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Strom Cuzewon posted:Excellent! Please keep us updated with your opinions of what Kellhus' endgame is. Love hearing some good speculation. I have no idea of his motivation other than a) his brain was broken by exposure to the world outside Ishual or b) he's actually a prophet of sorts; God is working through him without him realising it.
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May 26, 2016 14:58
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A Wertzone review of The Great Ordeal.quote:Characterisation is, as usual, very strong and Bakker seems to tacitly acknowledge the criticisms he has had in the past with a very limited roster of female characters by increasing the amount of screentime for Serwa, Kellhus's daughter and the most intriguing of the new generation of characters. Mimara's importance also increases dramatically in this volume, as it begins to appear that her Judging Eye may hold the ultimate answer to the questions so many characters hold about the Consult and Kellhus himself. The metaphysics of Earwa which seem to hold - on this world anyway - women as an inferior sex are also better explained and shown to be the fault of men and religious dogma (rather than some kind of deep-seated authorial problem) more explicitly than before. Seems like the last part can't come out fast enough.
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May 30, 2016 07:12
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Man the whale mothers really don't mesh well with TDTCB, which is weird because I'm sure Bakker had them in mind (as ridiculous as they may be). It's kinda funny to read child Kellhus imagining a beautiful woman's arched back, or seeing adult Kellhus use his nail of heaven sex moves, when he has in fact never met or had sex with a human woman until TDTCB
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Jun 12, 2016 08:28
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Where are you getting this from? Advance copy?
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Jun 12, 2016 15:42
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Two chapters have been released as previews, check my earlier post for that one.
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Jun 12, 2016 16:48
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Huh, the new characters introduced in that chapter muddy my ideas about how this series will progress, based on my assumption that it will be very similar to the first apocalypse. I originally had Kelmomas in the role of Anaxophus V, but maybe he's going in another direction and it won't be so close a mirror.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:33
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Number Ten Cocks posted:Where are you getting this from? Advance copy? I'm receiving an advance copy from my rear end
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Jun 13, 2016 02:13
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Is there a good summary of the last two books somewhere? I remember very little of the Esmenet stuff and almost nothing of the ordeal.
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Jun 15, 2016 17:24
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Achamian and Mimara went on a quest to find the home of the Dunyain, and when they got there it was totally destroyed. Mimara can view objective morality and the Consult have a prophecy she's important. Esmenet hosed everything up back in the capital and there was an attempted coup, now the Fanim are invading. One of her kids died, she's obsessed with her 'normal' kid who is actually a total sociopath. The Ordeal isn't designed to ever come home, Kellhus sent some hostages to the Nonmen but the Nonmen have already sided with the Consult. To survive they're eating Sranc and are probably all going to go insane.
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Jun 15, 2016 18:05
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Yeah, but what's with the plains kid that the gods are hiding from Kellhus? What was a white luck warrior anyway?
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Jun 15, 2016 18:09
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Wxhode posted:Yeah, but what's with the plains kid that the gods are hiding from Kellhus? What was a white luck warrior anyway?
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Jun 15, 2016 18:32
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Wxhode posted:Yeah, but what's with the plains kid that the gods are hiding from Kellhus? What was a white luck warrior anyway? The white-luck warrior is a servant of Yatwer - the white-luck is when chance swings in the favour of the gods, and the white-luck warrior "wills what happens as it happens". From his chapters he's seemingly four-dimensional, he does everything he does because he sees himself doing it in the future (*cough* Dune *cough*). He's conveniently in the right place to save Esmenet from assassination, and his blade has been chipped in just the right place so that when he fight's Kellhus it will shatter and pierce his heart.
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Jun 15, 2016 18:38
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drat, I have to read the latest preview material from the next book. I just have an aversion to preview chapters after being such a big grrm fan and having Dance with dragons feel like I read a good chunk of it when I got it from it taking so long and reading so many preview chapters and other bullshit that would leak.
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Jun 16, 2016 02:02
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I'm just going to wait for the main book. Half the time I read preview chapters, ive forgotten the details by the time I have the book anyway.
