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Libluini posted:The problem is, I can't really understand the logic of someone who first sins until he is damned and then just continues sinning because he will be punished anyway. I could understand getting regrets and changing sides in the hope of some small mercy after death, what I can't understand is doubling down on being evil just because. It's insane and selfish behaviour. What I would call stupid. The behavior that damns them is using magic. Once the Stain is on you, gently caress you, you're hosed, thanks for playing. WLW goes into some detail that it's not necessarily a great gig to be a mundane human unless you pick the right deity to spend your life sucking up to, but sorcerers (with the possible exception of the Water Bearers, which is interesting on a lot of levels) have the choice between "slam the door to the Outside shut, which necessitates genocide" and "suffer eternal torment, 100% guaranteed". Really, the Consult should be having another go at showing their proof to other mages and turning them into insane apocalypse cultists, because it's a fairly compelling argument if you are in any way persuadeable to be a selfish dickhead. It is implied that Kellhus has come up with another, probably monstrous solution, but in fairness to the Consult, they hang out with the Inchoroi, who have spent many eons traveling the galaxy to kill almost everybody on any given planet in hopes of achieving the design goal. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 02:22
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I just finished the initial trilogy and, while I enjoyed it, I can see why Bakker isn't particularly popular and I'm not certain who his intended audience really is; people interested in going beyond surface-level reading and deconstructing meaning from their novels aren't generally into books about wizards, and people who are into books about wizards aren't generally into introspection and philosophical exploration. While they share little in the way of thematic elements, this series reminds me a little of KSR's 2312 in that I wish books of its nature were more popular, but I understand why they aren't. Is the second trilogy worth picking up next time I'm in the mood for genre?
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Mar 15, 2016 17:58
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Wheeee posted:in that I wish books of its nature were more popular, but I understand why they aren't. Definitely, if anything, it's even better than the first trilogy so far; you're not going to get much of anything else that comes close to it's overall quality in the genre, and also for the very reason you already stated.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:44
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The second trilogy has a very different tone and theme (so far) to the first - and I feel like I strongly preferred the first. The themes are very human - it's all about free will and religion and culture and things like that, whereas the second trilogy takes a very objective approach and gets much more into the world and its history and its metaphysics. Which is interesting, but those aren't the parts I liked most about the first. Still definitely worth reading though, if you like what Bakker does in general. I liked damnation much more when I interpreted it as a social construct - sorcerors are damned because the holy book says they're damned, and religion is of course a product of Men who were scared of sorcery and its power, so they used religion (not just the Tusk, but its general thrust) to subdue them. Kellhus manages to be a liberator who shows people the truth even as he manipulates his way into their hearts. The second Boing fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 20:26
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Boing posted:the second trilogy takes a very objective approach and gets much more into the world and its history and its metaphysics. That doesn't sound particularly interesting to me, but I'll probably check it out at some point.
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Mar 15, 2016 21:28
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GreyjoyBastard posted:(with the possible exception of the Water Bearers, which is interesting on a lot of levels) The Water Bearers are the best. Fane gets thrown into the desert with his eyes torn out, but then just invents an entirely new form of magic that is apparently a-okay with the objective morality of the universe and a new religion that finally puts those lovely gods in their place. Too bad there is only a single Cishaurim left. They were too  to survive.
