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I just read TDTCB and it's surprisingly good, for a 600 page first volume in a trilogy that's basically just a prologue. The world is vividly described, and I liked the Middle Eastern feel, even if the fantasy names are alphabet soup spiced with diacritics. I liked the characters, even the awful ones,* and the everlasting politicking rang true. The Achamian/Esmenet and Cnaïur/Kellhus relationships were intriguing. Kellhus is a monster, as horrifying as the Inochoros really. They both seem to stand outside the normal world, so I'm not sure if they would end up being allies or enemies. (I suppose the Inochoros is a Consult thing, like whatever Skëaos was?) Despite all the History in the Making and Great Men, there are a lot of pleasingly small-scale or subtle aspects. The funniest bit was the Nansurians arguing about how often to leave a Scylvendi head on a stick, so they didn't run out before they got home, that was worthy of Hugh Cook. *Except Serwë, who was just depressing and irritating.
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Feb 7, 2016 17:48
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House Louse posted:I just read TDTCB and it's surprisingly good, for a 600 page first volume in a trilogy that's basically just a prologue. The world is vividly described, and I liked the Middle Eastern feel, even if the fantasy names are alphabet soup spiced with diacritics. I liked the characters, even the awful ones,* and the everlasting politicking rang true. The Achamian/Esmenet and Cnaïur/Kellhus relationships were intriguing. Kellhus is a monster, as horrifying as the Inochoros really. They both seem to stand outside the normal world, so I'm not sure if they would end up being allies or enemies. (I suppose the Inochoros is a Consult thing, like whatever Skëaos was?) The fantasy names are mostly like Bakker took up a book about ancient Mesopotamian history, skimmed it a couple minutes and later tried to give his characters names randomly chosen from a dozen different cultures mentioned in it. So in a away, even if they look strange to us, he uses names that could actually at one point have been real names. It's basically like a novel full of names like Steve and Susan, just published thousands of years in the future in Japan.  In my opinion, the names are certainly a step up from the dreck normal fantasy comes up with.
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Feb 7, 2016 17:55
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Really? Because they feel random as gently caress, this is a book where you got Dunyadin, Xerius, Cnaiur and Esmenet in one place. Not really sure what puts that above standard fantasy fare.
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Feb 7, 2016 18:07
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anilEhilated posted:Really? Because they feel random as gently caress, this is a book where you got Dunyadin, Xerius, Cnaiur and Esmenet in one place. Not really sure what puts that above standard fantasy fare. You could look this up on Wikipedia if you want, I'm sure they have a lot of articles about Mesopotamia and other ancient cultures. Esmenet: Sounds Egyptian Xerius: Sounds Persian Dunyadin: Probably a Tolkien-reference Cnaiur: I forgot, Hethites maybe? Probably not And this is just literally the first thing going through my head, many other names sound distinctively Babylonian or Assyrian.
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Feb 7, 2016 18:19
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Libluini posted:So in a away, even if they look strange to us, he uses names that could actually at one point have been real names. It's basically like a novel full of names like Steve and Susan, just published thousands of years in the future in Japan. Yeah, a small step. There's some good stuff like Golgotterath/Mengedda (obviously Biblical), and Achamian recalls "Achaemenid", and Sarcellus makes me think of Pulp Fiction of course, but mostly they just kind of blurred together. Worst was "Padirajah". Oh yeah, all these dusky Easterner Saracen cultures are the same. Hope you guys who've read the other books enjoyed my plot guesses.
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Feb 7, 2016 22:57
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I''ll take verisimilitude over factual accuracy any day. Doesn't matter if the names have perfectly justifiable roots in the ancient world, a lot of them feel like a complete mish-mash. It's odd that having put so much detailinto the exact kind f beard habits of the Three Seas, he then doesn't give the names much to distinguish them from each other. Mr. Soul posted:I've really latched on to this stuff. Finished TFT and I was euphoric when akka told kellhus to go gently caress himself right in front of his court. I felt that that scene was Bakker directly having a dig at Dune. It's almost exactly the ending of Dune/Children, with our hero ascendant, the whol civilisation bending to his will, the political and spiritual establishment complletely upended and then
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Feb 7, 2016 23:10
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I''ll take verisimilitude over factual accuracy any day. Doesn't matter if the names have perfectly justifiable roots in the ancient world, a lot of them feel like a complete mish-mash. It's odd that having put so much detailinto the exact kind f beard habits of the Three Seas, he then doesn't give the names much to distinguish them from each other. Most fantasy-novels don't even have that. Seriously, I sometimes skim fantasy novels to find something interesting to read and most of the time the names just make me giggle. As someone with an interest in ancient history, Bakker's naming scheme adds verisimilitude. Too bad it doesn't work for everyone, but welp. It would be boring if we'd all the same, right? 
