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Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum
2018 Update: HOO BOY DON'T READ THE LAST FEW BOOKS. JUST ENJOY THE FIRST TRILOGY AND PRETEND NOTHING ELSE EXISTS. AKA THE DUNE/STARWARS STRATEGY. TRUST US. THX.


don't know how to get / think that threads can be de-archived, but since Unholy Consult finally has a release date: here is a new R Scott Bakker Thread for all your BLACK DEMON SEED discussion needs! I have shamelessly stolen the OP from the last thread and made only minor edits, since it is pretty great already.

Who is R. Scott Bakker?

R. Scott Bakker is a Canadian fantasy author. While he’s made several forays into traditional fiction, the main bulk of his work is a fantasy series called The Second Apocalypse.

Alright, I just put “The Second Apocalypse” into Amazon and nothing came up. What gives?

The Second Apocalypse is sort of a trilogy of trilogies that comprises all of Bakker’s work. It’s easier to think of it as three trilogies of books that take place in the same universe, with big gaps in between. The first trilogy is called “The Prince of Nothing” and comprises the following books:

1. The Darkness that Comes Before
2. The Warrior-Prophet
3. The Thousandfold Thought

Bakker’s in the middle of writing the second trilogy right now, called “The Aspect-Emperor.” A-E takes place about twenty years after the events of PoN and picks up where it left off, but other than that pretty much everything about it is a huge spoiler for PoN. It comprises:

1. The Judging Eye
2. The White-Luck Warrior
3. The Great Ordeal (July 5, 2016!)
4. The Unholy Consult (2017)

If you’re worried about the series not finishing, don’t be – Bakker’s put out the books at a pretty good clip (six in the last eight years, plus two non-fantasy novels) and has plotted out the last three books in the series. The title of the third trilogy is as yet unrevealed, it’s apparently a huge spoiler for TUC (much like Aspect-Emperor is kind of a spoiler for PoN).

So, why should I read this book instead of the thousand other bloated fantasy series out there?

Prince of Nothing isn't like any other fantasy series running today: it's extremely well-written, full of vibrant and interesting characters, and it just feels like a more complete, 'real' world than just about anything else. If there’s a series I’d compare PoN to, it’s actually Dune. It feels very much like the epic scope of the Malazan books merged with the philosophizing and character of the early Dune novels. (Hell, he even steals the ‘awesome in-universe made up quote before every chapter’ that Frank Herbert did). Bakker obviously knows his philosophy and isn’t afraid to let it permeate the narrative – but not so much so that it gets in the way. And if you're concerned about the time commitment required to get into a major fantasy series, you're in luck - the PoN books all range from 5-600 pages, nowhere near the 1000+ wrist-breaking behemoths we're used to.

One caveat – the universe of PoN is pretty drat brutal. If you’re one of those people who can’t read George R.R. Martin’s books because of all the sex and violence, you’re going to find it amped up to an even more ridiculous degree here. It’s an “Adult” fantasy in both the sense of not treating the reader like a child, and presenting things that no child should read.


I’ve read all of these books already, what now?

Read them again. Seriously, like the Malazan books or the novels of Gene Wolfe, there’s a bunch of clever twists and aspects to Bakker’s world that only become apparent on a second reading. Alternatively, he’s also written two non-fantasy novels – a ‘technothriller’ called Neuropath and another called Disciple of the Dog – but I haven’t read either and can’t really comment on whether they’re worth your time.

The gently caress, The Unholy Consult was supposed to be published 4 years ago, what happened?

While circumstances not entirely clear, it appears that Bakkers publisher received the manuscript, the editor quit without notice, and then proceeded to sit on it for three years until fans stirred up a huge shitshow which caused embarrassment for Overlook and ire from Bakkers agent. Subsequently The Unholy Consult has been split into two, with The Great Ordeal finally hitting shelves this July! Huzzah!

Rime fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Jan 4, 2019

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Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS
These books are really good and I re-read them in 2015 after the overlook thing happened. I'm pretty excited to finally get a new one! R. Scott Bakker is a good writer. He's clearly a student of philosophy (though I don't think he has a phd) and writes accordingly. If it means anything to you, I think the world he's created has explicit, measurable deontological ethics which stand in pretty stark contrast to our own world.

