|
I feel like the OP is hilariously misleading because every time I see the alpha tests being broadcast it's just wall to wall lag and crashes and no-one who seems sane actually has any fun with it.
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 15:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 03:44 |
|
|
cathead posted:Yeah that was one of the potential issues they identified early on. They had some ideas that ranged from pretty hardline stuff like "if you join a campaign your character is locked to it until the end" to more granular stuff like "you can leave early but you'll forfeit your rewards and have to pay a penalty". I imagine we might see some different approaches now that they've settled on the vessel system though. The big issue is it's a very granular scale between; People abandoning at the first sign of trouble to People being stuck fighting an impossible war where they just lose (and thus stop playing)
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 15:49
|
|
|
Orv posted:I feel like the OP is hilariously misleading because every time I see the alpha tests being broadcast it's just wall to wall lag and crashes and no-one who seems sane actually has any fun with it. Did you miss the part where I said it ran pretty badly and had some major responsiveness issues? I'm not sure what's misleading there. I mean, it was very much a "does this poo poo even work when a bunch of people bang into it over the internet?" kind of test. It was still somewhat playable for me at least, not really the height of entertainment but it was kind of fun to screw around with for an hour or two and see what you could accomplish despite the issues. Stormgale posted:The big issue is it's a very granular scale between; I guess the good thing is early campaigns will likely be pretty fast as they test different stuff out and develop new rulesets, so it's unlikely people will get stuck in something they don't like for long. I think this is one of those things where all you can do is just do it, see how people actually respond to it, and adjust accordingly.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
cathead posted:Did you miss the part where I said it ran pretty badly and had some major responsiveness issues? I'm not sure what's misleading there. I mean, it was very much a "does this poo poo even work when a bunch of people bang into it over the internet?" kind of test. I took umbrage with "where the game was actually playable and not a complete piece of poo poo?!" and stopped reading because OP.  My bad.But yeah, I dunno, this game has about the same chances as Camelot of not being a tire fire, so whichever lands less cocked dice is probably worth a little time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 16:41
|
|
|
Orv posted:I took umbrage with "where the game was actually playable and not a complete piece of poo poo?!" and stopped reading because OP. Haha, it's fine. I mostly put it that way because for a large part of the last thread we had plenty of "vaporware!" jokes and such about how alpha testing wouldn't even start till mid-2016. I was honestly surprised that they actually got tests going around the time they said they would, and that there was actually something of substance to it besides some boxes bumping into each other or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 16:53
|
|
|
Stormgale posted:The big issue is it's a very granular scale between; This is the critical issue of open-world territory control MMOs. The game has to be fun on some level for both the winners and losers, and unlike in 'real life' you want people to default to fighting, not settling on peace and playing farmville. Its a very hard balance to get right, and having time-limited campaigns as a 'reset' mechanism is a good step towards preventing stagnation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 17:04
|
|
|
mightygerm posted:This is the critical issue of open-world territory control MMOs. The game has to be fun on some level for both the winners and losers, and unlike in 'real life' you want people to default to fighting, not settling on peace and playing farmville. This is true but my point is with the time limited nature you are kind of just adding another step of "Go to another world" in between "Find it unfun" and Quit, if oeioke are constantly hopping then battles have no impact and quickly become unfun. In the inverse if im stuck fighting a pointless war for say longer than a few days i'm probably gonna stop fighting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 17:16
|
|
|
in the grim darkness of the 21st century, there is only pointless war
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 17:27
|
|
|
To find people's breaking point with unwinnable situations people quit moba games 10 minutes in if they see it going south. I cannot see how you could rig it in such a way that would force people to continue to compete in lost causes which wouldn't either make people quit because they are getting spawn camped or make people quit because no matter how hard they are winning the game doesn't actually let them win. The only thing that will stop deathblob guilds from controlling entire shards is having staging limits which will alienate and anger the hardcores who run the deathblobs by preventing them for actually being able to utilise their full force. There are just fundamental problems with a game like this which happen every time someone tries to make one and I fail to see how they aren't something in the inherent makeup of open pvp mmos.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 18:24