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Jun 16, 2016 04:21
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Wxhode posted:Is there a good summary of the last two books somewhere? I remember very little of the Esmenet stuff and almost nothing of the ordeal. The book itself supposedly contains a lengthy "what came before" section.
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Jun 16, 2016 09:24
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genericnick posted:The book itself supposedly contains a lengthy "what came before" section. Yeah, the Judging Eye and The White Luck Warrior both have very good summaries at the beginning of each of What Came Before. They're set up and written pretty well too, so they're probably the best and easiest way to kick-start your memory for the new book. Only a couple weeks too, so pumped!
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Jun 16, 2016 20:49
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General Battuta posted:Man the whale mothers really don't mesh well with TDTCB, which is weird because I'm sure Bakker had them in mind (as ridiculous as they may be). It's kinda funny to read child Kellhus imagining a beautiful woman's arched back, or seeing adult Kellhus use his nail of heaven sex moves, when he has in fact never met or had sex with a human woman until TDTCB I could easily imagine the Dunyain capturing both male and female humans for all types of experimentation besides that face reading stuff they did, with one specifically being dehumanizing stuff to train the lust out of young Dunyain.
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Jun 17, 2016 05:12
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genericnick posted:The book itself supposedly contains a lengthy "what came before" section. In the future all fantasy novels will include a wikipedia summary of the previous one, so that you can get to the action immediately
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Jun 17, 2016 08:36
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A human heart posted:In the future all fantasy novels will include a wikipedia summary of the previous one, so that you can get to the action immediately In the future? I've had novels from the 80s and earlier with that gimmick. Well, obviously Wikipedia didn't exist back then, but the point still stands. For example, Memory, Sorrow and Thorn by Tad Williams came with lengthy summaries in every book after the first one. In Germany we even got an extra-summary, because the trilogy was broken up into four books. Edit: The summary in Der Engelsturm was basically a small novella on its own.
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Jun 17, 2016 10:16
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The female dunedain reveal kind of makes Esmenet's random quasi-genetic compatibility even more WTF.
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Jun 17, 2016 13:43
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Turdis McWordis posted:The female dunedain reveal kind of makes Esmenet's random quasi-genetic compatibility even more WTF. What? Did you miss the parts describing her as "A large sea mammal whose nickname at the salt water brothel she lived in, was Shamu.." Or the great foreshadowing where she dispelled the client's black demonseed through her blowhole?
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Jun 17, 2016 14:31
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i was simultaneously rereading some cormac mcarthy whilst rereading pon and tae and realised that tje is hugely inspired by blood meridian and that the tolkien influence is way more apparent in tae with cil-aujas and sarl becoming gollum whereas pon is straight dune
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Jun 28, 2016 14:52
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I actually forget, what happened to Sarl? He certainly didn't go with Achamian and Mimara to Ishual but I thought I remembered him surviving. I guess the consult dudes that were trailing the group might have him?
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Jun 28, 2016 15:28
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I actually forget, what happened to Sarl? He certainly didn't go with Achamian and Mimara to Ishual but I thought I remembered him surviving. I guess the consult dudes that were trailing the group might have him? According the to the wiki, Achamian and Mimarar abandoned him at Sauglish.
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Jun 28, 2016 18:50
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:According the to the wiki, Achamian and Mimarar abandoned him at Sauglish.
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Jun 28, 2016 18:57
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It's implied he follows them for qirri
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Jun 28, 2016 23:09
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I haven't heard of this before. The op mentions it is 'brutal', is it grim dark brutal hardcore for the sake of it? Are there elves?
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Jun 29, 2016 22:15
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Reason posted:I haven't heard of this before. The op mentions it is 'brutal', is it grim dark brutal hardcore for the sake of it? Are there elves?