There are two "atrocity tales" on his site. They are like, vignettes in the same universe. One of them might have great ordeal spoilers? Not a big deal to me, but you may as well check them out if you've read the books.
http://www.rscottbakker.com/atrocity-tales/

DEAR RICHARD, finish the book.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

Rime posted:




I’ve read all of these books already, what now?

Read them again. Seriously, like the Malazan books or the novels of Gene Wolfe, there’s a bunch of clever twists and aspects to Bakker’s world that only become apparent on a second reading. Alternatively, he’s also written two non-fantasy novels – a ‘technothriller’ called Neuropath and another called Disciple of the Dog – but I haven’t read either and can’t really comment on whether they’re worth your time.



Also, listen to the audiobooks, they're so fuckin good. The narrators for both series are great, and I find that I process some of his writing differently when listening to it and understand n pick up on certain things I might not have when just reading normally(not that I haven't also done a couple of traditional reading rereads already, cuz it's Bakker and it's worth it, moreso than any other series I can think of).

Also, the Glossary Encyclopedia at the end of the original trilogy's last book, The Thousandfold Thought, makes for some great, interesting reading when you're in the mood for more Bakker but don't have the time to start in on the whole series again.

A human heart
Oct 10, 2012

Can you provide some examples of this guy's good writing and philosophical ideas?

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

A human heart posted:

Can you provide some examples of this guy's good writing and philosophical ideas?
I don't have anything offhand (I'm at work), but there's interesting discussion throughout the old thread:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3440065&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

I know that's not a concise answer but it's all I got.

anilEhilated
Feb 17, 2014

But I say fuck the rain.

Grimey Drawer
I feel obliged to point out that his second "trilogy" is supposed to be four books long.

Anyhow, I read the first three back-to-back so I'm waiting for the second cycle to be done before I tackle them. I can't say I was too impressed but it seemed like it had a lot of potential, sadly the first three books really failed to resolve anything past a bunch of mostly irrelevant to the plot politics.
Fantasy mostly runs on ideas and while there were some interesting concepts in there all the seemingly pointless detail detracts from them.

Also, the loving names. And I'm saying that as someone who is very much a fan of Malazan.

anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jan 5, 2016

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

I liked the first trilogy well enough but the first book was the best and then the Judging Eye was goddamn terrible. I haven’t tried to re-read them since I was 16-17 so I don’t know how well I’d get on w them now. Also TJE includes the line “her lips pert around some lozenge of inexplicability” so I stopped reading there.

Might catch up when the next... next book is out.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

Lunchmeat Larry posted:

I liked the first trilogy well enough but the first book was the best and then the Judging Eye was goddamn terrible. I haven’t tried to re-read them since I was 16-17 so I don’t know how well I’d get on w them now. Also TJE includes the line “her lips pert around some lozenge of inexplicability” so I stopped reading there.

Might catch up when the next... next book is out.

I was initially disappointed with The Judging Eye the first time I read it just because it had the whole 20 year time jump n everything, and also ended on some cliffhangers without great climaxes for some of the plotlines; but once White Luck Warrior came out and was so awesome and continued and ramped up all the plot threads n character development in such ballsy ways, it made those two books my favorites out of the whole thing.

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum

savinhill posted:


Also, the Glossary Encyclopedia at the end of the original trilogy's last book, The Thousandfold Thought, makes for some great, interesting reading when you're in the mood for more Bakker but don't have the time to start in on the whole series again.

Apparently the encyclopedia in The Great Ordeal is now almost as long as the novel itself, like nearly half the physical book. :psyduck:

Corvinus
Aug 21, 2006
I also had a bit of whiplash at first with names, but I can appreciate a setting that isn't just another derivative, white trash western medieval-based fantasy.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

Rime posted:

Apparently the encyclopedia in The Great Ordeal is now almost as long as the novel itself, like nearly half the physical book. :psyduck:

Oh man, that is like some dick-hardening info for me considering just how dope the first Encyclopedic Glossary was, and just how much enjoyment and heavily rewarding short-burst reading I've gotten out of it in the years since it first came out. Like that thing was the first fantasy addendum type writing to evoke the awe-inspired feelings I had as a twelve year old Tolkien fanatic reading official Middle Earth Encyclopedias and getting to find out so much more info about all the history, characters, battles and mythologies that were hinted at, mentioned in passing, or referenced in the LotR trilogy. I say bring on as much of that type of material as possible.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS
I wonder if the anyone will go to atrithau, I want to know what's up with that place. There's so much cool stuff only mentioned in that glossary.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Jan 6, 2016

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010
^^^Man, one of the biggest things I'm jonesing to find out about the Ordeal is wtf is going to happen to all the people who start eating the dead Sranc?