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Feb 7, 2016 23:16
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It took me 3 books to stop mixing up tydonni and thunyeri. The latter are conans who tie shrunken heads into their hair and the former think brown folks are gross. A nansur is a native of the Empire but I got them confused with the norsirai for a long time. I still can't say wtf norsirai means though.
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Feb 14, 2016 06:45
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Mr. Soul posted:It took me 3 books to stop mixing up tydonni and thunyeri. The latter are conans who tie shrunken heads into their hair and the former think brown folks are gross. A nansur is a native of the Empire but I got them confused with the norsirai for a long time. I still can't say wtf norsirai means though. Norsirai are obvious Norsemen. Tall, blonde and so on.
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Feb 14, 2016 08:56
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Yeah, but a lot of people are tall and blonde. Does anyone else cast roles as they read? Akka has been Eli Wallach since the end of book one. Proyas has always been Stephen Dillane. But I can't shake the vision of a psychotic Jon redcorn as Cnaiur. It's so weird seeing all these amazing actors in my mind's eye and here comes Redcorn.
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Feb 14, 2016 09:26
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I always thought of Akka as Slavoj Zizek.
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Feb 14, 2016 11:09
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I sometimes imagine how the movie-version of a book would look like, with the main protagonist being played by Bruce Willis. But doing this poo poo for the entire book would be a bit much, I think.
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Feb 14, 2016 11:48
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Norsirai and Ketyai are the two major ethnic groups in the story. Most of the people around the three seas are Ketyai, the vaguely swarthy Mediterranean/Middle-Eastern stand-in, including the Nansur and Conriyans and Ainoni and Kianene and so on. The people of the ancient North are the Norsirai, who are tall blonde blue-eyed Aryans. They were the major civilisation of Men for a long time, but their culture was mostly crippled during the First Apocalypse - especially Kûniüri, which took the brunt of it. The Galeoth, Tydonni and Thunyeri I think are the surviving Norsirai nations near the Three Seas, but as far as the actual North it's just the cities of Atrithau and Sakarpus that survived. Then there's the Scylvendi, who are their own distinct ethnic group I think, and the dark-skinned Satyothi, who live mainly in Zeüm (not-Japan) and don't show up until the second trilogy.
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Feb 14, 2016 13:22
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Boing posted:Norsirai and Ketyai are the two major ethnic groups in the story. Most of the people around the three seas are Ketyai, the vaguely swarthy Mediterranean/Middle-Eastern stand-in, including the Nansur and Conriyans and Ainoni and Kianene and so on. The people of the ancient North are the Norsirai, who are tall blonde blue-eyed Aryans. They were the major civilisation of Men for a long time, but their culture was mostly crippled during the First Apocalypse - especially Kûniüri, which took the brunt of it. The Galeoth, Tydonni and Thunyeri I think are the surviving Norsirai nations near the Three Seas, but as far as the actual North it's just the cities of Atrithau and Sakarpus that survived. You mean not-Ethiopia, right?
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Feb 14, 2016 14:25
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Libluini posted:I sometimes imagine how the movie-version of a book would look like, with the main protagonist being played by Bruce Willis. But doing this poo poo for the entire book would be a bit much, I think. It's probably the sign of a lovely imagination but I do this with every book. I read a couple books by Joe Abercrombie and logen is tormund from game of thrones and Bayaz is the nazi doctor from American horror story season 2. I get frustrated when I can't match a character to a face. I can't pin down sorweel but I decided on Tom hardy as captain Kosoter and this demented old drunk in my town as Sarl. Also esmenet is Eva green. Also Esmi's kids are all kinds of strange. What the gently caress is up with kelmomas and the voice in his head? I'm guessing it's a part of samarmas's soul or something but idk. I get the feeling he's planning to usurp kellhus or something though.
