|
jivjov posted:I'm not saying that the choice is "remain evil or die", I'm saying that there are consequences for evil, and Vader's crimes were extensive. He did a good thing, killing Sheev and saving Luke. But that doesn't fix 99% of the other things he did. It's about the ability of others to forgive the evildoer, not erasing the evil that they doed. Something in there also about deciding that it's possible to stop doing evil.
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 02:26
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 22:32 |
|
|
MisterBibs posted:These are not things that make someone threatening. These are things that directly take away from being threatening. These are things that generate pity. I think that "threatening" is a good word to use to describe a threat.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 02:26
|
|
|
Maxwell Lord posted:Similarly I feel like we're missing out on just what went wrong after Endor. Obviously there were still going to be people loyal to the Empire, but what enabled them, who's this Snoke guy, where are they getting all this cool star-destroying stuff? The prequels are about what went wrong. But in a more plot-centric sense, Rey's vision of the past is ripe to have some context added, especially if Obi-Wan Kenobi has voiceover in it. The broader political context seems like it can be figured out easily enough by filling in the blanks from real-world history. The war continued. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Dec 20, 2015 |
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 06:01
|
|
|
SeANMcBAY posted:Is this true? Not a spoiler really but I wonder if we'll see any force ghosts ever again. Obi-Wan and Anakin would be awful but I could accept Yoda if it's done right. Obi-Wan's ghost already called out Rey's name when she was having her vision. Kylo Ren implied he had achieved a similar sort of communion with Anakin. The setup has been done.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 06:13
|
|
|
I think that Mark Hamill is a much better actor now than he was 30 years ago.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 06:55
|
|
|
Wandle Cax posted:I would be surprised if this trilogy directly references the prequels in any way. It already has, and it's not going to stop. Which is a good thing, because the prequels are good.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 07:35
|
|
|
computer parts posted:I don't know how you could assume any differently. Because it'd be a huge dick move to abandon her on Jakku, which is the worst planet in the galaxy. And he's not that much of a dick.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 08:19
|
|
|
Beefstew posted:It was a dick move to leave Luke on Tatooine. Maybe he's trying to recreate his "success", since apparently traditional, institutional Jedi training leads to school shooters like Ren adn Anakin. Maybe he thought she had to grow into it. Well, the difference is Obi-Wan was a dick, and I don't think we're meant to understand that Luke was also a dick after all despite everything. It'd be more than just a solution to a mystery if that turns out to be true. There's another reason why I think that, but I need to go watch it again to make sure I'm remembering the line correctly. Please look forward to it.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 08:27
|
|
|
The title refers to the Force awakening in Rey to call her to her destiny, but also to the Force awakening R2-D2, who had been meditating, and to a lesser extent to Finn awakening (prior to that raid he wasn't really conscious.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 09:25
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:the lightsaber of theseus it's the lightsaber of anakin idiot
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 19:46
|
|
|
DeusExMachinima posted:Still mega annoyed though that the not-Empire apparently can either hyperspace entire planets on demand or Starkiller has an FTL anti-star/planet beam that can hit anywhere from anywhere. Why doe this annoy you?
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 20:18
|
|
|
DeusExMachinima posted:It's kinda like the interstellar teleporter Khan uses in Star Trek into Darkness or bringing people back with his super blood. You just put Starfleet out of a job and destroyed all in-universe suspense because as long as you aren't vaporized you can be brought back. Try some of these answers: Because sometimes they need to do something to a planet other than destroy it, or destroy something other than a planet. Because they may need to defend the base from enemy attack. Because they only have one such weapon and it's brand new (this film depicts the first and last time it's ever used). Because it's expensive to make, expensive to use, and can't be fired often. The Death Star could travel through hyperspace as well, you'll recall.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
DeusExMachinima posted:The blades are made of energy. They're weightless. That's what they did. They did exactly what you're asking why they didn't do it. Starkiller Base was hidden in an otherwise uninhabited system. Once the existence of the weapon was revealed, the Resistance knew it would only be a matter of time before they were targeted, because Kylo Ren would likely get the location of the secret Resistance base out of Rey. (They did not previously know the location of the base.) If Finn hadn't told the Resistance the location of Starkiller Base and its weakness, the First Order could have continued to destroy planets with impunity. Their fleet appears to be small. The First Order is not the Galactic Empire; rather than a whole boardroom full of top brass, they've just got one General, Hux.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 20, 2015 20:38
|
|
|
I didn't notice the first time in the scene where Kylo is trying to read Rey's mind to get the fragment of the map she saw, he says "You know I can take what I want" and then he sees Rey's dream of an island in an ocean. But neither of them realize that is exactly what he wants - Luke's exact location, which Rey had dreamed of.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 03:09
|
|
|
One thing I liked about Rey was how she started developing weird psychic powers while captured and she decided to just roll with it, and it was only when Kylo Ren was trying to get her to stand down that she realized "Oh, right, the Force."
