FATAL & Friends 2016-19: Bad Rules and Hidden Jewels

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Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Wait so they're giant murder machines who don't get a physical stats buff?

That seems like a "you had one job" situation

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 18:46

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 12:52

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Desiden posted:

Given how everything else about why Beasts aren't unequivocally the bad guys for everything boils down to "writer fiat", I suppose "make hunters soul search in a way they don't with more ambiguous monsters" is fully within the setting dictated parameters of Beast.

"Everybody keeps saying I should feel worse about this than I do, which is, not at all" would be kind of a funny approach to take with Hunters and Beasts. Though a better one is none at all, in fairness.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2017 19:42

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

The Sin of Onan posted:

Sorry If it helps, I'm somewhat less idle this weekend than I was over the week (work is being weird), so it might be a couple of days before the next Tooth and Nail part. There's probably two more parts left in it (or perhaps four; I'm not sure if I should do one big Compacts writeup or three smaller ones, one for each Compact. Any thoughts?).

Small writeups = faster writeups for you = more frequent reading for us = Just Post

# ¿ Feb 10, 2017 21:13

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Selachian posted:

Yeah, I raised an eyebrow at Sorcery and Sortilege being separate stats.

So, the physical pool basically breaks down to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, while the mental pool is Intelligence, Charisma, Wisdom, and some kind of magical aptitude?

("Sortilege" is one of those Gygaxian words you sometimes stumble over in extruded swords-n-sorcery product. Like "dweomer" and "thew.")

Int/Wis/Cha + the PtbA "Ask GM some game facts" / Roll +Weird kinda thing, is my read on it.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2017 21:21

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Evil Mastermind posted:

Man I really need to work on the Fragged Empire review just to counteract all this crap.

Yes please do, I bought the Protagonist Archive the other day and want more people talking about this dang game.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2017 23:08

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

The discussion of Integrity v Morality is especially relevant given Dark Ages' preponderance of Paths of What I Was Going To Do Anyway. I am excited.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2017 22:04

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Hostile V posted:

Yeah sometimes I get a little too thorough for my own good but...I dunno. I at least try to put it in my own words I guess. I will endeavor to not just rip whole dang chunks out of the book but there's only so much I can do, using it as a guide and all.

This specific thing kind of needs it though, given that otherwise saying "it's a give and take and requires fiddly crap to add up" doesn't really convey the specific levers you need to throw and buttons pressed to get your magical immortality out properly.

If the other Immortals have similar stuff, I say keep them in---I don't know about anyone else, but I've bought more books because of this thread than I can care to count, so you're only doing a net good here.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2017 15:21

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

That there was even a vote after "Aztec cultists in Texas" disappoints me.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2017 21:34

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Cease to Hope posted:

don't worry, i'm about to do some crapping, including on class balance. this game is fascinating but it has Problems

Climb onto the tallest ladder you can find for when you poo poo on 13a wood elves please and thank you.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2017 01:20

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Halloween Jack posted:

A game where the PCs are fantasy farmers, and actually stay farmers, is not a bad idea either. Get outta the way, Dale, I get +4 AC vs. ankhegs!

The challenge is that you have to build the game around the threats coming to them rather than vice versa, or the threats literally popping up in their neighbourhood. There aren't a lot of examples to follow, at least not in D&D type games.

Structure it like Harvest Moon / Stardew Valley, but with monsters.

Awesome! We levelled up enough that we can trivially dismiss the ankheg infestation in the fields, as well as finally seal up all those kobold holes.

Now, we just need to deal with the dire bulettes on the OTHER half of the property.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2017 20:30

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Subjunctive posted:

I always wondered how the enemy knew which character marked them, so they knew who to attack without penalty. (It also seems to require a minimum of intelligence in the enemy. A wolf isn't going to realize what being marked means.)