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Feb 14, 2016 17:51
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Mr. Soul posted:It's probably the sign of a lovely imagination but I do this with every book. I read a couple books by Joe Abercrombie and logen is tormund from game of thrones and Bayaz is the nazi doctor from American horror story season 2. Don't worry, I've met worse people. At one point I overheard a girl in a bookshop saying she can't read books with male protagonists because she can't identify with them and my reaction was like this:  So yeah, your imagination is still going strong compared with that person. Personally, I'm so bad at remembering faces and names I never even could replace people I read about in a book with actors, even if I wanted to. Case in point: I think I've heard about Joe Abercrombie at some point but the rest of what you said was just gibberish for me. Back on topic, if Kelmomas is one of the sons of Kellhus and I remember him correctly, I think he is just mad. That voice is basically his own insanity manipulating him.
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Feb 14, 2016 18:07
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Yeah all of Kellhus's kids are varying degrees of batshit savants. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a really weird parasitic twin thing going on though.
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Feb 14, 2016 19:04
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I don't want any specifics, but is there any elaboration on the no god and it's WHAT DO YOU SEE talk. It seems to me that it may be unaware of itself somehow and is honestly asking what the gently caress is happening. And I heard someone thinks it's a helicopter, which kind of owns somehow.
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Feb 14, 2016 19:26
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Mr. Soul posted:I don't want any specifics, but is there any elaboration on the no god and it's WHAT DO YOU SEE talk. It seems to me that it may be unaware of itself somehow and is honestly asking what the gently caress is happening. And I heard someone thinks it's a helicopter, which kind of owns somehow. A misogynist helicopter. This is important.
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Feb 16, 2016 15:29
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Boing posted:Norsirai and Ketyai are the two major ethnic groups in the story. Most of the people around the three seas are Ketyai, the vaguely swarthy Mediterranean/Middle-Eastern stand-in, including the Nansur and Conriyans and Ainoni and Kianene and so on. The people of the ancient North are the Norsirai, who are tall blonde blue-eyed Aryans. They were the major civilisation of Men for a long time, but their culture was mostly crippled during the First Apocalypse - especially Kûniüri, which took the brunt of it. The Galeoth, Tydonni and Thunyeri I think are the surviving Norsirai nations near the Three Seas, but as far as the actual North it's just the cities of Atrithau and Sakarpus that survived. admittedly this might not be a concern if you are actually reading the books, but this level of made-up word salad makes my eyes glaze over.
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Feb 16, 2016 16:58
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Mr. Soul posted:I don't want any specifics, but is there any elaboration on the no god and it's WHAT DO YOU SEE talk. It seems to me that it may be unaware of itself somehow and is honestly asking what the gently caress is happening... Mr. Soul posted:And I heard someone thinks it's a helicopter, which kind of owns somehow.
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Feb 17, 2016 01:57
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Something I found really interesting about those scenes is how Bakker riffs on the fantasy myth trope through them. Rather than being vague legends handed down from dark times and mutated, they're 100% accurate because the gnostics see the events every night. This leads to an interesting inversion of the trope, such as when Achamian sees Sauglish for the first time after a lifetime of seeing the city as it was and has to figure out where things are from these vague millenia-old ruins. However, you still get the fun narrative of a fallen medieval society not knowing what the gently caress they are dealing with. Such as the Heron Spear pretty obviously being a giant laser rifle. 
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Feb 17, 2016 10:12
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akulanization posted:admittedly this might not be a concern if you are actually reading the books, but this level of made-up word salad makes my eyes glaze over. Oh yeah I had a hard time with it and I still get mixed up. Especially after finishing asoif where most people and things have names that sound familiar and some people have real names. There's no one whose name is easy like that bakker's stuff. Esmenet and Mimara are the only folks with names that sound real
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Feb 21, 2016 00:18
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Libluini posted:Don't worry, I've met worse people. At one point I overheard a girl in a bookshop saying she can't read books with male protagonists because she can't identify with them and my reaction was like this: Related, while I've only intermittently engaged with online forums on Bakker's work, I don't every recall seeing anyone speculate on how the Dunyain treat their own women. How do hyper-rational products of a thousands of years eugenics campaign treat the (still?) weaker sex? Most of me thinks they'd consider them inferiors specialized for breeding, as that would be most consistent with everything else Bakker writes about women in this world, but maybe I'm wrong, I can imagine a plausible case for going more towards equal partners in the search for truth and development of better descendants. It's unfortunate that recent developments make me doubt we'll ever get a chance to learn what the deal was.
