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Davincie posted:the show has been over for ages people they're making a new movie
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Jan 10, 2016 03:19
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Davincie posted:the show has been over for ages people the show is over...b ut the analysis never ends!!!
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Jan 10, 2016 03:19
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Davincie posted:the show has been over for ages people We have two Evangelion threads and that's been over for 20 years.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:20
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oh hey a new Madoka thread. youtube recs just got me to rewatch Sayaka vs. Elsa Maria and fuuuuuuck that scene is awesome. i refuse to watch rebellion because i got spoiled on it and gently caress everything about the plot of that movie. namaste.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:26
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You should watch rebellion.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:27
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Namtab posted:You should watch rebellion. It's good and a better ending than the TV series.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:31
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LORD OF BUTT posted:youtube recs just got me to rewatch Sayaka vs. Elsa Maria and fuuuuuuck that scene is awesome. Whatever that woodwind is, in the Decretum solo.... it's loving raw. also, please watch Rebellion and enjoy the part that calls back to the visual motifs during Elsa Maria's scene
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Jan 10, 2016 03:33
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Sakurazuka posted:It's good and a better ending than the TV series. Not a better end, a better platform for new developments
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Jan 10, 2016 03:34
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LORD OF BUTT posted:oh hey a new Madoka thread. The Elsa Maria fight is one of those scenes that so much better in the TV version because its such a huge gut shot to end an episode on. Also, you should still watch the movie because it is just a good loving movie. You can ignore the plot implications. AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 03:39
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Space Flower posted:the Nutcracker symbolism is probably my favorite though. Homulilly is a broken nutcracker, reflecting all of Homura's self-perceived failures, right? So when she transforms, crushing her soul gem between her teeth, that's a super powerful scene to me. also the nutcracker symbolism is much more palatable than a crock pot of postmodern writers. What I find most interesting in regards to the Homulilly imagery as reference to the Nutcracker is Homura's role. In the Nutcracker, we have the nutcracker, who protects the girl from the mice. The key part here being protection, as this is Homura's role as defined by her wish:  "I want to redo my meeting with Kaname-san! But this time, instead of her protecting me, I want to become strong enough to protect her!" Homulilly represents Homura's failure in this regard, as Homulilly's purpose was to crack nuts, but she lost the ability to do so. This then ties into how Homura believes she could not protect Madoka. Thus her transformation into Demon Homura is in part the affirmation of this role, as not only is Homura's wish granted once more, she is fulfilling her purpose once again. Breaking her Soul Gem shows that she now has the ability to protect Madoka like she wanted, or, at least, believes she does.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:50
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littleorv posted:Allow me to deconstruct this post for everyone. drat it Seafood now I'm listening to Slavoj Zizek lectures why would you do this to me.
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Jan 10, 2016 06:17
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You are saying that like it's not the most entertaining thing to watch aside from anime 
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Jan 10, 2016 06:42
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Pavlov posted:drat it Seafood now I'm listening to Slavoj Zizek lectures why would you do this to me.
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Jan 10, 2016 06:57
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It's like listening to Carl Marx recite personal anecdotes while eating a bag of marshmallows, but I can't stop.
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Jan 10, 2016 06:59
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Sakurazuka posted:We have two Evangelion threads and that's been over for 20 years. i am positive this same exchange happened in the last thread and now i feel like homura
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Jan 10, 2016 09:20
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spoiler: homura timetravels also since we're talking about zizek for some reason, he's a lacanian not a deconstructionist, i'm sure there are ways to do a lacan job on madoka. i don't know what they are, but i"d love to hear them.