"Intelligence necessary to recognize the threat or taunt or magical onus imposed by marks" coincides with "strategic thinking necessary to prioritize long-distance artillery over immediate threats" so it works out nicely. Smart enough to walk past stuff? Smart enough to realize why it's a bad idea. Too dumb to realize that not hitting the guy in front of you will hurt you? Probably want to hit the guy in front of you anyway because he's the most immediate threat.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2017 17:00

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

If there's MORE DRAGONMECH then I fail to see what choice we really have.

# ¿ Apr 16, 2017 22:24

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Hostile V posted:

Steam Warriors so we can see more useless/janky stuff.

It's definitely this.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2017 00:46

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Asimo posted:

I... envy your naivete here. Go check some of the right wing media threads in D&D and come to a quick understanding about how easily stuff like this can be read in horrible ways.

Or just read the Lovecraft story "Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn and His Family" wherein a dude self-immolates because he discovers his "Portuguese great-great-great-grandmother" was in fact A White Ape From The Dark Heart Of Africa. The source material this supplement draws from, directly or indirectly, has it right there.

# ¿ May 21, 2017 07:11

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

PurpleXVI posted:

Maybe just an option for people to upvote reviews in the Inklesspen archive, that'd probably be the easiest way to do a "recommended reads"-list.

I was even thinking a tag system like the lparchive has, for when you want [SCI-FI] [GROSS] [RULES DON'T WORK] to drive what you're going to hateread that day.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2017 21:13

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

~~Sneak~~ Trick Attacks let you get bonus damage with small weapons but you have to make a social skill check against a difficulty equal to (20 + the CR of the foe), so be prepared to make some extra die rolls whenever you make an attack, but it can add up to big damage... at higher levels (around 5th level or higher). But it slows down the game more than Sneak Attacks, as you make an extra roll against an entirely arbitrary DC you have to check with the GM about. You get Evasion eventually because rogues got that back in Pathfinder, and as you level up you get extra speed, inflict conditions with trick attacks, ignore being flat-footed, and get extra attacks with small weapons (on full attacks only, so forget that extra movement you just got, this is Starfinger).

Sneak Attack but you have to buy Skill Focus and dump a bunch of points into Cha to use it seems like a very bold Paizo style innovation. Also please tell me that some enemies are still immune to it.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2017 17:13

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Who among us, if he or she is being honest, did not spend the mid 90s attempting to make a Goku class for AD&D

# ¿ Oct 21, 2017 04:47

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Well, just bought all of All of Their Strengths on drivethrurpg's Halloween sale. Thanks thread!

# ¿ Oct 27, 2017 21:03

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Mors Rattus posted:

No, that's consistently how the Sabbat gets portrayed. They are both monstrous killers all the time, and secretly controlling about as much society as the Cam does, simultaneously.

The Sabbat were not well written.

Per one of Werewolf's setting books, NYC is also run by a sinister cabal of child trafficking rich people and their pet monsters and spirits. Also Central Park is a spiritual locus but people can just wander on through whenever.

Big cities not within a convenient drive of Stone Mountain, GA were also not well written.

# ¿ Nov 30, 2017 17:36

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Halloween Jack posted:

Challenge accepted.

Big Game Hunter (Assamite)
Vigilante Cop (Brujah)
Vanilla Ice (Brujah)
Guy Who Sells Pseudo-Egyptian Novelties (Setite)
Stuntman (Gangrel)
Another Big Game Hunter (Gangrel)
Lesbian Indiana Jones (Gangrel)
Antifa Supersoldier (Gangrel)
Pirate (Lasombra)
Spanish Anarchist (Lasombra)
Italian "Years of Lead" Marxist Terrorist (Lasombra)
Death Metal Shock Rocker (Nosferatu)
Luchador (Nosferatu)
Gay Rights Vigilante (Nosferatu)
Masked Pulp Vigilante (Nosferatu)
Dave Mustaine (Toreador)
Rob Liefeld (Toreador)
Aleister Crowley (Tremere)

Don't forget "legally distinct from Tom Cruise" from Tzimisce (though this could go in either list)

# ¿ Dec 4, 2017 06:53

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Kurieg posted:

Not sure how much detail I should go into for the different maneuvers, though. Diamond Mind and Setting Sun are kind of boring on the whole compared to SUNLIGHT ENDS IMMEDIATELY

Definitely talk about how many powers can be used to Kool Aid Man directly through walls barehanded in dungeons, because it's: A lot of them.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2018 20:28

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Given that gods and their incarnations interacting with mortals on the reg subjects mortals to Fatebinding and gods to having their purviews and pantheons redefined by whatever they're up to at that moment, it makes sense that the setting big-g Gods don't necessarily to respond to prayers that much without trying to keep that poo poo on the DL.

