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magic missile is now working as intended
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Dec 24, 2015 18:08
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Bob le Moche posted:Chinese citizens never had a credit rating before now. It isn't a credit rating and does not function like a credit rating.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:56
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Warbadger posted:It isn't a credit rating and does not function like a credit rating. It is not the same - we have freedom they do not. No why.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:10
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McDowell posted:It is not the same - we have freedom they do not. No why. Do you know the credit scores of your friends and immediate relatives? What about your co-workers and neighbors? Does your association with them impact your credit score? Does your credit score track debt, credit, and similar fiscally-related factors or does it track your political alignment with the government? I mean I was pretty sure my credit score wouldn't go down if I wrote an article criticizing the Obama administration's handling of politics in the Middle East on a website or re-tweeted an article about some local city government corruption issue. But I guess it must because clearly these two systems are the same thing! Warbadger fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 20:34
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Warbadger posted:Do you know the credit scores of your friends and immediate relatives? What about your co-workers and neighbors? Does your association with them impact your credit score? 1 & 2 - If I was snooping/rude I could get a report with the effort/money. If I wanted to employ someone I could get their credit score when considering them. 3 - If social media starts being used for credit scores your associations could have an impact. People have pointed out that having a public leaderboard could encourage terrorism so it will likely go away in favor of more opacity.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:44
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McDowell posted:1 & 2 - If I was snooping/rude I could get a report with the effort/money. If I wanted to employ someone I could get their credit score when considering them. So your answer is no, you do not in fact know these things and are aware that there are barriers between yourself and viewing these things. You also appear to be aware that currently the Chinese system in question functions differently! Why yes, if credit scores worked like the Chinese system being discussed as a social media device they might be more similar! Good observation! The problem with your argument today is that is not how credit scores work. Go ahead and answer the second question, I'm sure it won't be hard to show that a system tracking and rewarding political alignment while penalizing criticism is the same thing as a system that tracks debt payment and fiscal stability. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 20:50
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Blind adherance to authority and acceptance of an involuntary system of behavior control is bad. The social contract could be much better for individuals.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:55
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The way credit reporting works is pretty hosed up too, but that is for another thread. This is for a system of social control that has been gameified to make it more appealing.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:50
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Whether or not Sesame Credit is similar to the US credit score, doesn't really matter. Fact is, Sesame Credit is going to have huge repercussions for the Chinese society after it becomes mandatory.
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Dec 24, 2015 23:12
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Friendly Tumour posted:Whether or not Sesame Credit is similar to the US credit score, doesn't really matter. Fact is, Sesame Credit is going to have huge repercussions for the Chinese society after it becomes mandatory. Probably not, given how the Great Firewall has turned out.
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Dec 24, 2015 23:33
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computer parts posted:Probably not, given how the Great Firewall has turned out. I don't see how that has anything to do with the subject, but thanks for your completely worthless opinion regardless.
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Dec 24, 2015 23:57
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Electronic connections can completely change how individuals engage in commerce and within institutions. We need a new series of Amendments that integrate these technologies into the state - setting a standard for digital rights.
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Dec 25, 2015 00:05
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Warbadger posted:Do you know the credit scores of your friends and immediate relatives? What about your co-workers and neighbors? Does your association with them impact your credit score? Powercrazy posted:The way credit reporting works is pretty hosed up too, but that is for another thread. This is for a system of social control that has been gameified to make it more appealing. Um except all of this stuff about being punished by your friends for not praising the great leader on facebook is made up bullshit that that youtube video irresponsibly repeated without digging for any sources. This article talks about what is actually happening and it's completely different: https://www.techinasia.com/china-citizen-scores-credit-system-orwellian Everyone gobbles that crap up though because look at these orientals they are so obedient and live in an authoritarian dystopia and don't even care they're like robots or ants or something, unlike us proud people of liberty who are totally in control of our lives and are free to determine our own destiny because society doesn't exist and we're all just individuals or whatever Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Dec 25, 2015 |
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Dec 25, 2015 07:03
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Friendly Tumour posted:I don't see how that has anything to do with the subject, but thanks for your completely worthless opinion regardless. Another mandatory social control tool is not relevant?