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Feb 23, 2016 01:41
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Saw this thread, clicked on it on a whim, read the OP and admired the art and got the first book out of the library - and loved it. It's every bit as terrible as the thread promised, with unlikable characters and sexism (not one of the female pov characters thinks of anything but how the men think of them, ugh) and rape galore - And yet it was a book I blitzed in several days and enjoyed immensely. The writing was excellent. The setting was a fascinating bizarro Europe. I took the opportunity to go read up on the Crusades. But what really got me about this book is how it evoked that HR Giger-esque atmosphere of eldritch horrors almost despite itself. That scene near the end where the face removed itself - brr. The Consult seem almost comically sinister so far, and yet that scene paid off handsomely. Looking forward to more, even if I have to actually purchase the books now - the library only had the first one, alas.
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Feb 23, 2016 10:00
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Drogue Chronicle posted:Related, while I've only intermittently engaged with online forums on Bakker's work, I don't every recall seeing anyone speculate on how the Dunyain treat their own women. How do hyper-rational products of a thousands of years eugenics campaign treat the (still?) weaker sex? Most of me thinks they'd consider them inferiors specialized for breeding, as that would be most consistent with everything else Bakker writes about women in this world, but maybe I'm wrong, I can imagine a plausible case for going more towards equal partners in the search for truth and development of better descendants. Since there is a lot of Dune in Bakker's stuff Axlotl tanks have been brought up. I don't think that will be it though. We really know very little about Ishual. We only had a few glimpses in the first book and I don't believe anything said about it by Kellhus.
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Feb 23, 2016 11:35
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StrixNebulosa posted:But what really got me about this book is how it evoked that HR Giger-esque atmosphere of eldritch horrors almost despite itself. That scene near the end where the face removed itself - brr. The Consult seem almost comically sinister so far, and yet that scene paid off handsomely. What's amazing is how the later books and the short stories almost manage to make the Consult sympathetic. Bakker loves to start with comically sinister and then try to justify it through rational existential dread.
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Feb 23, 2016 15:53
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Boing posted:What's amazing is how the later books and the short stories almost manage to make the Consult sympathetic. Bakker loves to start with comically sinister and then try to justify it through rational existential dread. Hilariously, this has the opposite effect on me. It managed to make the Consult look stupid in addition to being sinister. Existential dread just isn't something I can emotionally understand. Well I mean I do know that people fear that kind of stuff, it just feels silly to me.
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Feb 23, 2016 16:54
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Libluini posted:Hilariously, this has the opposite effect on me. It managed to make the Consult look stupid in addition to being sinister. Existential dread just isn't something I can emotionally understand. Well I mean I do know that people fear that kind of stuff, it just feels silly to me.
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Feb 23, 2016 17:11
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Libluini posted:Hilariously, this has the opposite effect on me. It managed to make the Consult look stupid in addition to being sinister. Existential dread just isn't something I can emotionally understand. Well I mean I do know that people fear that kind of stuff, it just feels silly to me. It's not "existential dread" in our sense, it's absolute knowledge that hell is real, they will be punished, and they have a way to avoid it and do what they want without consequence. You can analogize it to some men in black coming to hook electrodes up to your nuts, forever, unless you kill enough people for their organization to collapse.
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Feb 23, 2016 17:13
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Drogue Chronicle posted:It's not "existential dread" in our sense, it's absolute knowledge that hell is real, they will be punished, and they have a way to avoid it and do what they want without consequence. You can analogize it to some men in black coming to hook electrodes up to your nuts, forever, unless you kill enough people for their organization to collapse. That analogy would be wrong, though. The people they're killing and planning to kill are just unwittingly helping the MIB in this example. In fact, since they're planning on genociding nearly everyone, their punishment is actually fully justified and they're just digging in deeper at this point. They're genocidal bastards trying to evade their punishment. Libluini fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Feb 23, 2016 |
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Feb 23, 2016 18:00
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Libluini posted:That analogy would be wrong, though. The people they're killing and planning to kill are just unwittingly helping the MIB in this example. That makes them evil, but quite rational. You said they were stupid. There's nothing stupid about avoiding pain. If they felt their punishment was justified they wouldn't behave that way in the first place.
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Feb 23, 2016 18:09
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Libluini posted:That analogy would be wrong, though. The people they're killing and planning to kill are just unwittingly helping the MIB in this example. I find the notion of 'digging in deeper' pretty compelling. They've already sinned enough to be damned for good, so they're going all in on the sin and trying to sin hard enough to wrap round again into not being damned.