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum

savinhill posted:

^^^Man, one of the biggest things I'm jonesing to find out about the Ordeal is wtf is going to happen to all the people who start eating the dead Sranc?

The Amazon summary says "consequences not even Kellhus could forsee". So probably nothing good. :ohdear:

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

Rime posted:

The Amazon summary says "consequences not even Kellhus could forsee". So probably nothing good. :ohdear:

Oh wow, I can't even begin to fathom just how hosed up and what those consequences could be when they're one of the rare, if not only, times when Kellhus fails to mastermind em. Maybe we'll be getting a new, even higher level of the good old Ultra-Bakker in this new one,

Shaquin
May 12, 2007
I'd say this is the only series that ever approached the same feeling Dune gives while reading it. A very distinct and real sense of places and culture that fantasy as a genre lacks, even among some of it's heavy hitter series.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Rime posted:

Apparently the encyclopedia in The Great Ordeal is now almost as long as the novel itself, like nearly half the physical book. :psyduck:

Just release a stand-alone encyclopaedia already, gently caress.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

Autonomous Monster posted:

Just release a stand-alone encyclopaedia already, gently caress.

I think he wants to but can't because of contract reasons

Popular Human
Jul 17, 2005

and if it's a lie, terrorists made me say it
Hey, that's my OP! I love that I was all "oh don't worry about the series not getting finished, he's written six books in eight years, he's no GRRM" then Unholy Consult gets pushed back four years.

Bakker is one of those authors who I really liked when someone tossed a copy of TDTCB into my lap, but between the glacial pace of his releases, his awful devotion to internet poo poo-stirring and him not being able to control his weird cuckoldry/rape/mind-control fetishes in his non-SFF work, I've kinda gone lukewarm on him. Consult getting split into two books doesn't exactly fill me with hope, but maybe it'll get me re-invested in this series.

A human heart
Oct 10, 2012

Rime posted:

Apparently the encyclopedia in The Great Ordeal is now almost as long as the novel itself, like nearly half the physical book. :psyduck:

Worldbuilding is a spiritual sickness.

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum
Yeah, I find his darker predilections in writing to be somewhat frustrating, since as Shaquin says the series is one of the ultra rare gems that feels as deep and well-crafted as Dune in the world building and philosophical exploration. I constantly want to recommend it to people, but am afraid of them reading it and then judging me based on the quite horrific-at-times subject matter. :ohdear:

Hopefully he's been using the years that Overlook sat on the manuscript wisely, and the third trilogy is already done and ready for submission.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Popular Human posted:

Hey, that's my OP! I love that I was all "oh don't worry about the series not getting finished, he's written six books in eight years, he's no GRRM" then Unholy Consult gets pushed back four years.

Bakker is one of those authors who I really liked when someone tossed a copy of TDTCB into my lap, but between the glacial pace of his releases, his awful devotion to internet poo poo-stirring and him not being able to control his weird cuckoldry/rape/mind-control fetishes in his non-SFF work, I've kinda gone lukewarm on him. Consult getting split into two books doesn't exactly fill me with hope, but maybe it'll get me re-invested in this series.
lol the internet poo poo-stirring was instigated by another scifi author using a fake name to intentionally assemble mobs to harass competing authors:
http://www.metafilter.com/144305/Ripping-up-the-SFF-Scene-Requires-Hate

Popular Human
Jul 17, 2005

and if it's a lie, terrorists made me say it

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

lol the internet poo poo-stirring was instigated by another scifi author using a fake name to intentionally assemble mobs to harass competing authors:
http://www.metafilter.com/144305/Ripping-up-the-SFF-Scene-Requires-Hate

That may be, but he's definitely one of those people who can't help Googling himself and responding to every negative thing someone writes about him on the internet.

