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Stormgale posted:I think they are going to use ammo to put ranger in a harassment role with a scout/skirmishing archetype (this is me probably talking out my rear end) but forcing the ranger to use ammo means that as an engagement goes on they lose alot of their potency, meaning for big sieges you bring a tonne and have to commit for that ranged superiority but you can also carry light and focus on ambush/harassment. That would be the changes up everything part Think about the one big issue in mmos. Complete Downtime with insane grind to endgame or full on nonstop ganking/zerging constantly in a zerg train all around the world. I assume the developers want to gear the campaign worlds towards a balance where resources is key and the downtimes are focused on building the warmachines and planning to take strategic areas. Ammunition serves the economy too and it will be interesting to see how supply and demand function within it especially when transporting ammunition to strongholds is required to stockpile it to take the adjacent area.
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Jan 9, 2016 21:08
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logistics~
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Jan 9, 2016 21:14
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My favorite part of DAoC's ammunition system was using strength debuffs to permanently encumber archers in place, I hope Crowfall adopts a similar mechanic
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Jan 9, 2016 22:00
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Stormgale posted:Bad pvp mmo crew checking the gently caress in
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Jan 10, 2016 08:59
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Its only not a problem if every class does in fact have some limiting mechanic. Not only does it become a min max issue but there will be countless people crying about how they have to do it and others don't. Also it wont make them op, if it did people would complain til it was normalized with other classes, going back to having to do it just to be competitive. I think overall its most likely a bad mechanic to have ammo.
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Jan 10, 2016 09:00
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Oh hello new crowfall thread. Has anyone been keeping track of the forums? That was the only fun part of this game.
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Jan 11, 2016 06:31
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I played in the alpha for about twenty minutes. Really wonky control lag (turning camera would sometimes flip you around entirely) but running around in groups, killing zombie cats and picking up loot seemed to work. It was all Shadowbane. Eventually we'd run into a similar group on the opposing team and the fun would really begin. Even with the control issues I was having fun picking off stragglers that would get split off trying to chase people. Tyrant, the dev who did a lot of stuff during Ultima Online, was in the chatroom afterwards. All in all, not so bad, but there's still a long road to go.
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Jan 11, 2016 07:14
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Pavlov posted:Oh hello new crowfall thread. forums died out thanks to the iron curtain sporadic updates and commentary going "woooow! so awesome!!" are the staple posts I sometimes just post in announcement threads to tease Pann
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Jan 11, 2016 15:29
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Lastgirl posted:I haven't even tried the game out even though I'm in the tester group. I wish they would take cues from Smite instead of too much on Tera tbh, Tera felt so weighty in a bad way I too think Tera feels too rigid but holy gently caress Smite has worse combat feedback than Morrowind.
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Jan 11, 2016 15:43
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Lastgirl posted:forums died out thanks to the iron curtain woooow! so awesome!!11! such fall! much crow!!1!
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Jan 11, 2016 16:03
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Arzachel posted:I too think Tera feels too rigid but holy gently caress Smite has worse combat feedback than Morrowind. What? SMITEs controls are exactly why I like it and despise all the other MOBAs out there. To each their own I guess.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:39
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Capntastic posted:I played in the alpha for about twenty minutes. Really wonky control lag (turning camera would sometimes flip you around entirely) but running around in groups, killing zombie cats and picking up loot seemed to work. It was all Shadowbane. Eventually we'd run into a similar group on the opposing team and the fun would really begin. Even with the control issues I was having fun picking off stragglers that would get split off trying to chase people. These are the kind of reviews I would like to see more of. Despite broken systems and some bland mechanics, I want to know if there is the potential for funtimes for a couple months at least.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:42
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Yes, there is a fun game to be had under the wonky combat. Hopefully they get that poo poo sorted out.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:28
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If there's fun to be had this early, that is a really good sign. Means there's a core mechanic loop somewhere in there that is Good<tm>. Times like these, I bear in mind what I was once told by an extremely experienced game dev-- "Games are basically completely terrible and bad for 90% of the development, and they definitely look like poo poo for all of that. That is why you typically only see like the last 5% of the effort".
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Jan 11, 2016 20:45
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Yeah my complaints were primarily about the responsiveness of the combat, which is exactly what they're aiming to address with the client controller updates. The actual basic class concepts and interactions were pretty good though especially for a pre-alpha. That being said, there's a LOT of other stuff that needs to go in that can potentially break or be poo poo or ruin the experience, so we're still just getting started, but getting some things right this early is a good sign and not something I initially expected. I think the next big hurdle to get over is making sure everything holds together with larger group sizes, which the Siege testing in March should give us a better idea of.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:56
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I'll be curious to see what sort of abilities we can slot in, since right now the classes all seem like they have a fairly decent spread. I imagine different combos will be fun to play around with, too.