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Jan 10, 2016 09:22
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The Colonel posted:the show is over...b ut the analysis never ends!!! anal ysis is ig ood actually I'd like to hear more from the people who especially like the movie and think it stands far above the show, since I see that come up a lot and to me the two seem contiguous, which is how I watched them I guess, so that might be why. so even if Rebellion does a certain amount of (very cool) violence to the original material it still feels like the original material to me, I guess? I dunno, that's why I'm asking Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 09:29
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Zas posted:actually I'd like to hear more from the people who especially like the movie and think it stands far above the show, since I see that come up a lot and to me the two seem contiguous, which is how I watched them I guess, so that might be why. so even if Rebellion does a certain amount of (very cool) violence to the original material it still feels like the original material to me, I guess? I dunno, that's why I'm asking Speaking as one of those people, (I've watched Rebellion around 5 times more than I've watched the prior two movies and the series), I feel the primary reason is that Rebellion has lent itself very well to the sort of analysis I've been writing. Rebellion feels like a much larger "thought-space" as it were than the series, with more complexity of themes along with more subtle touches arising from, say, the scene construction. In a sense, it feels like the series is kind of in a confined and closed space, says its thing and that's that. Rebellion, however, feels like it leaves more room for interpretation and is more thought-provoking to me. Perhaps that's part of the point, after all, Rebellion is designed to be more open-ended and leave room for continuation while the series technically wasn't. A lot of my early analysis (in IM, I wouldn't post it here) was rampant speculation on what was to come after Rebellion, and I only went back to analyzing Rebellion within its own context later. As well, it helps that Rebellion has better production values than the series and even the prior movies, and looks amazing. Also, it's focused on my favourite character in any artistic work, although she's my favourite pretty much because of Rebellion, so there it is now.
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Jan 10, 2016 09:54
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Lord Justice posted:Speaking as one of those people, (I've watched Rebellion around 5 times more than I've watched the prior two movies and the series), I feel the primary reason is that Rebellion has lent itself very well to the sort of analysis I've been writing. Rebellion feels like a much larger "thought-space" as it were than the series, with more complexity of themes along with more subtle touches arising from, say, the scene construction. In a sense, it feels like the series is kind of in a confined and closed space, says its thing and that's that. Rebellion, however, feels like it leaves more room for interpretation and is more thought-provoking to me. i like how this can be said even though the actual setting of rebellion is actually a really limited and contained place while the tv series is technically just the wide-open regular-rear end world
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Jan 10, 2016 10:10
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by the way madoka is a Good and Fun Show and you should watch it. stop caring about what others think and watch the cool and good-looking anim this has been a public service announcement from me, Someone Who Seriously Considers Goon Opinion Before Watching An Anime
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Jan 10, 2016 10:12
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Lord Justice posted:Speaking as one of those people, (I've watched Rebellion around 5 times more than I've watched the prior two movies and the series), I feel the primary reason is that Rebellion has lent itself very well to the sort of analysis I've been writing. Rebellion feels like a much larger "thought-space" as it were than the series, with more complexity of themes along with more subtle touches arising from, say, the scene construction. In a sense, it feels like the series is kind of in a confined and closed space, says its thing and that's that. Rebellion, however, feels like it leaves more room for interpretation and is more thought-provoking to me. Perhaps that's part of the point, after all, Rebellion is designed to be more open-ended and leave room for continuation while the series technically wasn't. A lot of my early analysis (in IM, I wouldn't post it here) was rampant speculation on what was to come after Rebellion, and I only went back to analyzing Rebellion within its own context later. alright, that makes sense, thanks. next time I watch, if I get a chance, I'm definitely gonna put myself in more of that mindset, and also remember to remember to take the movie more on it's own terms thinking again, about 'analysis' being a dirty word, I think you make a really good point that for some people (obviously not everyone) the gamut of a work's ability to get you thinking and the range of thoughts it provokes is a really important part of enjoying the work, in all art and entertainment, and how highly you value the work can depend a lot on the width of that gamut and how much thought or whatever it inspires. so I can totally see how rebellion has more of that going on. i watched rebellion as the third act in a melodrama, and it worked really well, but thinking of it more as like a reopening of something that had been closed is interesting. Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 10:12
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Zas posted:alright, that makes sense, thanks. next time I watch, if I get a chance, I'm definitely gonna put myself in more of that mindset, and also remember to remember to take the movie more on it's own terms Exactly, yes. This is the primary reason why Madoka is my favourite artistic work, and why I continue to think about and analyze it, even after almost 2 years since watching it initially. If a work can get you to really think about it, then it's probably going to place high on your personal list of favourites. As well, this is why I would include Rebellion as an absolutely necessary part of the larger Madoka whole, as the thoughts, questions, themes, and content it brings are really what has made Madoka an artistic masterpiece to me. I watched Rebellion about a month after watching the series, so my experience was a little different. To me, Rebellion represented both a destruction of the series (as it broke the original ending with Homura's betrayal), and a continuation of it (as it continued the screed against wish fulfillment by destroying Madoka's wish with Homura's betrayal). To me it seems a little strange to call it a third act, as it, as you mentioned, reopened something that was closed. The series did not necessarily need a followup, but Rebellion absolutely does. Let's hope what the Concept Movie proposes can do so, it's following a very tough act.