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow
I just kind of attribute it to him being a guy from an older generation who was not meant to live in a world with the internet.

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

he does really like to go on hilarious blog rants about how the misandrists are trying to destroy his career, though, it's something really... special.

Added Space
Jul 13, 2012

Free Markets
Free People

Curse you Hayard-Gunnes!
I have to completely disagree with the OP. The series is entirely one-note and preachy in an extremely disturbing way. I'd actually compare it most closely to the Methods of Rationality fanfic, although I will concede that at least the narrative is more tightly focused.

It's all about a genius hero who was raised in a Rationalist Kung Fu monastery in the ways of Being Rational, and this make him totally better then all the poor regular schlubs of the world. They're all helpless before his ability to think clearly and his transparently manipulative sociopathic outbursts. He proceeds to betray and steal the girlfriends of his two allies, because they totally belong on his Rationalist cock, and totally shows up his dad who just wasn't the genius he ended up being. No-one ever calls him out on his poo poo, because of course every other character he goes up against is written as a venial idiot who couldn't hope to show least bit of resistance to Rationalist Supreme. It's transparent wish fulfillment for the smart, antisocial kid who just knew he would be better then everyone else if given the right challenge. Heck, I was pretty much that kid and even I gave up on it because I didn't want to be a manipulative, backstabbing monster.

As for the intricate world and plot, it's been a while, but isn't it just a retelling of the Fourth Crusade with a heavy glop of fantasy make-up? Granted, that was a very interesting story in the annals of history, but all the author really adds to it is magical Jews and Arabs (the Jews are stronger but less numerous), Rationalist Batman co-opting it by pretending to be the Second Coming, and a vague race of shapeshifting aliens.

Added Space fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jan 7, 2016

anilEhilated
Feb 17, 2014

But I say fuck the rain.

Grimey Drawer
Is he a hero though? I haven't read past book 3 but on ending that I very much had the idea of him as a conniving rear end in a top hat who doesn't get what's coming to him only by virtue of his world being such a shithole you can't really imagine "good" prevailing.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

anilEhilated posted:

Is he a hero though? I haven't read past book 3 but on ending that I very much had the idea of him as a conniving rear end in a top hat who doesn't get what's coming to him only by virtue of his world being such a shithole you can't really imagine "good" prevailing.

He's totally not, you'd have to like intentionally misread the whole series to think that Kellhus is meant to be an actual good guy.

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum
I've always read Kellhus as a completely amoral psychopath who eventually succumbs to complete insanity and in the first trilogy, serves as an exploration of the dangers of messianic thinking / culture (similar to Paul Atreides) while in the second The perils of achieving actual unfettered messianic powers.

I think there's a fundamental difference in literature between characters written to be appealing to the the other characters around them in the context of the plot, while being quickly abhorrent to the readers, and characters who serve only as juvenile wish fulfilment like that Mary sue Kvoth. I mean, to the astute reader it becomes apparent pretty quickly that Kellhus is a terrifyingly lovely individual and pathological liar and is probably the major villian of the series in the long run, like watching Sauron fall from grace. :shrug:

Rime fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jan 7, 2016

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

Lunchmeat Larry posted:

he does really like to go on hilarious blog rants about how the misandrists are trying to destroy his career, though, it's something really... special.

Rant, I've only ever seen him post anything like that once on his blog and it was half-joking and making fun at the Westeros thread members too.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

savinhill posted:

He's totally not, you'd have to like intentionally misread the whole series to think that Kellhus is meant to be an actual good guy.
Yeah this, he's written as somewhere between really bad and the literal devil. You don't have to like someone just because they're a POV character.

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow

Added Space posted:

I have to completely disagree with the OP. The series is entirely one-note and preachy in an extremely disturbing way. I'd actually compare it most closely to the Methods of Rationality fanfic, although I will concede that at least the narrative is more tightly focused.