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Jan 13, 2016 01:16
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Why is it shooting yourself in the foot is the biggest hurdle now, back in my day games were actually bad.
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Jan 13, 2016 07:39
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Lastgirl posted:forums died out thanks to the iron curtain yeah it was fun to poo poo post there for a while but it stopped being fun vOv
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Jan 14, 2016 19:30
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I was just sitting around thinking about all these RvR style sandbox MMOs in development when an idea hit me. I was thinking about Dominions IV, a 4x game where you have really powerful spells you can cast that alter the entire world (or at least that's what I'm told, I've never actually played the game). I assume its things like a pestilence that reduces food generation but I've also heard of powerful AOE spells that can decimate entire armies if you research and cast them at the right times. I feel like Crowfall could almost incorporate an idea like that into its game design. Worlds end and restart already. When I daydream of memorable RvR moments its things like defending sieges outnumbered or having really close battles over key strategic areas. It would be pretty awesome to have another dimension that is barely holding off an attacking force until your mages channel some ridiculous AOE fireblast that kills everyone. Or strategically casting a global enchantment that targets and exploits weaknesses in an enemy factions resource generation. Balancing them would be a task for greater minds than mine, but that's my probably terrible idea. I'm gay.
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Jan 17, 2016 04:13
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Hopefully they properly address the combat smoothness issues. That can make or break a lot of games, MMO or otherwise.amazeballs posted:I was just sitting around thinking about all these RvR style sandbox MMOs in development when an idea hit me.
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Jan 18, 2016 03:40
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I actually think Dominions has some good ideas for Crowfall devs; Dominions campaigns last about a month, one player gets really strong and wins and the game ends. There's a huge random element in terms of special events, resources and hidden magic sites you start with near your capital and when you play well + have decent luck the power curve is really fun and satisfying, but every game is a blank slate where a lot can happen. I think the temporary nature of the campaign worlds frees the devs from a lot of balance considerations that shackle other MMO's - if there's no expectation that players will keep their Good poo poo permanently it allows the devs to experiment with letting players find Real Good poo poo 👌👌👌👌
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Jan 18, 2016 16:38
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Flavahbeast posted:I actually think Dominions has some good ideas for Crowfall devs; Dominions campaigns last about a month, one player gets really strong and wins and the game ends. There's a huge random element in terms of special events, resources and hidden magic sites you start with near your capital and when you play well + have decent luck the power curve is really fun and satisfying, but every game is a blank slate where a lot can happen. The players kind of get to keep their Good poo poo though, or at least some of it depending on the campaign rules.
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Jan 18, 2016 16:54
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Flavahbeast posted:I actually think Dominions has some good ideas for Crowfall devs; Dominions campaigns last about a month, one player gets really strong and wins and the game ends. There's a huge random element in terms of special events, resources and hidden magic sites you start with near your capital and when you play well + have decent luck the power curve is really fun and satisfying, but every game is a blank slate where a lot can happen. I would make it my personal mission to have burden of time go off every shard as early as possible.
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Jan 18, 2016 21:54
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Interview with J. Todd Coleman about Vessels that might answer some more questions people had. Seems like they factored in a lot of the potential issues people might have with it, especially in regards to how they function in different campaign rulesets. He also mentioned something that I thought was interesting: J. Todd Coleman posted:In the early MMO days, we had this grand sense of design exploration. We tried crazy and interesting ideas, even at the risk of alienating some players, because no one was sure what would or wouldn't work. Crowdfunding is certainly no magic solution and has more than it's share of problems (Star Citizen being the obvious example), but I'd be hard pressed to think of another way that those kinds of crazy MMO ideas we had 15 years ago can even have a chance to see the light of day. Most of the major publishers nowadays are not interested in taking those kinds of risks when safer stuff could do just as well, and MMOs are never cheap to make. With traditional methods of MMO development, there's years of setup for something you then pull the trigger on and go "well I hope this works". People poo poo on the whole "why pay for a game when you don't even know if it will be good or even out in three years" and I totally get that, but how else do we give these ideas and developers the chance to even try if publishers and investors aren't interested in taking on the risk?