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Jan 10, 2016 11:08
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As promised, I have seen the first madoka movie. It's maybe the first time I recognized a composer for a soundtrack while watching the show. Yuki Kajiura, who maybe made my favorite orchestral ost of all time in xenosaga III...what an unmistakable impression she leaves okay it's super late, sleep now
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Jan 10, 2016 13:40
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To be honest, I think Madoka/Rebellion are simultaneously complex enough to warrant significant analysis, while also simple enough that they don't require too much thought to understand (I don't think I've read a single analysis that didn't immediately make sense, while I had to put more effort into just understanding some of the literary analysis I encountered in college, and this was only in low level courses since I wasn't a liberal arts major). Somewhat related to this, but I'm pretty concerned that a lot of the stuff we're concluding and discussing about will not actually make it into the canon movie series. Lord Justice's points about Homura's actions not really being wrong and Madoka's actions stemming from a sort of dogmatic faith in the magical girl system are not wrong when viewing the show/Rebellion, but I have a strong feeling that we're just supposed to view Homura as someone who loves Madoka and would rather her be happy even if it means disregarding her desires and that Madoka's actions will ultimately be portrayed as selfless and Good. Hopefully I end up being wrong about this, but Urobuchi's past works have been pretty straight-forward and not exactly high-brow (though still more so than most anime), so I'm not optimistic.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:32
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homura has been driven completely nutso from constantly reliving her friends dying over and over and then once she finally succeeds the person she was doing all that for turned into an existential fabric of the universe. her idea of love is possibly not really what most people would call a Good Thing. i mean Madoka explicitly Fixed Everything Forever And Everyone Is Happy and Homura was unhappy with this state of affairs because she cannot smooch an existential fabric of the universe. lips are too big and transdimensional or something yo like i dunno i never felt rebellion needed much analyzing personally? it was a pretty clear story about obsession and being unwilling to let things go even for the greater good, at least to me Gyra_Solune fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 21:15
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Even if you accept Madoka's wish was a significant net win (as I do) it's trivially obvious that it doesn't save everything and everyone. For a start, Sayaka still dies. If your only criteria is the greater good then the post-Rebellion witchworld is clearly better until such time as it inevitably blows up.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:27
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Madoka didn't fix everything all she did was stop girls turning into witches, that's it, the system is still in place and she left Homura to spend eternity alone/die to the shadow things eventually. I'm surprised she's not seriously loving pissed and completely unsurprised she turned (more) nuts.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:39
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Lestaki posted:Even if you accept Madoka's wish was a significant net win (as I do) it's trivially obvious that it doesn't save everything and everyone. For a start, Sayaka still dies. If your only criteria is the greater good then the post-Rebellion witchworld is clearly better until such time as it inevitably blows up. It's the main reason I think she was rightfully pissed off at Homura in the end of Rebellion. Homura accidentally ripped Sayaka out of valhalla when she tore off Madoka's consciousness, and when Sayaka called her out on doing a bad thing™, she tears away the memories that lead to her power and maturity.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:47
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And now she gets a second chance at life with her friends and with Kyouko, so it's swings and roundabouts. I value that life over an uncertain afterlife. Homura mind controlling a handful of people is obviously bad but Homura controlling and subordinating the Incubators before they can complete their plan to interfere with the Law of Cycles is obviously good. It's no longer a question of tweaking the incentive structure and hoping the Incubators play nice, which has to be good for the human race as a whole. Sayaka's personal anger is well-founded. Homura's actions are also perfectly understandable and are entirely selfish in their motivations. But if we're talking about the greater good, then a quasi-omnipotent superwitch with an intact human consciousness presents considerably greater potential upside for the whole system. Of course, the potential downsides are also ridiculous, but are they really worse than the worst case scenario of the Incubators seizing control of the Law of Cycles? My actual point here is that 'the greater good' is a lousy argument to begin with. We mainly care about all this only insofar as it influences the cast.
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Jan 10, 2016 22:02
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Gyra_Solune posted:it was a pretty clear story about obsession and being unwilling to let things go even for the greater good, at least to me Kind of like how people have problems letting go of this series heyoooo Real talk, Madoka is pretty good, not the first to do dark poo poo, but I can see why it would make a long lasting impression. Character designs are nice, I always liked Homura's design.