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 05:03
|
|
|
Bargearse posted:I read that as more like her saying "I have no talent with the Force, but I've been around enough to understand the way it works." I agree. A similar idea was introduced by Lor San Tekka, Max von Sydow's character who dies at the beginning. Apparently he's a member of some sort of Church of the Force?
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 05:16
|
|
|
teagone posted:I'd assume a Jedi's empathy would be much more stronger and more personal, like you know how Leia was when Han died, or how Obi-Wan felt when everyone on Alderaan died. Or how Yoda felt when Anakin was being a dipshit and killing people like a loving psycho. Something like that. I think a different kind of "empathy" was implied. Jedi can sense feelings, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily better at caring about those feelings. It was, you may recall, a major contributing factor to the reason why Anakin wanted to murder them all, and to why this came as a surprise to them.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 06:03
|
|
|
The prequel callbacks tend to be more abstract, like the continuation of Attack of the Clones' water motif, and the deletion by a Jedi of a portion of a map in order to hide something in the deleted area, and an Order led by an alien of unusual size that kidnaps and brainwashes children so that they will fight for Imperial ideals, and most of the details of Kylo Ren's backstory being implied by his attempts to imitate Anakin's.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 06:29
|
|
|
GonSmithe posted:Come on now. He's so effective as a character because he is Anakin done "right." He's threatening (to everyone but MrBibs), yet petulant. Baby-faced, but out of control. He has an enormous amount of baggage, and is believable in all of it. Without knowing the backstory of the man he worships, you might think he is trying to be a badass and failing. Knowing who Anakin is lets you know that he is trying, succeeding, and surpassing his God. Knowing Anakin's backstory is how you know he is failing to copy him. He idolizes his grandfather but he doesn't understand him.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 06:35
|
|
|
turtlecrunch posted:The perspective on the pan also makes him look like a tiny person compared to Rey. There, now enjoy the ending REALLY being spoiled for you forever. Now imagine Luke trying the old Crazy Hermit Yoda routine on her immediately afterward.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 07:01
|
|
|
Lord Krangdar posted:One thing I always found strange was as a kid I really thought that was just a routine, like Yoda was just loving with Luke. I never imagined that was supposed to just be how he talked. It was both. He used unconventional grammar, but he was also loving with Luke to try to dissuade him.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 07:03
|
|
|
The part where Obi-Wan calls out to Rey during her vision when she touches the lightsaber introduces interesting possibilities. That wasn't a memory Anakin or Luke could've had. The dead, even those whom she never knew in life, are calling out to her. I hope it ends in a big ol' Force Ghost Parade with Liam Neeson as the guy in front waving a baton in Episode IX. Metaphorically.
Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Dec 21, 2015 |
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 08:13
|
|
|
Unzip and Attack posted:So what's the prevailing theory? Is Rey Luke's daughter? That is the most annoyingly common one. I don't think it's well-supported. The only thing that suggests that Rey has prior connections to any established character is subtext, and that same subtext specifically distinguishes Luke from her family. The line is that she knows her family is never returning, but someone else (e.g. Luke) might return instead. Plus, it'd be a huge dick move to abandon a kid on a planet worse than Tatooine in the care of a junk dealer worse than Watto, and while Obi-Wan might have been that much of a dick, a large part of the original trilogy was about how Luke was not as much of a dick as Obi-Wan. It'd be a somewhat awkward development.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 08:31
|
|
|
Well, as a minor point in all that, in the lightsaber duel, Snoke ordered him to capture her and bring her to him for training, which is why he made that offer.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 09:07
|
|
|
Lunatic Pathos posted:True, but it felt to me a little like Vader offering Luke the opportunity to depose the Emporer. He has also just been told by Han that Snoke would use him up and discard him. Same as Vaders motivation to train Luke himself and take over. He killed Han to reaffirm to himself his faith in Snoke and his ethical commitment to the Dark Side. He seems desperately loyal, and I'm interested to learn why. That loyalty is a big difference between himself and his grandfather, and a big difference between his understanding of his grandfather and the truth. Very few people knew Vader was plotting against the Emperor.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 09:15
|
|
|
The MSJ posted:It's pretty cool that you can hear Sir Alec Guiness saying "Rey" as well. Nah, that was Ewan MacGregor.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 18:46
|
|
|
Mahoning posted:No, actually JJ has confirmed that they used Alec Guinness, in addition to Ewan McGregor. I guess my information is out of date.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 18:50
|
|
|
Lord Hydronium posted:I've never really understood the complaints about the politics in the prequels. There's, like, one mention in the opening crawl of TPM, then later there's the Senate scene whose whole point is about how Amidala wants to cut through all the bureaucratic bullshit and is fed up with talk of committees and procedures, and then the rest of the political scenes are Palpatine being an entertaining dick. You'd think from some comments that half the movie is a dissertation on Republic trade law. Here's what's to understand: people dislike them, and don't understand that their own expectations are the reason why, so they instead rationalize their dislike using untrue memes.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 20:34
|
|
|
The idea that this Star War is a proxy war in a larger cold war seemed pretty well-communicated to me. What is less clear is the status of the First Order compared to the rest of the galaxy. They seem small to me. Only one Star Destroyer, and only one top brass man instead of a whole conference room full (and him rather young at that). The impression is that they're upstarts, just very well-organized and ambitious bandits going around and pillaging materiel and personnel from lawless systems that the war-weary Republic and Empire cannot or will not protect.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 22:08
|
|
|
MrMojok posted:Yeah, this was totally loving Abrams-stupid. How does hyperspace travel work, such that it makes this impossible?