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Jun 29, 2016 22:20
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Haha oh man. ok thanks
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Jun 29, 2016 22:30
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Reason posted:I haven't heard of this before. The op mentions it is 'brutal', is it grim dark brutal hardcore for the sake of it? Are there elves? It is a bleak and uncaring nihilistic universe, what TVtropes would call a "crapsack world", so there's a lot of rape and murder. I would however, argue that it's largely artistically justified. When I say the world is nihilistic, I mean that precisely. The philosopher, the poetry, the language of the world all argues the impossibility of moral meaning. I started highlighting all the idioms and figures of speech in the books, and all of them are critical, puncturing bravery and idealism. For the world to not be one of unrelenting misery would clash with the attitudes and beliefs of the characters. The infamous "black demon seed" of the title is one of the best handled rape scenes in fantasy - it treats it with appropriate gravitas, and it forms a key part of that characters story, without reducing her to just "rape victim". It doesn't have elves, but there's a handful of "nonmen" in the later books who are clearly based on theidea "how could elves live for thousands of years without going crazy? " although I always picture them as the Engineers from prometheus
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Jun 29, 2016 22:38
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The series is purposefully hideous and misogynistic because it wants to make a critical argument about the nature of oppression, belief, and society, and then accidentally hideous and misogynistic on top of that because Bakker's by his own admission not very good at writing about women or anything to do with sexual violence. The guy believes men are intrinsically aroused by rape and that he has to provoke the acknowledgment of this reflex by writing sexy rape. It's really amazingly creative and excellent at some poo poo (the deep history of the setting, the handling of sorcery, the crunchy interplay of personalities and intrigues in big political realignments, everything to do with Golgotterath and the No-God, the battles, the Nonmen/elves) and just totally laughably awful at other stuff. It's not an easy mediocre, it's got a lot to recommend it, even if Bakker's understanding of neuro/psychology is pretty 101. But it's the definition of a marmite series. I'm really excited for the next one, I can't wait for more hosed up metaphysics and gigeresque Consult.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:38
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General Battuta posted:even if Bakker's understanding of neuro/psychology is pretty 101. I always wonder why people say this. None of the neuro/psychology in his books leaps out at me as being especially wrong, but I've not read anyone who digs as deep or as well into the philosophy of neuroscience or the psychological problems with freedom.
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Jun 30, 2016 08:29
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Boing posted:I always wonder why people say this. None of the neuro/psychology in his books leaps out at me as being especially wrong, but I've not read anyone who digs as deep or as well into the philosophy of neuroscience or the psychological problems with freedom. Because he wrote a stand-alone novel Neuropath which is despised by all goons that know anything about neuroscience and/or psychology.
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Jun 30, 2016 11:31
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I know a lot about neuroscience and psychology and I loving love Neuropath, it's one of my favourite books e: Also that doesn't actually mean that his psychology is bad, merely that his grasp of it is uncomfortable, which it sure is Boing fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 12:50
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I know nothing about Neuroscience but I hated the book. (Love his fantasy novels though)
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Jun 30, 2016 13:18
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Boing posted:I always wonder why people say this. None of the neuro/psychology in his books leaps out at me as being especially wrong, but I've not read anyone who digs as deep or as well into the philosophy of neuroscience or the psychological problems with freedom. The short version is that I was a social neuro oh god why I am in a phd program what's wrong with my life guy at NYU for a while, and Bakker deals with neuroscience and psychology in a very basic way. He's interested in the psychological ramifications of the illusion of pure agency, but nothing he writes about is really grounded in the specifics of science. He writes about psychology the way gurus write about quantum theory. I say this with good confidence because I just reread all the PoN books, and Kellhus' capabilities are pretty Freudian. He imputes subconscious desires and fears from facial microexpressions, reveals them, and uses them as levers. He's capable of modulating his own voice and expression to create emotions through feedback. He analyzes structures of tradition and belief and figures out how to exploit them to ratchet up his own authority. And that's...pretty much it. The Probability Trance is awesome but pure fantasy. The problem with all of this is that it's a very old conception of how social neuro works, individual-to-individual or individual-to-crowd effects, and twenty years of brutal and often depressing research suggests that Kellhus has completely overlooked the very area he needs to master - the