|
|
|
Stormgale posted:This is true but my point is with the time limited nature you are kind of just adding another step of "Go to another world" in between "Find it unfun" and Quit, if oeioke are constantly hopping then battles have no impact and quickly become unfun. In the inverse if im stuck fighting a pointless war for say longer than a few days i'm probably gonna stop fighting. This is why it's absolutely imperative that they get combat right. If it's just fun to go out and fight people then people will do it just for the hell of it, and working toward that greater goal of winning is just another layer of the entertainment. Otherwise you end up with situations where it's like "this is actually unfun to play but I'm going to anyway because I want to win" which is something that Eve struggled with a lot in some aspects of its design. Byolante posted:To find people's breaking point with unwinnable situations people quit moba games 10 minutes in if they see it going south. I cannot see how you could rig it in such a way that would force people to continue to compete in lost causes which wouldn't either make people quit because they are getting spawn camped or make people quit because no matter how hard they are winning the game doesn't actually let them win. Something we're not really factoring in here is the fact that depending on the ruleset, losing won't always mean you get nothing. Only on the most "hardcore" ruleset is that the case in their initial design doc. Most of the other factored in some kind of ratio of items/rewards you get to keep based on whether you won or lost, so 80/20, 70/30, etc. Winning/losing also may not be a binary thing based on the ruleset, in the FAQ they talked about the idea of collecting "victory points" for completing certain objectives appropriate to the ruleset and using those (and only those) to determine the winner, so it seems like you could also adjust rewards based on how well each side did points-wise to incentivize the losing side to not give up. Also, on rulesets like the 3-faction Order/Balance/Chaos one, Balance actually has the win condition of needing to PREVENT both Order and Chaos from winning before the campaign is over. You're correct that the deathblob thing has been a fundamental issue in large-scale PVP games, but I think you can mitigate that somewhat with smart combat and siege gameplay design. It's way too early to even think about that in CF though since we haven't even seen all the classes or final abilities yet. Hopefully they'll start exploring some ideas as they move into the siege tests.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 18:55
|
|
|
One possible solution to deathblobs is to have friendly collision detection and some level of line of sight restrictions on ranged attacks. That way, smaller groups can use terrain to restrict the available firepower a zerg could bear down on them. I haven't really seen this implemented in any previous MMOs - mostly due to the physics requirements made it unrealistic for the server hardware at the time. I think WAR was the only mmo I played that made serious use of collision detection in pvp. Along with properly balanced cc and aoe systems, I think you can make something work.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
cathead posted:This is why it's absolutely imperative that they get combat right. If it's just fun to go out and fight people then people will do it just for the hell of it, and working toward that greater goal of winning is just another layer of the entertainment. Otherwise you end up with situations where it's like "this is actually unfun to play but I'm going to anyway because I want to win" which is something that Eve struggled with a lot in some aspects of its design. I think it also has to do with the metagame cost of going to fight, if my dickfuck empire can't control the whole map easily because we can lose as much as we gain then it leaves room for smaller groups.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 19:15
|
|
|
mightygerm posted:One possible solution to deathblobs is to have friendly collision detection and some level of line of sight restrictions on ranged attacks. That way, smaller groups can use terrain to restrict the available firepower a zerg could bear down on them. I haven't really seen this implemented in any previous MMOs - mostly due to the physics requirements made it unrealistic for the server hardware at the time. I think WAR was the only mmo I played that made serious use of collision detection in pvp. As soon as you start seeing pings over 50ms collision detection stops being a good idea with anything other than static objects.this isn't a problem with small scale pvp games like mobas, rts or fps because the small number of participants means matchmaking can focus a lot more on geographical location which a niche mmo really doesn't have the luxury of. The stress on servers is a really backseat concern compared to the horrific rubber banding you would see in a say 50 v 50 seige even before you stop to consider the devs want voxel based destructible terrain which can't possibly go wrong if the objects have collison detection enabled.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 19:32
|
|
|