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Jan 11, 2016 00:50
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Compendium posted:Real talk, Madoka is pretty good, not the first to do dark poo poo, but I can see why it would make a long lasting impression. Character designs are nice, I always liked Homura's design. I think the music is like 80% of why people find it memorable. Yuki Kajiura's music all sounds the same, but it's still very good at setting the tone/emotion of scenes. That combined with the fact that the pacing/animation/story are all done very well (mostly in the sense that there are almost zero problems to speak of) makes it leave a bigger impression on viewers, even if there's nothing profound about the plot.
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Jan 11, 2016 04:07
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So since I hate talking to myself about stuff, and I'm honestly a better thinker when I'm talking to someone about what I'm thinking about, I thought it would be fun to drag Srice along and do a neophyte/seen it already of the madoka series, starting with the first movie. Needless to say it went a little long, but If you’re interested in what a newcomer to the series and a grizzled veteran has to say, feel free to read oooon~. My text is bolded, Srice is italicized. Okay so Puella Magi Madoka Magica, the series that launched a thousand tvtropes and catapulted the gosh darn D word into anime popular consciousness. It's already been five years since the original series aired, if you can believe it. It's obviously been on my radar for a while, but it's also one of those shows where you take a peek into the discussion and think maybe there's something else you can get to first. I'm watching the movie and my good buddy srice, who has seen the series and just recently rewatched the film, will hold my quivering hand as we journey into this magical realm. When did you first end up watching the series, srice? So way back when the show aired I caught the first episode via fansubs. Unfortunately, a lot of the people I knew back then who were super into it were a certain type of fan (I'll just straight up say it: People who seemed to have an unhealthy degree of obsession with stuff like Nanoha, and of course they used that gosh darn D word too) so since I wasn't wild about the first episode, I didn't watch anymore and thought nothing of it. Might have been for the best since from what I remember there was a huge delay with the last few episodes due to the earthquake that happened around that time. Anyways, I watched the entire series about 2 or 3 years ago, I wanna say? It was before the movies were out I can say that much. Another pro to waiting is that Shaft shows have a world of difference in their home video release. When I saw some comparisons I could tell that I had made the right move and by that time it was far enough removed from the elements that initially turned me away. So relatively fresh, and even moreso for the movie. Going into the movie itself, it's obvious that some aspects of the series would be spoiled for me, but maybe not as many as you’d think. Basically, I knew that the show had a severe reputation for being grim, and I knew that Madoka would make some sort of sacrifice at the very end. Starting out, I guess it might be helpful to just dive right in and compare the film to the series. As I said, I never watched the TV show, but on the whole I was extremely pleased with the movie experience. The first film covers the beginning to Sayaka's big transformation into a witch, or something on the way to becoming one. Almost all the characters ended up in very different places than where they began, and while ordinarily I'm a huge stickler about what I think is overrushed character development, here I'll say the movie made great use of its lengthy two hour run time. In fact, about the only time I felt like I was watching a condensed movie was near the beginning when the girls are talking about how they're the only ones 'who know about what's been going on' post Mami's death. I'm assuming the series had at least one or two monster of the week style witch/familiar encounters. As someone who's seen both, did anything really strike you about the adaptation? It's pretty much the tv series with visual changes, the script is unchanged as far as I can tell. It's a 12 episode series with two movies that are a little over two hours each so there's pretty much nothing lost. There's new music and they updated the visuals. I had to look up a few things because some stuff I noticed seemed so obvious that it would be crazy for me to have missed them, and I was right! Main thing being that musical hairpin Sayaka wears when she transforms, that was not in the tv show. Also the backgrounds were heavily updated and while I'll mention a few things later, for your consideration I will link one such comparison now:  Shaft always does a hell of a job updating the backgrounds on their blu-ray releases and the movies took it to a level beyond their blu-ray standards. Wow, the transition from TV to BD makes sense, but the movie almost launches it into a different realm tonally. The almost gothic architecture gave those scenes a sort of constricting yet spiritual feeling, especially with those benches set up like pews. I wonder if it's a case of trying to adhere more to the original vision or post release tinkering. In any case it's hard to argue that the finished product wasn't impressive. From beginning to end I was very pleased with the animation and direction in general. In terms of framing nothing felt very idiosyncratic, but as a whole every action sequence had great choreography and kinetics, the fight scenes themselves knew not to overstay their welcome, and thanks to the backgrounds and good pacing in general, even the most regular exposition scenes flew right by. In case it's