real 'darkness that comes before', the unconscious brain subsystems that deal in primes, statistical prototypes, and preconscious framing. Peter Watts is an example of someone who's much crunchier (and much more radical) in how he handles neuro. Kellhus would be hosed if he met some scramblers, because scramblers are better-researched  Neuropath is a good point to critique. It's a whole book predicated on this dire dread argument that clearly bothers Bakker deeply: the idea that we're Just Brains, and as we begin to modify those traits we've previously treated as fundamental, we'll open up horrifying new vistas of exploitation and brainfuckery. But the argument Bakker's so afraid of has been obvious for decades: it's like watching an author panic that relativity implies our futures are fixed. Yes, you can be compelled to do things while believing they're volitional! Yes, your beliefs and actions are strongly influenced by priming and context! So? He ends the book where an interesting book would begin. His terror is deeply conservative - knowledge and change will erode traditional mores and turn us all into serial killers. Bakker specifically believes that men will use science to oppress women more, and that women are being conditioned into obeying. The dude once pointed out that women in the West had escaped genital mutilation only to seek out voluntary labiaplasty, wasn't this a sick irony? No, man, those are not the same thing at all. Kellhus is another example (one I'm more willing to forgive because he's just a rhetorical device). Kellhus apprehends the hidden causal pathways behind individual belief, and manipulates them to achieve power. But Bakker should know from even a cursory study of culture-gene coevolution that Kellhus is totally hosed, and in fact, he even makes the argument as to why Kellhus is hosed - but applies it only to Esmenet! Cultural norms serve as a safeguard against exploitation of the group's commons by free-rider sociopaths. You can be as clever, calculating, and individually brilliant as you please, but you're up against thousands of years of a massively iterated security system that deploys ingroup-outgroup cues to confine individual agency to socially useful roles. Kellhus wouldn't make it because he believes that mastery of antecedents can achieve mastery of outcomes, when the great lesson of social psychology is that significant behavioral antecedents cannot be influenced by the individual. Good luck presenting the brain's inferential subsystems with thousands of stimuli over dozens of years to re-weight implicit prejudices, my dudeyain. Also, whale mothers, lol Bakker's great at writing fantasy that feels as horrible, sweeping, and soul-searing as the Bible. He's a really unique author. His interest in the philosophy of the self-as-caused allows for an awesome ~magic system~ and fantastic villains. He doesn't have much of interest to say to the neuroscientist or the psychologist, because he's following a very deep and very well-explored track. A Prince of Nothing interested in cutting-edge psychology would His Blind Brain Theory is the syllabus summary of an undergraduate class. It's the beginning of modern neuroscience, not the end. e: it strikes me on reflection that Bakker's terror of the ramifications of neuroscience is a philosopher's terror. He's afraid of losing concepts like intentionality that are important to philosophical discourse, but which never mattered to the scientists. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 15:51
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Also on reread the second trilogy sucks because two of the three major POVs are incredibly boring. Achamian's thread owns though.
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Jun 30, 2016 16:05
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Yeah I reread them a year or two ago and it seemed like it took two books of setup for sorweel to do something interesting. I'm looking forward to the nonman city for sure though - hopefully that part is good. Achamian's thread is the best throughout, that was true in the original trilogy too.
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Jun 30, 2016 16:30
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General Battuta posted:Also on reread the second trilogy sucks because two of the three major POVs are incredibly boring. Achamian's thread owns though. Depends on whether you consider Sorweel a major POV. Because if you do, than we disagree. The whole "Sorweel meets world" part is handled really well and still lingers with me years after reading, and the tension stemming from Kellhus' inability to read him I found quite exciting.
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Jun 30, 2016 16:34
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mcustic posted:Depends on whether you consider Sorweel a major POV. Because if you do, than we disagree. The whole "Sorweel meets world" part is handled really well and still lingers with me years after reading, and the tension stemming from Kellhus' inability to read him I found quite exciting. I did like that scene! That scene was cool. I find most of his perspective really dull, though, and I think that's coming off the first trilogy, where we had: the most violent of all men delusional god emperor delusional god general mentat jesus chubby apocalypse sorcerer prostitute spy who got shortchanged by the writer guest appearances by the prince of piety, chief bathrobe of the scarlet spires, a gently caress bird, and the death-swirling omniscient POV and, uh, serwe Now we've got: poo poo herder prostitute empress who refuses to be as competent as her historical antecedents achamian + mimara's elf drugs death march
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Jun 30, 2016 16:44
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