Robo Reagan posted:im not sure you know what a meltdown is ok Byolante posted:To find people's breaking point with unwinnable situations people quit moba games 10 minutes in if they see it going south. I cannot see how you could rig it in such a way that would force people to continue to compete in lost causes which wouldn't either make people quit because they are getting spawn camped or make people quit because no matter how hard they are winning the game doesn't actually let them win. you've framed the issue with full loot pvp mmos exactly. if you try to stop the blobs from blobbing, they leave. once they leave, the deathspiral of "cant find anyone" starts. if you let the blobs exist, the solo minded and self-imposed smaller sized groups leave. the blobs have nothing to kill, they leave.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 20:16
|
|
|
Blazing Zero posted:you've framed the issue with full loot pvp mmos exactly. if you try to stop the blobs from blobbing, they leave. once they leave, the deathspiral of "cant find anyone" starts. if you let the blobs exist, the solo minded and self-imposed smaller sized groups leave. the blobs have nothing to kill, they leave. To be fair, most "full loot pvp MMOs" up until now have barely bothered to make any attempts at rectifying this. It's not like it's an unsolvable problem.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 20:30
|
|
|
cathead posted:To be fair, most "full loot pvp MMOs" up until now have barely bothered to make any attempts at rectifying this. It's not like it's an unsolvable problem. They've also been utter poo poo for a myriad of other reasons barely related to this.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 21:26
|
|
|
Blazing Zero posted:ok The blobs will always have other blobs in the latter case, though. GW2 is kind of a case study in endless blob v blob dick smashing. Except smart devs like Arenanet include activities for small groups as well, such as supply denial and supply camp attacking, and caravan ganking. Perhaps Crowfall will have the same and accommodate both? Kimsemus fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jan 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 21:55
|
|
|
malhavok posted:They've also been utter poo poo for a myriad of other reasons barely related to this. Well I figured that was assumed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 22:00
|
|
|
Game sounds awesome. I'll believe it when I see it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2016 22:08
|
|
|
crowfall is a scam well thats my lovely vaporware joke
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 01:27
|
|
|
Kimsemus posted:The blobs will always have other blobs in the latter case, though. GW2 is kind of a case study in endless blob v blob dick smashing. there will be caravans. Check out this example that they're trying to envision https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IolWGu7xFlw
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 01:28
|
|
|
Lastgirl posted:there will be caravans. If they work the way they should, then bam, there is your small group content.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 05:06
|
|
|
Kimsemus posted:If they work the way they should, then bam, there is your small group content. I don't think anyone is disagreeing on that, it's the % chance of if.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2016 05:59
|
|
|
I'm pretty hyped about this game, especially with the vessel system being explained. Skimming the forums though, I can't really get a sense of what the eternal kingdoms are supposed to "do", other than you somehow collect NPCs to populate them. Has anything recent been divulged?
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 07:53
|
|
|
Capntastic posted:I'm pretty hyped about this game, especially with the vessel system being explained. Nothing recent, but based of what they've said so far, EKs are like... persistant instanced worlds that each person has their own copy of. They can build castles or houses or whatever there, store resources and loot, have NPCs to craft stuff for them or what not. You can invite other people to your "kingdom" (or allow yourself to just be shown on a list where you can like advertise services), and you also have the ability to enable PvP in your kingdom for people to practice or mess around in or whatever. You can also flag people to be able to build on and live in your kingdom. So the idea is you could just use it as your own personal little place to chill out, or maybe you could build a huge castle to use as a guild hall for your guild and allow guildies to live on your land, or maybe set up a bazaar or social hub where people can sell and trade stuff outside of campaigns and try and be the popular place that everyone wants to hang out at. Your visibility on the kingdom list (if you're set to public access) is dependent on how large and upgraded your kingdom is, so there's some pseudo-progression there, and you can also tax people that come to your kingdom to use whatever services you might have set up. What I'm still not clear on when/how often you can go to your kingdom or other people's, especially with the new vessel system. Like, do you have to wait between campaigns or is it something separate you can just hop out into anytime, etc. Sounds like it might be the latter but I'm not sure.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 11:40
|
|
|
unless it somehow translates to power in the actual game, the EK system seems wholly uninteresting to me