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Feb 23, 2016 18:17
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Finished The Warrior-Prophet and I've got to say, the names and general solidity of the world have really grown on me... it's just that one of the main characters is near as dammit called Coitus. I was underwhelmed at first by its length and lack of interest - it's clear Bakker's deliberately using the books' length, I'm just not sure how worthwhile that is. The battle scenes are good. It's really interesting to see him using real-world stories (Passover, the Library of Alexandria) to add depth to a secondary world.Drogue Chronicle posted:Related, while I've only intermittently engaged with online forums on Bakker's work, I don't every recall seeing anyone speculate on how the Dunyain treat their own women. Given how so far I've only seen Kellhus use other people to get what he wants - whatever the specifics are, I bet they're  Dûnyain sex ed is probably abstinence... that works.Mr. Soul posted:I don't want any specifics, but is there any elaboration on the no god and it's WHAT DO YOU SEE talk. It seems to me that it may be unaware of itself somehow and is honestly asking what the gently caress is happening. And I heard someone thinks it's a helicopter, which kind of owns somehow. It's clearly a blind idiot god.
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Feb 23, 2016 18:51
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Is the subject of the third trilogy really a secret? Given that everything in the 2nd Apocalypse is a distorted funhouse version of the first one it's clearly going to be about some southern leader (probably Kelmomas) defeating the No God. Who may or may not be Kelhus in some form. Achamian continues his Seswatha role to the bitter end.
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Feb 23, 2016 18:59
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Boing posted:I find the notion of 'digging in deeper' pretty compelling. They've already sinned enough to be damned for good, so they're going all in on the sin and trying to sin hard enough to wrap round again into not being damned. The problem is, I can't really understand the logic of someone who first sins until he is damned and then just continues sinning because he will be punished anyway. I could understand getting regrets and changing sides in the hope of some small mercy after death, what I can't understand is doubling down on being evil just because. It's insane and selfish behaviour. What I would call stupid. Drogue Chronicle posted:That makes them evil, but quite rational. You said they were stupid. There's nothing stupid about avoiding pain. If they felt their punishment was justified, they would be rational and not stupid. If they'd accept that what they were doing was wrong and tried to change their behaviour, I'd call them smart. And honestly, I would expect every rational person to just suck it up and deal with the pain if the alternative is killing almost every person alive.
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Feb 23, 2016 20:53
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Libluini posted:The problem is, I can't really understand the logic of someone who first sins until he is damned and then just continues sinning because he will be punished anyway. I could understand getting regrets and changing sides in the hope of some small mercy after death, what I can't understand is doubling down on being evil just because. It's insane and selfish behaviour. What I would call stupid. It's not just because, it's a legitimate attempt to scam the system and get out of being damned. Besides which, what you describe isn't exactly an uncommon criminal behaviour.
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Feb 23, 2016 20:56
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Boing posted:It's not just because, it's a legitimate attempt to scam the system and get out of being damned. Besides which, what you describe isn't exactly an uncommon criminal behaviour. Yeah and? I said I consider this behaviour dumb. Nothing you say contradicts this. The villains in this case are dumb assholes like many others both in fiction and real life and that's it. They're good villains because we know dumb evil people exist so we can empathize with the characters fighting this menace. They're however not exactly the brightest bunch I've ever seen. Dangerous and scary, sure. But they do things I consider stupid so I can't call them anything else. 
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Feb 23, 2016 21:14
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House Louse posted:It's clearly a blind idiot god. But does he play the flute?
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Feb 23, 2016 22:34
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Libluini posted:Yeah and? I said I consider this behaviour dumb. Nothing you say contradicts this. The villains in this case are dumb assholes like many others both in fiction and real life and that's it. Which bunch was the brightest you've ever seen? Edit to at least try and be on topic: Why is submitting to someone else's idea of right and wrong and heaven and hell the smart and rational thing to do? I don't think that recognizing your nature and acting within it means you're irrational or stupid, which is kind of what I see going on with the Consult/Inchoroi (can someone remind me of the difference? I haven't read any of these books since WLW was first released). Like, if you're a murderer and you accept that that is what you are and don't see any reasonable way you will ever stop murdering, why is it more rational to put up with life in prison (eternal damnation, whatever) rather than acting within your nature and murdering all the people who would potentially put you in prison? Maybe not the most elegant of analogies, but I think it's completely rational to want to remove the possibility of damnation rather than be subjected to it. Or are there other things they did that you think are dumb? Inspector 34 fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 02:05
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