As such, it makes sense that the response rate for prayers to Odin et al isn't necessarily better than "praying to YHWH and having coincidences align adequately." So for the layperson's day to day life, there's not really a lot of difference between the Catholic Church saying "our continued temporal successes are due to the Lord Jesus Christ being with us, come around on Sundays to hear more" and a Pantheon-focused religion's thanking Aphrodite and Zeus for whatever cool thing's going on with them that week.

Added bonus: You can invoke Jesus Christ, pray to Saint Christopher, and offer up a tithe to the triune lord, and there's no chance of getting Fatebound into reenacting some Old Testament poo poo. If you want religion for organizational purposes without the baggage of getting wrapped up in weird magical crap, the ones without Scion-Godly backing are actually a better bet than anything else.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2018 23:37

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Inescapable Duck posted:

The basic lasgun joke is 'A lasgun does diddly, but 40 lasguns firing full auto is a shitload of diddly'. Naturally, it's a weapon that looks good on a macro scale and terrible on a personal scale.

Surprised there isn't a writeup on Heracles, though I imagine Prometheus will come later? Also, still amused that Aten is basically one of the Egyptian gods' rogues gallery.

Prometheus is an interesting one because the text, in the limited places he appears so far, treats him like a Titan with the freedoms of a God. Which is mostly fair.

Also Aten's whole Thing is probably my favorite part of 1e, so I'm glad 2e is keeping a lot of his whole deal. A fun tidbit to note from 1e was that Aten had no lesser Titans in its service (1e made a distinction between Greater Titans, which were basically planes of existence as gods like Terra or Muspelheim, and lesser Titans, like Mut or Prometheus), because Aten was the only God of the Light, having killed all the other lesser Titans of the concept because Aten was the only God for Aten.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2018 04:45

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Ballads of Eldoru is less a fantasy heartbreaker and more a fantasy heartstealer and I love it dearly already

# ¿ Apr 1, 2018 06:11

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Everyone getting Fatebound to the Flawless Debater over here

# ¿ Apr 4, 2018 02:01

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Nessus posted:

The Boons do not seem to be tightly optimized in this way. Indeed it seemed like most broad sorts of effects were explicitly made so you can get something like that from multiple sources, probably to avoid any bullshit along the lines of "well Loki is objectively inferior to even Violent H, juggalo trash sculptor and Scion of Hephasteus, because Violent H has Metamorphosis and Loki doesn't."

Part of what I like about Scion here is that it really seems to have landed in my own personal sweet spot of "flexible and narrative, but with a clearly established (though broad) theme." Some of this may be that I am conditioned to count dots and roll D10s, of course.

The other thing is, because of how marvels and Motifs work, distinctions between stuff like "you can't lie to me" and "I see the truth" make sense to have in the game (and indeed, if you have access to one and want access to the other, you can probably make a marvel of it). Kind of like portfolio bullet points for characters in Nobilis.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2018 21:19

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Joe Slowboat posted:

This all makes sense; I was just a bit miffed that Sun doesn't by default let me fire orbital death lasers from the eye of Ra, so I was looking for issues with the Sun boons.

I mean that'd probably either be a basic "make attacks with the Purview" marvel, or even build a DIY Relic (Eye of Ra) that gives you access to the Fire and Sun Purviews, and then you just buy the Fire "the attacks marvel but Imbue instead of Spend Legend" Boon.

Splash in something to give you access to the Stars Purview to get the Innate eyes-in-the-sky power, and you can even go with orbital death lasers.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2018 22:44

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Night10194 posted:

Really the more I read it closely for the review the more I'm convinced RT is a pile of bolted on, complicated subsystems that have very little actual player input or real content.