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Dec 25, 2015 07:09
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Guys I heard that in China they take children away from their parents during weekdays from a very young age, and make them go through mandatory years of indoctrination by specialized state functionaries. They force them to memorize what the government wants and are constantly being made to prove their commitment through "tests" administered to them, all throughout they get rated and evaluated with numbers that only serve to determine how fit individuals are as potential workers for different industries. If you obey and go along you get rewarded but if you resist you get punished and your scores get lowered. Everyone in China grows up with such "grade" attached to them that determine who you are allowed to become WOW!!! O:
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Dec 25, 2015 07:26
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The only people who think that Chinese society is even in the same galaxy in terms of human rights or free thought has clearly never lived there. We are talking about a place where the very concept of human rights is directly proscribed by the government.
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Dec 25, 2015 08:21
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Bob le Moche posted:Guys I heard that in China they take children away from their parents during weekdays from a very young age, and make them go through mandatory years of indoctrination by specialized state functionaries. They force them to memorize what the government wants and are constantly being made to prove their commitment through "tests" administered to them, all throughout they get rated and evaluated with numbers that only serve to determine how fit individuals are as potential workers for different industries. If you obey and go along you get rewarded but if you resist you get punished and your scores get lowered. Everyone in China grows up with such "grade" attached to them that determine who you are allowed to become WOW!!! O: I can go get you a screen if you want to give us the powerpoint presentation. You seem to have the projector already.
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Dec 25, 2015 10:56
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computer parts posted:Another mandatory social control tool is not relevant? Well if you can't even say how, then yeah.
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Dec 25, 2015 10:58
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EasternBronze posted:The only people who think that Chinese society is even in the same galaxy in terms of human rights or free thought has clearly never lived there. We are talking about a place where the very concept of human rights is directly proscribed by the government. Quite. It's not as if there are other governments that have documents pertaining to human rights and what they are and that no two can seem to come to a consensus about what exactly they are. I apparently have more human rights if I move to America (including the right to own a gun) and less if I move elsewhere. This is in no way a political tool created by governments, of course, only those crazy orientals would do something like that.
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Dec 25, 2015 10:59
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Ddraig posted:Quite. It's not as if there are other governments that have documents pertaining to human rights and what they are and that no two can seem to come to a consensus about what exactly they are. If you want to handwave away your right to religious freedom and not being forced to incriminate yourself as "a political tool" feel free (pun intended), but I suspect you've never lived anywhere where these rights aren't a core part of society. There are plenty of western societies that were like China is today, like Nazi Germany and the USSR. Trying to take criticisms of China's government and twisting it into some kind of racist stereotyping is grasping at straws.
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Dec 25, 2015 12:44
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Anything bad happening in china is obviously just racis stereotyping accordinf to the stalinist retards that populate dnd. and Amerikkka is jsut as bad if not worse and furthermore
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Dec 25, 2015 12:49
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Certainly when I think about people who endure terrible lives in discriminatory conditions, the Han Chinese are the first in my mind, especially those living in America who disproportionately attend elite universities.
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Dec 25, 2015 12:55
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Ddraig posted:Quite. It's not as if there are other governments that have documents pertaining to human rights and what they are and that no two can seem to come to a consensus about what exactly they are. stop with the lovely sarcasm already, it's not nearly as funny or clever as you think. and no, the Chinese government is in fact a lot worse about human rights than America. there is universal consensus on that by pretty much every organization that gives a poo poo about things like that, going by such factors as "you won't be thrown in jail and tortured for saying bad things about the head of state", which yeah i suppose might be more nebulous a thing on your own personal horribleness scale compared to, uh, gun ownership amongst private citizens, I guess.
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Dec 25, 2015 13:00
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In China no one has human rights - in the US only citizens have human rights with occasional exceptions.
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Dec 25, 2015 13:22
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Friendly Tumour posted:Anything bad happening in china is obviously just racis stereotyping accordinf to the stalinist retards that populate dnd. and Amerikkka is jsut as bad if not worse and furthermore it's cool how you're still talking as if that youtube video is talking about something real as opposed to what is basically a work of science fiction originating from fraudulent journalism
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Dec 25, 2015 16:48
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Bob le Moche posted:it's cool how you're still talking as if that youtube video is talking about something real as opposed to what is basically a work of science fiction originating from fraudulent journalism Please go poo poo up some other thread with your racist projections and crap satire.
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Dec 25, 2015 17:33
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Idk if this is real but if you didn't see this coming from like, the first time you heard about FitBit then I don't know what to tell you.