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Jan 23, 2016 14:50
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Lol poo poo on SC but yours post is a copy/paste directly from early SC threads on SA. It's new and interesting and risky until you realized you have no patience and regret giving an interest-free five year loan.
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Jan 23, 2016 15:05
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Gerbil_Pen posted:Lol poo poo on SC but yours post is a copy/paste directly from early SC threads on SA. I feel like you misread my post? I wasn't saying that crowdfunding is magically the answer or anything and I completely understand people's trepidation about contributing to it. But it's clearly giving some of these games a chance to get off the ground when they wouldn't normally, regardless of how good of an idea it is to get involved or not. My real question was, what's the alternative? How do we enable people to be able to try these crazy MMO ideas with the inherent risks involved when the bigger companies don't want to? I wasn't posing that as like "well there's clearly no other way so lets give money to fake video games!" I was genuinely wondering if there was another way we could do this that involved less $1000 fake internet spaceships but still allowed developers to try and make a risky idea work without having to put their livelihood on the line.
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Jan 23, 2016 16:02
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if only someone would ~think of the poor game devs~ e: if you don't kickstart, youre suppressing a whole genre of free expression~ e2: tildes
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Jan 23, 2016 19:14
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Gerbil_Pen posted:Lol poo poo on SC but yours post is a copy/paste directly from early SC threads on SA. I've poo poo on this game before, but SC is a whole other level of BS. This game is doing a bunch of weird, dumb poo poo, but if it was just another standard MMO I wouldn't even be paying attention. The game will probably crash and burn from over-ambition, but some of it's crazy ideas might actually turn out good, and can be used in some later game. The common wisdom with kickstartsers is that MMOs are the worst kind of bet, but if a bunch of MMO nerds are going to make long-odds bets that might progress the stagnant loving genre, I'm only going to make fun of them a little bit.
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Jan 23, 2016 19:43
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Blazing Zero posted:if only someone would ~think of the poor game devs~ Ok, I guess I'm sorry I brought the topic up for discussion then! I legit just wanted to talk about it. 
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Jan 23, 2016 20:00
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cathead posted:Ok, I guess I'm sorry I brought the topic up for discussion then! I legit just wanted to talk about it. Nah it's a fine discussion. I kickstart games sometimes. I just got Darkest Dungeon out of it, which is loving great and the kind of thing you wouldn't see otherwise. Kickstarter is good for getting game designs that wouldn't exist with normal funding models. Kickstarter also does a good job at showing why having a publisher breathing down your neck can be really important to get some games made, and made in a way people will actually buy. MMOs just have a history of crashing and burning though, so they make some of the riskiest games to fund. MMOs are the kind of game indie teams are probably least equipped to handle. You're not likely to see too much new and interesting with out some new indie blood though so you're kind of between a rock and a hard place.
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Jan 23, 2016 20:14
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Pavlov posted:
The lack of complex ambition is why I think Crowfall is attainable, really. All it's gonna be is Shadowbane 2, which is simple as heck, plus a few doo-dads such as the vessel stuff and the rotating campaign worlds.
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Jan 23, 2016 22:57
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cathead posted:Ok, I guess I'm sorry I brought the topic up for discussion then! I legit just wanted to talk about it. He's just being sarcastic, it's all good brah~ It's all about moderation really, you don't want to go Roberts nuts. Todd has a point about having more freedom, but as long as he is aware that even freedom has its limits and he isn't literally on a wild goose chase to find the holy grail of mmo formulas. (He kinda is but I think he's more grounded compared to Chris Roberts) Afaik, the level of ambition displayed in Crowfall is admirable and not ludicrous like Star Citizen. There's no guarantee to Kickstarters or Early Access, now we can understand as consumerists why some publishers play it safe. Lastgirl fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 23:25
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Capntastic posted:The lack of complex ambition is why I think Crowfall is attainable, really. All it's gonna be is Shadowbane 2, which is simple as heck, plus a few doo-dads such as the vessel stuff and the rotating campaign worlds. Actually that bit I think I was mixing up with camelot unchained, the other pie in the sky crowdfunded pvp mmo. This one still has some ambition issues, but they're not quite as bad. This one's more at risk of all the systems in its sandbox not clicking together right, and falling apart that way. Pavlov fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 23:44
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Lastgirl posted:He's just being sarcastic, it's all good brah~ Yeah I know I just felt like people were missing my point and shitposting instead. Like, I WANT there to be an alternative to crowdfunding but I'm not sure what it is. You shouldn't have to rely on players risking their money just to see if you can make your crazy idea work. I just really like MMOs as a genre and it's cool when people try new and interesting stuff to break away from the "do quest kill mans make number go up" kind of thing and I wish people were able to try that more. I guess that's why I tend to pay attention to games like this because it's interesting for me to follow and see if their ideas actually work out in practice. I do appreciate Crowfall's relatively restrained level of ambition, they seem to have set the bar at a resonable level (procedurally generated worlds, rulesets that are easily iterated on) and aren't trying to overreach to a bunch of wacky bullshit after the fact.