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Mar 15, 2016 23:59
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I finished The Thousandfold Thought and it was pretty underwhelming. Lots of battle scenes and people riding about looking for other people, and the ending felt very rushed. As did some other scenes, like the bit where Maithanet turns up and tells the Quorum his spies have found a skinspy amongst them - I'm not sure what the point of that was because there weren't any reactions to it. Sequel hook? The Warrior-Prophet was an unusual fat fantasy novel in that it felt like its length had a purpose; this just felt padded. Using Akka and Esmenet's relationship as the backbone of the series paid off, and it was nice to see Esmenet having a relationship with someone not male or dead. Obviously you can't use the viewpoint of a character like Kellhus too much, and it's a big moment when Bakker returns to his POV after having abandoned it for, IIRC, most of Warrior-Prophet and Thousandfold Thought. I'm not sure what's going on with him though. He seems to be having the same delusions of glowing hands as his followers, implying that they're not due to insanity, but he then goes and kills Moënghus, which seems motiveless. Is the nature of the Thousandfold Thought ever made clear? It seems to be the master plan for defeating the Consult, which Moënghus manipulating Kellhus into also devising. Is there anything more to it? I think the detail and realism of Bakker's world, and the use of this world to give it depth and meaning, are his biggest assets. The verbal and structural echoes are meaningful but also have the freedom of a created world. E: Oh yeah, one other thing. How do Dûnyain inherit names? Because there could easily be a situation where they all have the same surname... come to think of it, if they never go outside Ishuäl, why aren't they all inbred to the the Nth degree? Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 08:17
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House Louse posted:E: Oh yeah, one other thing. How do Dûnyain inherit names? Because there could easily be a situation where they all have the same surname... come to think of it, if they never go outside Ishuäl, why aren't they all inbred to the the Nth degree? I've heard NASA made a recent study about this kind of thing. Turns out as long as you're really carefully planning everything out, you can have a healthy genetical base with something ridiculously low as ~80 people or even less. Now I'm sure Bakker didn't know about this when he started writing this series, but welp. It's still possible. 
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Mar 23, 2016 11:28
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Libluini posted:I've heard NASA made a recent study about this kind of thing. Turns out as long as you're really carefully planning everything out, you can have a healthy genetical base with something ridiculously low as ~80 people or even less. It's also a thing the Dunyain would probably be ruthlessly efficient at.
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Mar 23, 2016 21:28
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I think you can assume Dunyain genetics actually are screwed up - if I remember right Kellhus casually remembers learning about face muscle structure from skinned/pinned "defectives" in Ishual, his kids are all screwed up, etc. In-story they take it as "the seed is too strong" or whatever, but there may have been tons of birth defects that were killed/experimented on/whatever, and the ones we meet are just the ones whose genetic abnormalities make them superman?
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Mar 23, 2016 22:09
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There are real life examples of genes that are beneficial in heterozygotes but harmful in homozygotes. Not surprised that, uhh, dunyain engineering has run into a few.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:47
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Libluini posted:I've heard NASA made a recent study about this kind of thing. Turns out as long as you're really carefully planning everything out, you can have a healthy genetical base with something ridiculously low as ~80 people or even less. Wasn't that in the ancient history thread or something? I remember that too. But... 1. Do the Bronze Age Dûnyain know about genetics? 2. It's funny to think of Kellhus, the mighty Warrior-Prophet and Aspect-Emperor, as Charles II of Spain, the drooling idiot. thumper57 posted:I think you can assume Dunyain genetics actually are screwed up - if I remember right Kellhus casually remembers learning about face muscle structure from skinned/pinned "defectives" in Ishual Oh yeah, I forgot them. Rather similar to the way he treats skin-spies, isn't it? Is the name "the Consult" ever explained? It's weird to see a verb being used as a proper noun.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:34
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thumper57 posted:I think you can assume Dunyain genetics actually are screwed up - if I remember right Kellhus casually remembers learning about face muscle structure from skinned/pinned "defectives" in Ishual, his kids are all screwed up, etc. In-story they take it as "the seed is too strong" or whatever, but there may have been tons of birth defects that were killed/experimented on/whatever, and the ones we meet are just the ones whose genetic abnormalities make them superman? There's also the possibility that the Dunyain have Non Man blood in the mix too. IIRC, regular human females couldn't bear Non Man children, but the opposite wasn't true, and there was an Anasûrimbor in ancient history that had impregnated a Non Woman.
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Mar 24, 2016 04:41
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House Louse posted:2. It's funny to think of Kellhus, the mighty Warrior-Prophet and Aspect-Emperor, as Charles II of Spain, the drooling idiot. Oh you are gonna love the Judging Eye.