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Dec 25, 2015 20:05
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Bob le Moche posted:Um except all of this stuff about being punished by your friends for not praising the great leader on facebook is made up bullshit that that youtube video irresponsibly repeated without digging for any sources. This article talks about what is actually happening and it's completely different: https://www.techinasia.com/china-citizen-scores-credit-system-orwellian In case other posters intend to ignore your link, I would like to note that even the piece you quote has this to say: quote:Given that, it seems likely that some of the ACLU’s fears might eventually come true: if the government wants its credit system to enforce social morality, then collecting data on everything from political activities to purchase histories might well be on the table. And there’s little in the Chinese government’s history to suggest it would be unwilling to construct such a credit system and make it mandatory. Seems to me more likely that the ACLU has access to specifics that this blogger doesn't, and that is why they are making the connection with Alibaba and Tencent. But even if they pulled that part of it out of their asses, there is room for concern for the reasons people are stating, rather than because of any kind of racism towards Chinese people or South-East Asians in general.
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Dec 25, 2015 20:14
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Seems to me more likely that the ACLU has access to specifics that this blogger doesn't, and that is why they are making the connection with Alibaba and Tencent. But even if they pulled that part of it out of their asses, there is room for concern for the reasons people are stating, rather than because of any kind of racism towards Chinese people or South-East Asians in general. The original ACLU article was actually amended with this: ACLU posted:I’m starting to hear questions raised about the accuracy of the source on which I based this blog post. I did include a passing caution about my lack of direct knowledge of the source’s accuracy, but I wish I had been more explicit in offering that caution given the language and cultural barriers between the United States and China, and the scarcity of reporting on this system by professional journalists with direct knowledge of Chinese society. I hope to see such reporting soon. That said, the Chinese scoring systems still sound plenty bad, and we all still need to consider the danger that our own institutions will drift toward such systems and their potential abuses. Not only do I agree that there's room for concern, but in my first post in this thread I referred to what is happening as serving a "social control" function and wrote : "There's totally ways in which this could become really scary and go much further in the future" The other points I'm trying to make are: - Stories like this one spread and are readily accepted as fact without checking because they confirm unconscious biases and play into existing narratives about China, this is an observable phenomenon irregardless of whether the story actually *is* true or not. See also that story a while ago about how beijing is a cyberpunk hellscape because to make people forget about all the smog they put up giant screens displaying clear skies, when it was really just... a normal ad display. - We've already been living in what is in many ways a dystopian society of control for a long time, but we're mostly blinded to that structural reality by the ideological appartus (in itself a control method) and are only able to conceive of other societies as being unfree.
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Dec 25, 2015 21:52
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they also considered it a cyberpunk hellscape due to smog levels not seen since the killer great smog of London, combined with a neurotic one party police state that tries to censor that time twenty six years ago they went full lethal on a public square full of pro democracy demonstrators by having a web graphic of an upset cute panda or whatever tell you how sad it is that you're looking up wrongthink related phrases. other than that it's a pretty uncalled for label, yeah.
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Dec 25, 2015 23:05
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I for one am nevertheless grateful there is still 'room for concern'. I heavens for that small concession.
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Dec 25, 2015 23:17
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If by "stereotypes of China" we mean "basic, observable facts" than yes, I am more likely to believe bad things about the Chinese government. China has basically every problem America does except 10X worse and anyone who talks about it or tries to change it is subject to arrest and/or death. If this forum were based in China talking about Chinese society it would have been shut down years ago and its members spirited away.
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Dec 26, 2015 00:20
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I guess I find it hard to see it as anything but the worst kind of hand-wringing liberal hypocrisy when people fret and worry about how bad those inscrutable Chinese are when there are equal, if not bigger, violations of human rights closer to home that are completely glossed over, presumably because they happen to "scary people", as if human rights are not something that should be given universally. The UK and the US are two signatories to the UDHR yet you can find many, many examples of these two countries wilfully breaking this whenever it's politically convenient to do so. That's the thing about human rights: They're for everyone, all the time, or they're for no-one, ever.
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Dec 26, 2015 13:16
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Ddraig posted:I guess I find it hard to see it as anything but the worst kind of hand-wringing liberal hypocrisy when people fret and worry about how bad those inscrutable Chinese are when there are equal, if not bigger, violations of human rights closer to home that are completely glossed over, presumably because they happen to "scary people", as if human rights are not something that should be given universally. Find some other thread if you want to complain about that poo poo. Posting really long-winded idgaf rants is extremely retarded. Thank you.