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 22:38
|
|
|
Blazing Zero posted:unless it somehow translates to power in the actual game, the EK system seems wholly uninteresting to me It's your vanity / trophy room which to be fair alot of people aren't into.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 22:57
|
|
|
Blazing Zero posted:unless it somehow translates to power in the actual game, the EK system seems wholly uninteresting to me Ditto, to me it's the weakest part of their design. There doesn't seem to be much point to it, and they've repeatedly said it won't translate to power in the campaigns.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 22:57
|
|
|
There will be some campaigns that you can take stuff into from your EK when you first enter. I imagine at least for vessels that this would be pretty standard to take into a campaign world from your EK. E: And you're supposed to be able to craft and stuff there too, with stuff you take out of campaign worlds.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 23:00
|
|
|
EK hosts trophies / relics which are supposed to confer some stat increases. There's also your bank where everything not in the campaigns is stored. It is also where most trading and crafting takes place when not in a campaign.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 23:01
|
|
|
Gerbil_Pen posted:EK hosts trophies / relics which are supposed to confer some stat increases. There's also your bank where everything not in the campaigns is stored. Depending on how much of an advantage an EK gives this could be an unfun and unbalanced thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 23:17
|
|
|
Kimsemus posted:Depending on how much of an advantage an EK gives this could be an unfun and unbalanced thing. Well remember the advantage is limited both by export and import rules, so the "Serious" stuff could easily be more limited.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2016 23:38
|
|
|
Kimsemus posted:Depending on how much of an advantage an EK gives this could be an unfun and unbalanced thing. Their initial examples for the relics/artifacts were all pretty minor increases like archery skill training speed +1% and wood harvesting speed +5%. You can only have a certain number on you at any given time as well (they were estimating 3). It's mostly all stuff that will have to get iterated on at a later point when the game is more complete. p.s. read the FAQs on the site it covers a surprising amount of stuff
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 00:17
|
|
|
This game is fun to think about and I hope it exists and doesn't suck. It probably will though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 00:33
|
|
|
And, you will want to have a shop set up in the most trafficked EKs in order to get your goods in front of more potential buyers. Seems like they want a sort of crafting/trade environment separated from the combat... though I thought there was mention of some sort of minor combat allowed even in EKs based on the owner's preferences.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 01:49
|
|
|
Byolante posted:To find people's breaking point with unwinnable situations people quit moba games 10 minutes in if they see it going south. I cannot see how you could rig it in such a way that would force people to continue to compete in lost causes which wouldn't either make people quit because they are getting spawn camped or make people quit because no matter how hard they are winning the game doesn't actually let them win. Well what happens in EVE when this happens? Do players quit? Go back to carebear 1.0 space? Join up with opposing giant faction to get revenge?
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 02:42
|
|
|
Korak posted:Well what happens in EVE when this happens? Do players quit? Go back to carebear 1.0 space? Join up with opposing giant faction to get revenge? Yes. They all fail at those too, usually.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 02:51
|
|
|
cathead posted:Based on what they've said, each campaign world will be a self-contained, procedurally generated, seamless world Could you link where they said the campaign worlds will be seamless? I thought one of the major drawbacks of the Unity engine was that huge seamless Asheron's Call-style maps simply couldn't be done edit: it's right there in the official FAQ, maybe that's something later Unity versions do better? quote:In terms of number of players, it’s a seamless-world MMO server, so the goal is to support thousands of players. It’s not a “50 versus 50 match”, or anything like that. The only limit that will be placed on the user population for each Campaign World will be the technical limitations of the hardware, i.e. how many players can a server handle? We won’t know that until testing, but we expect it to be similar to other seamless world MMOs Flavahbeast fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Jan 5, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2016 03:41
|
|
|
The gangs all here, lets just get this thing into alpha so we can enter the world and start creating drama, er content for the masses.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 10:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 03:44 |
|
|
I kickstarted this and it seems pretty interesting. Hope it works out.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2016 12:23
|
|