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Mar 24, 2016 19:01
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Darkrenown posted:Sure, the reader can see Kellhus is awful, but everyone in world seems to love him (aside from the Byzantium prince who just seems to hate him because he's so popular) and he's great at everything. Isn't that normal for a mary-sue then? Even Emo-Conan who started out hating him and resisting him falls for him in 2 books or so. Akka gives away his magic-secrets and is still besties with him when he comes back from being tortured and finds him screwing his wife, I didn't get to where Akka sees he's the devil, so it's nice he finally does, but I don't think I'll read any more. The scene where he finally does is loving amazing. Skip ahead if you're going to quit, it's like 3 pages.
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Apr 23, 2016 23:12
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I still haven't begun the second series. However, I recently found that the phrase "the great ordeal" is taken from Revelation 7:14 (apparently only in the New Revised Standard Version; AV prefers "tribulation"):NRSV posted:I said to him, "Sir, you are the one that knows." Then he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Describing martyrs living and praising God upon his throne. (I'm slightly spoiled for the series; the verses immediately before descibe the sealing of the 144,000, which I know has something to do with the Bakker.) The "great ordeal" also turns up in Matthew 24: Jesus describes the end of the world and his return, and warns the disciples against false prophets: NRSV posted:For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. [...] Immediately after the suffering of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory. (The "suffering" of those days is, I think, the same word in Hebrew as used for "the great ordeal".) Obviously I don't think Bakker is copying the Bible, merely using it. Point being, the meaning of "Apocalypse" isn't the end of the world, it's "revelation". In the First Apocalypse, the No-God was revealed to the world. What's coming this time around?
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May 14, 2016 12:03
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The Mandates mantra is also an inversion of jesus' "what good is it to gain the world if you lose your soul?" One of the epigraphs is also an obvious riff on "when I was a child I thought as a child." The epigraphs I think are some of the strongest parts of Bakkers writing. They drive home just how dark and cynical the philosophies of Earwa are. Compare to Malazan , where the weirdly serene poetry never sat comfortably alongside the rape and cannibalism. There's elements of all sorts of philosophers that are given a nihilistic twist all through the book, but my knowledge of the classics doesn't let me get much beyond "well Ajencis feels kinda like Descartes".
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May 14, 2016 15:26
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House Louse posted:I still haven't begun the second series. However, I recently found that the phrase "the great ordeal" is taken from Revelation 7:14 (apparently only in the New Revised Standard Version; AV prefers "tribulation"): Oh man, you should definitely start the second series, especially since you seem to enjoy analyzing these types of things. Bakker just ups the ante on all of it and gives you so much more to speculate about. Plus, the next one is coming out soon, so why risk spoiling yourself even more before reading the other two, and deprive yourself of theorizing about it before the next volume reveals more answers.
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May 18, 2016 16:14
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Yah, I've been holding off on the second trilogy because it's incomplete, even have the first book in paper format somewhere (so it predates my switch to mostly ebooks), maybe it's time to dig that out soon.
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May 18, 2016 17:48
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savinhill posted:Oh man, you should definitely start the second series, especially since you seem to enjoy analyzing these types of things. Bakker just ups the ante on all of it and gives you so much more to speculate about. Plus, the next one is coming out soon, so why risk spoiling yourself even more before reading the other two, and deprive yourself of theorizing about it before the next volume reveals more answers. I'd like to but I can't get them here Strom Cuzewon posted:The Mandates mantra is also an inversion of jesus' "what good is it to gain the world if you lose your soul?" One of the epigraphs is also an obvious riff on "when I was a child I thought as a child." I said upthread I think Bakker's use of the real world to light Eärwa is one of its most interesting aspects, though I'm too ignorant to pick up on most of the philosophical bits. I thought Ajencis was more like Socrates for some reason though. I dunno.
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May 19, 2016 16:19
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A complete version of that preview chapter was posted. God am I pumped now: http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2016/04/look-what-cat-dragged-in.html
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May 19, 2016 16:40
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House Louse posted:I'd like to but I can't get them here Oh yeah probably. I was thinking of Ajencian Nail where he sits down to think out the only thing he can be sure of ("that I am less ignorant than before") which is what Descartes does in the intro to his cogito, even if they're vastly different.
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May 19, 2016 17:21
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:A complete version of that preview chapter was posted. God am I pumped now: I'm so jealous of advance reading copies. The rest of us normal folks has to wait until August. After all that waiting for the second trilogy to finish, even more waiting!  At least it looks like the end is near.