The one time I played it, I assumed that I only felt like that because I'd skimmed the rules for the parts that were directly relevant to my character and ignored the rest. Good to know it wasn't just that.

And I was playing the Navigator.

# ¿ Apr 14, 2018 04:19

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Night10194 posted:

My Navigator player was the first to eventually approach me and go 'Hey, so, it's been kinda fun but can we go back to Dark Heresy, I want to be a rad flamethrower nun again or a crazy wizard.'

My only Navigation roll went so badly that we all agreed to handwave it because otherwise the campaign was over within 20 minutes of the first session thanks to Warp shenanigans.

# ¿ Apr 14, 2018 04:26

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Mr. Maltose posted:

Yeah, this was not a new or probably unexpected thing. Paizo's aggressive commodification of it (And the fact this was the first edition change after we firmly entered the Age of the Internet) was the wrinkle that made it especially notable.

Also, something that I think gets lost in the historical perspective if you weren't there at the time, but a huge part of 4e's market share tanking was the "big leak" and policy consequences that came from it: A pre-press PDF (for anyone not in publishing, this is the file you send to your actual-physical-book-printer, with "marks and bleeds" and all the other fun printer necessary crap on the margins) of the 4e PHB1 surfaced online maybe a month or two before the game was supposed to come out, and it got around.
WotC's very sane and measured response, in light of this (and, to an extent, the fact that any 3e book was trivially easy to find online for the back half of THAT game's life cycle) was: We will not be selling any 4e PDFs, or indeed, any D&D PDFs, anymore, until TBD.

They reversed course on this at the end of the life cycle of 4e, around which time they started selling 2e and 3e PDFs online again while gearing up for returning D&D to How It Was Meant To Be Played. Meanwhile, Paizo had spent the intervening years either selling book PDFs direct for Pathfinder products, or riding high on drivethrurpg's best sellers lists virtually unopposed in the "is D&D" space.

# ¿ Apr 16, 2018 20:55

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Punting posted:

Batman

Also, The Flash. The best/worst test of a supers or supers-adjacent system is how they handle superspeed and I cannot wait to see how Adventure! handles it.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 01:04

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Deptfordx posted:

Very true. It tends to be either nerfed to near uselessness or game breakingly powerful.

What systems would you say handle it well?

In addition to what others have said, it looks like Storypath (new Scion, will be new Aeon games) might be good for it, since the way they handle scale means you can model a bunch of speedy bullshit without defaulting to "oh and they get 10x as many turns as other people."

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 18:23

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Freaking Crumbum posted:

i feel like the new adept schools in 3E are all very much more sanitized than the stuff in 1E/2E. even beyond "now adepts are only moderately difficult to include in a PC group, instead of outright impossible" the actual schools themselves seem much more venal or unremarkable - someone that likes guns too much, or corny movies too much, or instagram too much, or haute couture too much are all people we each already know in real life, and depending on your own inclinations, they're mostly just annoying to deal with. i get the idea that magick is powered by obsession and that those things are the kinds of stuff that people tend to obsess about now-a-days, but it just feels so banal.

boozehounds, body bags, and skinners feel like they're "earning" their hosed up power more than "eric, the guy that won't ever take an Uber for reasons"

Just because gun guy won't actually shoot you doesn't mean his walking down the street brandishing it to make a political point won't make you feel supremely uncomfortable (speaking from experience in the Texas capital of 'open carry assault rifles to make a point').
The functional movie guys aren't going to treat every romantic relationship like a romcom and every inconvenience as an opportunity to swear a Taken blood vendetta, but the less-functional guys are going to be borderline personality disorder to a degree that makes Crazy Ex Girlfriend seem quaint.

Basically, imagine if the people that are annoying to deal with in real life, have tangible evidence that being annoying like that will give them magic powers. Now they're using those magic powers. Which you don't have, because you aren't obsessed with things like they are, and are only learning magic's real when it's used against you or someone you love.

