emotional attachment into his life without letting it control him and lead him down the wrong path. He almost fails, but turns away from the Dark Side at the very last moment. The reason he is able to do this is because he trusts that his friends will succeed and loves his father. Aren't we talking about different kinds of love though? Like, the love Luke has is Christian-style, which I don't think the jedi are against, and the love Anakin has is specifically romantic. Zoran posted:Her planet has been invaded. Nobody in her inner circle even thinks of their neighbors, who happen to have a pretty decent-sized army and are also threatened by the Trade Federation. When Padmé returns to Naboo (after Jar Jar boasts that his people are proud warriors and reminds Padmé that her people don't like his), she seeks out the Gungan leadership and begs them for help. ("We are your humble servants.") Okay that makes sense. I'd still give the Belated reworks a chance though. It's just trying to make the story more tightly focused.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:39
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Fred Breakfast posted:If Jar Jar's role in the movie was to tell a queen that she had an army, then he was a waste of celluloid. Jar Jar's role in that movie was to provide comic relief to the audience first and foremost, story be damned. This scene which literally has no bearing on the story whatsoever, proves it Jar Jar is not just there to say something important at one point in the story. He's the classic fool archetype. He acts silly and makes people dismiss him out of hand, but then it turns out that he has vital knowledge that nobody else considered. The reason to do this is so that the audience makes the same mistake the main characters do: they assume this character is pointless and are surprised by his sudden importance. He makes us reevaluate our own prejudices. Of course, he's also there for comedy. Now you might feel that Jar Jar overdoes it. Some people find him so annoying that they actually start to hate him. For what it's worth, when I watched TPM the other day, I thought the poop joke was kinda lame and the fart joke sucked, but the power coupling mishap made me laugh out loud. Jewel Repetition posted:Isn't the one where he ignores their advice Empire? And he turns out to be wrong and walking into a trap? He actually ignores their advice in both. In Empire, they don't want him to run off untrained and sacrifice everything he and his friends have worked for to save his friends' lives. They've lived through this story before; Luke's mistake is a version of Anakin's. In Jedi, Obi-Wan and Yoda think Luke can defeat the Emperor, but they're adamant that Vader is too far gone and can't be redeemed. Zoran fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Dec 14, 2015 |
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Dec 14, 2015 22:39
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weekly font posted:Colton Burpo.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:47
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Jewel Repetition posted:Aren't we talking about different kinds of love though? Like, the love Luke has is Christian-style, which I don't think the jedi are against, and the love Anakin has is specifically romantic. I would say it's the reverse, or at least it is Luke who fails to make a proper ethical commitment.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:55
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Jewel Repetition posted:Aren't we talking about different kinds of love though? Like, the love Luke has is Christian-style, which I don't think the jedi are against, and the love Anakin has is specifically romantic. Actually, I think it's more the other way around. The Jedi aren't to abstain from sexual relationships...... just to abstain from "attachment". Which agape love would definitely constitute.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:56
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a starwar betamax posted:Actually, I think it's more the other way around. The Jedi aren't to abstain from sexual relationships...... just to abstain from "attachment". Which agape love would definitely constitute. Do they bang space hookers then?
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Dec 14, 2015 22:57
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In Star Wars everyone is a neuter except for freaks like Leia and Han Solo, and Luke's parents. Nobody says anything to their faces, of course, but they're all thinking how weird it is to kiss and junk.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:57
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starry skies above posted:The movie will be not good enough to love but not bad enough to hate either.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:05
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Jewel Repetition posted:You can look at the plot and say that, but I don't think the conclusion really fits with the storytelling. Maybe it's because it's been so long since I saw it but I have a really strong memory of the move impressing upon you that Anakin's downfall is more or less caused by wanting to gently caress Padme. By the time he becomes Darth Vader he's already hosed Padme plenty of times and married her. Its the consequences of that relationship that lead to his final downfall, and those consequences wouldn't exist if the Jedi weren't so focused on dogma and playing politics.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:14
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Jack Gladney posted:In Star Wars everyone is a neuter except for freaks like Leia and Han Solo, and Luke's parents. Nobody says anything to their faces, of course, but they're all thinking how weird it is to kiss and junk. But what about Lando? Having just rewatched TPM, I just want to say that Williams' score was wasted on the battle droids. When they march up to fight the Gungans in their clusterfuck of a stakeless game of patty cake, it's to an imposing and awesome march that nearly rivals the Imperial March in how loving metal it is. The droids in general and the following battle would have been better suited by something involving kazoos. Maybe a slide whistle.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:20
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I'd like to think that Williams could make kazoos work as a menacing instrument if he wanted to.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:25
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The Empire Strikes Back is so dang pretty.           (Luke with one foot on the light, and one foot in the dark. I like it)   
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Dec 14, 2015 23:33
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I watched the original series so now I'm watching the prequels. The phantom menace is a lot prettier than I remember it being, all the CGI is good apart from Jar Jar, some of the aliens and the battle droids. It's a shame every scene with Jar Jar is unbearable because it's an okay movie outside of that. Also drat all the loving altered dialogue in return of the jedi is bizzare.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:38
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hemale in pain posted:I watched the original series so now I'm watching the prequels. The phantom menace is a lot prettier than I remember it being, all the CGI is good apart from Jar Jar, some of the aliens and the battle droids. It's a shame every scene with Jar Jar is unbearable because it's an okay movie outside of that.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:45
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I'm still at a loss as to why they changed Luke saying "You're lucky you don't taste very good" to Artoo after he gets spit out of the swamp to "You're lucky to get out of there".
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Dec 14, 2015 23:59
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WatermelonGun posted:Where's Lando this is bullshit. Billy Dee Williams is barely mobile.
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Dec 15, 2015 00:02
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kiimo posted:I'm still at a loss as to why they changed Luke saying "You're lucky you don't taste very good" to Artoo after he gets spit out of the swamp to "You're lucky to get out of there". Yeah, the first line is way better and makes sense. He got spat out because he's a mud-encrusted tin can. The second line is just...flat.
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Dec 15, 2015 00:07
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Zoran posted:He actually ignores their advice in both. Yeah I liked it being about ultimate forgiveness a lot more than I liked the prequels being about Buddhist detachment. But in the end I'm still not convinced that the prequels weren't strongly saying Anakin's relationship was his downfall or were promoting love or maturity in any way. kiimo posted:I'm still at a loss as to why they changed Luke saying "You're lucky you don't taste very good" to Artoo after he gets spit out of the swamp to "You're lucky to get out of there". What the gently caress.
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Dec 15, 2015 00:19
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Steve2911 posted:Do they bang space hookers then? The OP of every Star Wars EU megathread since 2004 posted:
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Dec 15, 2015 00:25
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kiimo posted:I'm still at a loss as to why they changed Luke saying "You're lucky you don't taste very good" to Artoo after he gets spit out of the swamp to "You're lucky to get out of there". IIRC this was a technical issue they ran into when making the special editions. The original recording got damaged somehow, so they had to use a recording from a different version of the scene. I could be wrong, though.
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Dec 15, 2015 00:29
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Timby posted:Billy Dee Williams is barely mobile. He has arthritis in his everything.
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Dec 15, 2015 00:33
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