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May 19, 2016 17:34
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The end isn't that near because it's split into two books... . Still, I'm super excited. Hopefully it sells well so the others get more traction with the publisher.
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May 19, 2016 17:35
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House Louse posted:I'd like to but I can't get them here He's Aristotle. The Philosopher anyone educated has to learn about and read, just like Aristotle was in the middle ages.
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May 19, 2016 18:19
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Does it make sense to start a new thread when the book drops?
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May 20, 2016 02:41
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Aww but we're just about to hit page 5!!!
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May 20, 2016 08:01
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Yeah, I could understand a new thread if this was one of those mega-threads with 500+ pages, those are unweildy as gently caress. But 5 pages? Nah, we're good.
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May 20, 2016 09:05
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Could we change the title to something less off putting? Everyone gets far too hung up on sranc spunk
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May 20, 2016 10:16
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Could we change the title to something less off putting? Everyone gets far too hung up on sranc spunk The Book Barn › R. Scott Bakker: Everyone gets far too hung up on sranc spunk
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May 20, 2016 10:37
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Oh yeah probably. I was thinking of Ajencian Nail where he sits down to think out the only thing he can be sure of ("that I am less ignorant than before") which is what Descartes does in the intro to his cogito, even if they're vastly different. See, I didn't even know that; I was thinking the Nail was a take on Socrates' scepticism. But I suppose it's just possible Descartes got there before Bakker, maybe. The Vosgian Beast posted:He's Aristotle. The Philosopher anyone educated has to learn about and read, just like Aristotle was in the middle ages. This too of course. "Ajencis says..."
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May 20, 2016 16:09
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I see by my kindle status that I shelved The Thousandfold Thought 1/4 into the book. It's some time ago, so I can't really remember why I dropped it. Good choice to restart the book on page 1?
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May 23, 2016 13:42
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Daktari posted:I see by my kindle status that I shelved The Thousandfold Thought 1/4 into the book. Yeah. The middle half kinda drags, so if you try and pick up where you left off you'll probably stall out again. Start at the top, enjoy Conphas getting smacked down, and ride that high all the way to the  finale.
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May 23, 2016 13:56
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yeah. The middle half kinda drags, so if you try and pick up where you left off you'll probably stall out again. Start at the top, enjoy Conphas getting smacked down, and ride that high all the way to the It didn't take much to convince me. I'm already reading recaps on the previous books
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May 23, 2016 15:33
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Daktari posted:It didn't take much to convince me. I'm already reading recaps on the previous books Excellent! Please keep us updated with your opinions of what Kellhus' endgame is. Love hearing some good speculation.
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May 25, 2016 21:55
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Any opinion on the audiobooks for this series? My books are in storage, considering trying an Audible reread.
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May 25, 2016 22:24
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I read that some of the Advance Reading Copies ended up on ebay. One went for $150 dollars (Which i totally would have paid if I had it and thought to check ebay) while some of the first copies sold were going for $15. With the waiting I have endured for this I would name my first born child "Sranc Spunk" if it got me a copy faster.
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May 26, 2016 01:09
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Alfredo Pangea posted:I read that some of the Advance Reading Copies ended up on ebay. One went for $150 dollars (Which i totally would have paid if I had it and thought to check ebay) while some of the first copies sold were going for $15. With the waiting I have endured for this I would name my first born child "Sranc Spunk" if it got me a copy faster. If you need someone to cut its newborn belly open and cum in the wound, lmk.
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May 26, 2016 09:17
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The Ninth Layer posted:Any opinion on the audiobooks for this series? My books are in storage, considering trying an Audible reread. I like them a lot. The guy starts off sounding pretty dry and it's hard if you're unfamiliar with Bakker's fantasy names, but he gets really into it. He does an excellent Cnaiur-as-Arnold-Schwarzenegger.
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May 26, 2016 10:02
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:If you need someone to cut its newborn belly open and cum in the wound, lmk. That is vile! To let a stranger do that when everyone knows that is a job for a skin spy rabbi! drat now I want a name change to "Skin Spy Rabbi"!
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May 26, 2016 13:51
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