It's all about a genius hero who was raised in a Rationalist Kung Fu monastery in the ways of Being Rational, and this make him totally better then all the poor regular schlubs of the world. They're all helpless before his ability to think clearly and his transparently manipulative sociopathic outbursts. He proceeds to betray and steal the girlfriends of his two allies, because they totally belong on his Rationalist cock, and totally shows up his dad who just wasn't the genius he ended up being. No-one ever calls him out on his poo poo, because of course every other character he goes up against is written as a venial idiot who couldn't hope to show least bit of resistance to Rationalist Supreme. It's transparent wish fulfillment for the smart, antisocial kid who just knew he would be better then everyone else if given the right challenge. Heck, I was pretty much that kid and even I gave up on it because I didn't want to be a manipulative, backstabbing monster.

As for the intricate world and plot, it's been a while, but isn't it just a retelling of the Fourth Crusade with a heavy glop of fantasy make-up? Granted, that was a very interesting story in the annals of history, but all the author really adds to it is magical Jews and Arabs (the Jews are stronger but less numerous), Rationalist Batman co-opting it by pretending to be the Second Coming, and a vague race of shapeshifting aliens.

Let's be fair here: Nothing is as bad as Methods of Rationality. I'm pretty sure the Turner Diaries are better works of fiction than Methods of Rationality.

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow
Methods of Rationality level would be if Bakker believed you could become a Dunyain by donating money to his organization to stop evil aliens and reading his blogposts.

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

quote:

Then he saw . . . it. An abomination walking through dawn twilight.
It was half-again taller than a man, with long, folded wings curved like scythes over its powerful frame. Save where it was mottled by black, cancerous spots, its skin was translucent, and sheathed about a great flared skull shaped like an oyster set on edge. And within the gaping jaws of that skull was fused another, more manlike, so that an almost human face grinned from its watery features.
The Sranc howled with rapture as it passed, and jerked at their groups as they fell to their knees. The mounted Nonmen lowered their shining scalps. It studied the rows of hapless humans, and then its great black eyes fell upon Aengelas. Valrissa sobbed, a mere length away.
You . . . We sense the old fire in you, manling . . .
“I am Werigda!” Aengelas roared.
Do you know what we are?
“The Great Ruiner,” Aengelas gasped.
Noooo, it cooed, as though his mistake had aroused a delicious shiver. We are not He . . . We are His servant. Save my Brother, we are the last of those who descended from the void . . .
“The Great Ruiner!” Aengelas cried.
The abomination had walked ever closer throughout this exchange, until it loomed over his wife and child. Valrissa clutched Bengulla to her bosom, held out a tragic warding hand against the hoary figure.
Will you tell us, manling? Tell us what we need to know?
“But I don’t know!” Aengelas cried. “I know nothing of what you ask!”
Effortlessly, the Xurjranc snapped Valrissa’s tether, and hoisted her before him, held her as though she were a doll. Bengulla shrieked “Mama! Mama!”
Once again the question thundered through Aengelas’s soul. He [missing] tore at the turf.
“I don’t know! I don’t know!”
Beneath the monstrosity’s claws, Valrissa went very still, like a lamb caught in the jaws of a wolf. Her terrified eyes turned from Aengelas, rolled upwards beneath their lids, as though trying to peer at the fig behind her.
“Valrissa!” Aengelas screamed. “Valrissssaa!” Holding her by the throat, the thing languorously picked her clothes away, like the skin of a rotten peach. As her breasts fell free, [garbled] with soft-pink nipples, a sheet of sunlight flickered across the horizon and illuminated her lithe curves . . . But the hunger that held her from behind remained shadowy—like glistening smoke.
Animal violence overcame Aengelas, and he strained at his leash and gagged inarticulate fury.
And a husky voice in his soul said: We are a race of lovers, manling.
“Beaaassee!” Aengelas wept. “I don’t knoooowww . . .” The thing’s free hand traced a thread of blood between her [missing] across the plane of her shuddering belly. Valrissa’s eyes regarded Aengelas, thick with something impossible. She moaned and parted hanging legs to greet the abomination’s hand. A race of lovers . . .
“I don’t know! I don’t! I don’t! Beaase stop! Beaasse!” The thing screeched like a thousand falcons as it plunged into [missing]. Glass thunder. Shivering sky. She bent back her head, her face contracted in pain and bliss. She convulsed and groaned, arched to meet the creature’s thrusts. And when she climaxed, Aengelas crumpled, grasped his head between his hands, beat his face against the turf. The cold felt good against his broken lips.
With an inhuman, dragon gasp, the thing pressed its bruised prick up across her stomach and washed her sunlit breasts with [unclear] black seed. Another thunderous screech, woven by the thin human wail of a woman.
And again it asked the question.
I don’t know . . .
These things make you weak, it said, tossing her like a sack to cold grasses. With a look, it gave her to the Sranc—to their licentious fury. Once again, it asked the question.
The abomination then gave his weeping son—sweet, innocent Bengulla—to the Sranc, and once again asked the question.
I don’t know what you mean . . .
And when the Sranc made a womb of Aengelas himself, it asked—with each raper’s thrust, it asked . . .
Until the gagging shrieks of his wife and child became the question. Until his own deranged howls became the question . . .
His wife and child were dead. Sacks of penetrated flesh with faces that he loved, and still . . . they did things.
Always, the same mad, incomprehensible question.
Who are the Dûnyain?