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 22:58
|
|
|
Kurzon posted:I also like how Star Wars forgets how computers work and nobody thinks of making a copy of the map. R2 made a copy but that's because he's enlightened. No Star War has ever taken place during an information age, however, and that's good.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 21, 2015 23:10
|
|
|
Zodack posted:In the EU you got hosed up if you did that according to Wookiepedia Ah yes, Wookieepedia is how you can tell the plot event is stupid.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2015 00:03
|
|
|
He fired it a few times, but it was never important to show that it was powerful so that a character who later survived being shot by it could be communicated as both really tough and badly wounded.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2015 00:08
|
|
|
Zodack posted:I was more pointing out that it's stupid to gripe about it because it's something that only exists in the EU. Wookiepedia is ridiculous but also maintained by people far more dedicated to random dumb poo poo than I am I think that you and I agree on this.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2015 02:03
|
|
|
PT6A posted:You forgot midichlorians, which are actually a part of the PT that needs to be completely eliminated from canon because it's just that lovely. Everything else was a decent idea poorly executed, but midichlorians are just an abomination. It took The Force from something unique and mystical and reduced it to something quantifiable and joyless. The important part about Midichlorians isn't that they existed. It's that the Jedi Order believed they existed. Similarly, how do you think Yoda became wise if not by making mistakes such as brainwashing children and starting the Clone War? The secret to the prequels, and it's not much of a secret but apparently some people still need it told, is that the Jedi Order were the villains.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2015 02:28
|
|
|
People might think that she's a Mary Sue because she's a millennial who gets a job offer.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2015 05:05
|
|
|
Cnut the Great posted:For my part I still don't get why even prequel defenders have such a hard time accepting midi-chlorians. There's no problem with midichlorians. But the emphasis on a symbiont that bestows you psychic powers is a character flaw for this reason: they're at best a symbol for, an example of, the actual message of the Force as a philosophy. It's the Order's preoccupation with the fact that they can see the future and do sweet backflips, at the expense of their awareness that all life is bound together. They focus on the part that can be measured empirically, and the power that it can bring them, instead of learning anything from the midichlorians.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2015 07:36
|
|
|
A character saying a clunky thing is not necessarily a flaw in the script. It reveals an aspect of their character. It means they're the kind of person who would say that kind of thing. That said, the dialog is a weakness of Attack of the Clones. George Lucas will admit his dialog is functional at best. The problem is that the story that dialog is supporting is a mystery, disguised as another mystery, with characters' motivations rather than their actions being the object of suspense. The big twist at the end, recall, was that Dooku had been working for Sidious all along. A story like that benefits from lines with heavy subtext, lines with a lot of double meanings, lines that conceal to the other characters but reveal to the audience. I feel like in order to communicate the necessary amount of information, the script basically duplicated many of the conversations, where a leaner script might have combined them into one, in which literal plot facts and multiple participants' perspectives are expressed with a greater economy. That could aid with comprehension.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2015 20:36
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:Luke is a nice person who comes to really care about other people besides than himself. He starts off a little whiny and wanting more, but he eventually risks his life for his new friends. That makes him a hero. Anakin is a nice person who starts off caring about other people than himself and risking his life for them.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2015 20:40
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 22:32 |
|
|
CelticPredator posted:Yeah, Phantom Menace Anakin is fine. Sort of. Him and Attack of the Clones Anakin are completely different characters. He's repressed and horny in Attack of the Clones, but he's still the same kid. A daredevil, disarmingly honest, a deep-seated core of rage that's only revealed when he's made to dwell on his powerlessness. Check out the line in The Phantom Menace where he's describing what will happen to him if he tries to run away. Specifically, look at Jake Lloyd's face.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2015 20:44
|
|