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Jan 23, 2016 23:56
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Someone already tried to fund the Star Citizen of MMOs:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/120873716/your-world It didn't go well. Crowfall is pretty sane by comparison.
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Jan 24, 2016 14:37
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I think in 10 years we will have some great mmos. I wish I was being sarcastic. Companies are starting to get somethings right. Albion -- one server sandbox like eve, Crowfall -- trying to beat the stagnation/power curve top guilds obtain Other games are doing other good things. The problem is ultimately none of these games all together are very good and will fail. Being that it takes about 7 years to make an mmo AND someone is watching the good parts of each of these games, it stands possible we could see the next great thing 10 years from now. This in my opinion is why this genre is so dead. What is good and fun is a moving target and MMOs dig into the ground and hit the spot where the target was 7 years ago usually. So the 10 year thing is really to make the best mmo of today, which by then will be trash and we will all hate it.
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Jan 24, 2016 14:43
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Well it's also with the progression of technology too, so I can agree that a decade is a reasonable timeframe. Faster internet will be one of the most integral things in mmo design. Lower latencies as more complex games will become ping reliant. It'll be symbiotic and allow developers to do more with what they envisioned without the limits of such. I've had the take away that lag is a very bad thing to have in action oriented games~ And it's obvious that mmos are moving away from tab targeting for mobility and aiming. One of my gripes in MMOs is too much realism at times, walking around is tedious. I really enjoyed Flyff, Age of Wulin/Wushu, Blade and Soul for being able to fly with your characters. I also always thought mounts were dumb and trendy and they used to be so popular that it felt like mounts were always mandatory for a successful mmo design even though they were frivolous as gently caress. (The answer to mounts was boring as gently caress fast travel) I just hope that developers can take away from that and look for ways to be more creative about getting around areas too, not just combat innovation. If I remember in Crowfall, I suppose they are doing mounts but if they make item loss across all campaigns, a(nd campaigns right now are all incubators of some crazy social experiment to see what kind of meta will arise and what people will exploit or won't), the mounts should be okay afaik within reason and consequences. I also know that the Fae assassin can glide. If they can glide off a tall cliff and jump into an enemy stronghold, that would own for example too. I remain stoic though, I've learned that it is.... too much, my friend.
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Jan 24, 2016 15:38
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Lastgirl posted:Well it's also with the progression of technology too, so I can agree that a decade is a reasonable timeframe. Faster internet will be one of the most integral things in mmo design. Lower latencies as more complex games will become ping reliant. It'll be symbiotic and allow developers to do more with what they envisioned without the limits of such. I agree with the things you're saying, but I also think that MMOs are making a general shift away from the grind/leveling experience because developers realize that 95% of content for most people exists at the level cap, and they need to jam that cap full of activities that are fun because a lot of the current MMO demographic doesn't want to grind for the sake of grinding anymore. IF (big if) Crowfall can have fun PVP campaigns with enough carry over to make character development interesting, it will be a fun game. It also will depend on how much the Crowfall devs encourage political intrigue like CCP does with EVE. Unfortunately, we won't know either of these things for a good while. :/
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Jan 24, 2016 17:13
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Kimsemus posted:I agree with the things you're saying, but I also think that MMOs are making a general shift away from the grind/leveling experience because developers realize that 95% of content for most people exists at the level cap, and they need to jam that cap full of activities that are fun because a lot of the current MMO demographic doesn't want to grind for the sake of grinding anymore. I'm more concerned that Crowfall's engine/architecture won't allow for lag-free large scale PVP.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:17
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2DCAT posted:I'm more concerned that Crowfall's engine/architecture won't allow for lag-free large scale PVP. They *claim* it can handle it fine, but I don't know how you can eliminate lag and high pings from say, Europe to a US datacenter effectively in massive battles. Didn't SOE struggle and pour crazy money into figuring this out in PS2 and still couldn't quite nail it?
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Jan 24, 2016 17:34
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