Keep in mind: There's hosed up compared to other insane fuckups, and there's hosed up compared to literally everyone else.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 03:48

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Freaking Crumbum posted:

as someone with emotional and anxiety disorders, i can absolutely empathize with the notion of "what if all the inappropriate feelings and dumb ideas my brain keeps feeding me 24/7 were actually correct and could legitimately allow me to do wizard poo poo". i'd definitely be at huge risk for never taking my meds again if doing so was actually the secret to really being a wizard.

i was looking at it more as a generational thing. "back in MY day we had to direct our unhealthy obsessions towards things that would literally kill us. none of this namby-pamby 'i can't let anyone see me naked' bull poo poo. i had to cut my own finger off to cast a spell, uphill both ways in the snow!"

It's a very 2010s change for the game that people's unhealthy obsessions are more of a risk to everyone else around them, than they necessarily may be to the obsessor, I think.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 05:43

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Strange Matter posted:

I've always found it a little disappointing that there's no end-game for Adepts the way there is for Avatars (Ascension), but actually there is-- score a Major Charge and do something crazy to reshape the world in your image. Or get extremely horrible, petty revenge on someone.

By the time an Adept has scratched up a major charge, I feel like there's no "or" between those statements

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 19:33

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

The only Aberrant books I own are the core and the Duke Rollo in-universe fiction booklet, because wow, I was an incredibly stupid teen

# ¿ Nov 10, 2018 01:12

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Halloween Jack posted:

I think I need to review Wild Talents: Progenitor. The theme and intended campaign model are about changing the course of history, and there's every expectation that you may be playing people with powers like "create an island nation from nothing" or "psychically assassinate anyone on Earth."

Also, one of the most setting-warping antagonists later in the timeline is an explicit "here's how you build something that ends the world on a very low point budget," which is neat.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2018 01:05

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Just Dan Again posted:

Crossbows have become one of my RPG litmus tests. If using a crossbow is a bad decision, the game probably has some other goofiness in its structure that'll be annoying to deal with.

WHFRP seems like it does pretty well with crossbows- they do a bunch of damage, most people can use them, and they've got good range, but you're probably not using it more than once before you wind up in a scrum. Using a crossbow as your primary armament probably isn't as good as being a gunman, true. But at least a crossbow can actually threaten a normal person enough that it's respectable.

I think it's also a situation where if your game wants to be high early-medieval fantasy it'll make crossbows lovely (because bows and elves and elven archers), but if it wants to be late-medieval/potentially even pseudo-Renaissance (7th Sea, WHFRP depending on the region, etc.) then you just leapfrog ahead to guns.

So the only games crossbows end up being GOOD in, by design, are those where everything's bad and they're mildly ahead of a mediocre lot, in more dirt-farmingly low fantasy settings.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2018 03:52

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

I love everything about Double Cross except the idea of paying XP to be able to still play your character, which just feels like a design choice that you could've picked a lot of better roads to go down before ending on.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2018 03:47

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 12:52

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Feinne posted:

Momentum Control: A new level 3, Quantum 4 power that lets you interact with the speed of objects. Momentum Rotation lets you change the direction of objects while leaving their speed an orientation intact. If you�ve got Mega-Wits you can use this to do things like dodge collisions. Momentum Swap lets you, well, swap the momentum of two objects. Probably. They left out the system because lol, so you have to try and divine it from the example they give or look for errata for the book that gave you errata for the original game. Momentum Transformation lets you change a target�s speed and acceleration. I feel like this power needs more techniques though it�s hard to say what they�d be.

This one was always my favorite conceptually, but it runs into the problems of both lacking systems completely as you said, and also, the classic situation where any time physics interacts with superpowers/any narrative thing written in a White Wolf game, the efficacy can be a spectrum anywhere from "basically telekinesis but worse" to "tiny god astride a planet of insects" depending on ST fiat and player creativity/persuasiveness.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2018 04:56

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > FATAL & Friends 2016-19: Bad Rules and Hidden Jewels

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