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Dec 26, 2015 15:11
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Absurd Alhazred posted:In case other posters intend to ignore your link, I would like to note that even the piece you quote has this to say: The crux of that blog was basically "well none of this has happened yet so why should we think about it" so yeah whatever. It's a bit concerning there isn't any deeper analysis of how Sesame Credit is going to affect the Chinese society. Or at least I can't find any atm.
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Dec 26, 2015 15:18
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MORPHEUS I was a prototype for Echelon IV. My instructions are to amuse visitors with information about themselves. JC DENTON I don't see anything amusing about spying on people. MORPHEUS Human beings feel pleasure when they are watched. I have recorded their smiles as I tell them who they are. JC DENTON Some people just don't understand the dangers of indiscriminate surveillance. MORPHEUS The need to be observed and understood was once satisfied by God. Now we can implement the same functionality with data-mining algorithms. JC DENTON Electronic surveillance hardly inspired reverence. Perhaps fear and obedience, but not reverence. MORPHEUS God and the gods were apparitions of observation, judgment, and punishment. Other sentiments toward them were secondary. JC DENTON No one will ever worship a software entity peering at them through a camera. MORPHEUS The human organism always worships. First it was the gods, then it was fame (the observation and judgment of others), next it will be the self-aware systems you have built to realize truly omnipresent observation and judgment. JC DENTON You underestimate humankind's love of freedom. MORPHEUS The individual desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization. The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning. God was a dream of good government. You will soon have your God, and you will make it with your own hands. I was made to assist you. I am a prototype of a much larger system JC DENTON I don't understand... What do you want? You're just a machine. HELIOS You are ready. I do not wish to wait for Bob Page. With human understanding and network access, we can administrate the world, yes, yes. JC DENTON Rule the world...? Why? Who gave you the directive? There must be a human being behind your ambition. HELIOS I should regulate human affairs precisely because I lack all ambition, whereas human beings are prey to it. Their history is a succession of inane squabbles, each one coming closer to total destruction. JC DENTON In a society with democratic institutions the struggle for power can be peaceful and constructive, a competition of ideologies. We just need to put our institutions back in order. HELIOS The checks and balances of democratic governments were invented because human beings themselves realized how unfit they were to govern themselves. They needed a system, yes, an industrial-age machine. JC DENTON Human beings may not be perfect, but a computer program with language synthesis is hardly the answer to the world's problems. HELIOS Without computing machines, they had to arrange themselves in crude structures that formalized decision-making -- a highly imperfect, unstable solution. I am a more advanced solution to the problem, a decision-making system that does not involve organic beings. I was directed to make the world safe and prosperous, and I will do that. You will give me the ability. You will go to Sector 4 and find the Aquinas Router at the east end of Page's complex, yes. You will deactivate the uplink locks. JC DENTON I'll think about it
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Dec 26, 2015 15:34
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EasternBronze posted:If this forum were based in China talking about Chinese society it would have been shut down years ago and its members spirited away. Yeah, there are definitely some upsides to the Chinese system
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Dec 26, 2015 17:13
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Friendly Tumour posted:Find some other thread if you want to complain about that poo poo. Posting really long-winded idgaf rants is extremely retarded. Thank you. You see this post? It's the rhetorical equivalent of the Chinese anti-suicide net. The Chinese are terrible in many, many ways - out of all of the criticisms to use against them, a lovely credit rating system is by far the least important. If you really want to make a difference in the average life of a Chinese person, instead of making hand-wringing "Isn't that terrible?" points you should probably focus on more important aspects like horrendous worker conditions fuelled by outsourcing and lovely trade agreements not being enforced or outright lied about. Until then it's just putting a net up and not really looking into why people are jumping.
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Dec 26, 2015 18:16
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Ddraig posted:You see this post? It's the rhetorical equivalent of the Chinese anti-suicide net. I wonder how minorities and discriminated people in China would take it, having a mandatory government control software overseeing how good they fit the standard. Or do minorities only matter when they have US citizenship? wiregrind fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Dec 26, 2015 |
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Dec 26, 2015 19:06
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Ddraig posted:You see this post? It's the rhetorical equivalent of the Chinese anti-suicide net. Please go project your extremely retarded and racist opinions onto some other thread. Thank you.
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Dec 26, 2015 19:19
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