philosophical

Popular Human
Jul 17, 2005

and if it's a lie, terrorists made me say it
Yeah, Kellhus is a horrible monster, the world just rallies around him because they have no choice and the alternative is worse (and it really hasn't been made clear yet whether the alternative is really worse).

I was browsing the old thread and I just remembered we decided the No-God was a helicopter. Those were good times. WHAT DO YOU SEE WHUP WHUP WHUP WHUP


Lunchmeat Larry posted:

philosophical

The best part of that is when you read Neuropath and discover that passage wasn't Bakker being '2Xtreme!' for the sake of showing how horrible his villains are - that's Bakker showing restraint.

Popular Human fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jan 7, 2016

anilEhilated
Feb 17, 2014

But I say fuck the rain.

Grimey Drawer
To be fair while I can see some point in defending the fantasy books, Neuropath really doesn't have any redeeming features - at least in the about 2/3 of it I read. Book's just poo poo.

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

urgh yeah I read Neuropath :negative:

A human heart
Oct 10, 2012


Is this the good writing promised by the OP of this thread

Mr.48
May 1, 2007

Added Space posted:

I have to completely disagree with the OP. The series is entirely one-note and preachy in an extremely disturbing way. I'd actually compare it most closely to the Methods of Rationality fanfic, although I will concede that at least the narrative is more tightly focused.

It's all about a genius hero who was raised in a Rationalist Kung Fu monastery in the ways of Being Rational, and this make him totally better then all the poor regular schlubs of the world. They're all helpless before his ability to think clearly and his transparently manipulative sociopathic outbursts. He proceeds to betray and steal the girlfriends of his two allies, because they totally belong on his Rationalist cock, and totally shows up his dad who just wasn't the genius he ended up being. No-one ever calls him out on his poo poo, because of course every other character he goes up against is written as a venial idiot who couldn't hope to show least bit of resistance to Rationalist Supreme. It's transparent wish fulfillment for the smart, antisocial kid who just knew he would be better then everyone else if given the right challenge. Heck, I was pretty much that kid and even I gave up on it because I didn't want to be a manipulative, backstabbing monster.

As for the intricate world and plot, it's been a while, but isn't it just a retelling of the Fourth Crusade with a heavy glop of fantasy make-up? Granted, that was a very interesting story in the annals of history, but all the author really adds to it is magical Jews and Arabs (the Jews are stronger but less numerous), Rationalist Batman co-opting it by pretending to be the Second Coming, and a vague race of shapeshifting aliens.

Kellhus is never meant to be a hero. In his first PoV chapter we see him be abandon a man to die immediately after that man saves his life. He is an amoral sociopath for whom other human beings are just disposable tools.

Yes, Kellhus is god-like in his abilities and the scope of his vision, but the entire thesis of the novels is how terrible it would be if gods actually existed.

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A human heart
Oct 10, 2012

Mr.48 posted:

Yes, Kellhus is god-like in his abilities and the scope of his vision, but the entire thesis of the novels is how terrible it would be if gods actually existed.

Wow, that's really profound.

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