not obvious by this point, in terms of the first movie, I'll say it: I liked it a lot! It's always pleasing when you can come into a work as worked over as Madoka and find your way into it. And speaking of worked over, of course, the dreaded word looms over this conversation  But luckily for us, I've only seen the first half of the series so I don't have to make any grand sweeping claims at all, haw haw! I'll save that for when I've actually seen entire the thing. So for now let's stick to the horrifyingly banal details like the plot. Part of me does wish I could have experienced something like Mami's death completely blind to the subtext of the series. I'm deeply curious about how that would have changed my viewing experience of it. It's obviously meant to be the first big oh poo poo moment of the show, the one meant to instruct the viewer that the show isn't exactly what it's been presenting itself as thus far, that some expectations might have been...averted?! But speaking personally I'd argue that happens even farther back, with Kyubey's bloody introduction, which is even more notable because, despite the great violence the show sometimes exhibits, it has so far refused to resort to a display of almost any gore. When you were first getting into it, what was your impression of Mami's death? I could see it coming a mile away, especially when they entered the first labyrinth, and ESPECIALLY when she started crying out of happiness, but again: I was already aware of the subtext. I knew about Mami's death when I watched the show since it's definitely what everyone talked about at the time. Many people say that it's when the show became not your typical magical girl show but A) I'm no expert but I feel like many people saying that weren't experts either! and B) The art and musical direction beforehand certainly felt like it was carrying some grim implications. When I first saw the tv series I knew folks who told me to watch up to episode 3 before judging the show, and they found Mami's death to be heartbreaking. Like you said though, it's telegraphed so far in advance. I kinda laughed in the tv series because of what I had heard (plus the fact that it happens almost immediately after she's happy about making a friend), but in the movies it felt more effective to me. Not sure if it's just that it goes down better on a second viewing or what. But I do appreciate the point they made with her character. She's not the equiavlent of Gurren Lagann's Kamina. Rather, she's more akin to Gai from Nadesico; a pilot who gets killed off in episode 3 (which if I haven't mentioned, is the episode where Mami dies) and his death not only sticks with the protagonist, but it has similar goals; being a mecha pilot isn't fun and games 24/7, and Gai doesn't even get to die the way he wants. I'm not sure if that was an influence but they were certainly going for similar ideas with their respective genres. Also to get back to chatting about visuals as I like them much more than I do Urobuchi's writing; This is the first time they really communicate what can go on with the outlandish, picture book cutout look of the Witches. Immediately after Mami talks about Madoka wishing for a cake, they run into a cake-themed Witch. When Madoka is grieving over Mami's fate, she runs into a Witch that projects images of Mami's death around her. Those obvious examples are a great starting off point to taking a closer look at those dreamlike backgrounds. Great point on the witches, and another aspect that I came in completely blind on. When the old timey cartoon sound effects started up and the pop up book visuals began appearing, it was an incredible moment, and the cute but stuttering monsters with barbed wire and scissors were another example of the series showing its hand before Mami's death. Like you mentioned about the labyrinths reacting to its inhabitants, I can't have been the only one getting even more worried when the environment around Mami and Madoka became brighter, almost luminescent. When you're that far in the darkness, a beautiful light isn't comforting, it's threatening, almost like an anglerfish. Which seems appropriate considering the first form the witch took. Its form was bait, the scene going into it emotional bait, everything designed to lure you into a false sense of security. Unless you're a pro troper like me and can see death flags a mile away, heh >B)  I was wondering this at the start, whether witches have any sort of personality or can influence the nature of their labyrinths. They mostly seem divorced from their surroundings. If anything, the people in the labyrinth and the area it's created around seem to have more to do with how it looks than anything the witch brings to the table. But I expect I'll find an answer to that in the other movie. Finally, before we actually move on from Mami, I brought up violence and gore a bit, but I wanted to take a moment to applaud this work for really getting the difference between violence, gore, style, their power to work with and influence each other to either enforce or subvert the tone, and how things can go so horribly, horribly wrong when a production doesn't respect these things. Madoka can be an extremely violent work, but it's almost never gory, because it understands that it doesn't operate on that level. The horrors in madoka are existential horrors, hell, the bodies are zombie bodies. If it caved in and put out a bloodbath just to reinforce the grim tone of the series it would have come off as overwrought and pretty laughable. The closest example I can think of something doing this the wrong way is the first episode of Symphogears, which didn't seem to respect the violence it inflicted at all, and even worse, was grossly inconsistent in how much gore it wanted to shock you with. I’m told the show tones that down later and good for it, but back to Madoka, do you think the movie handled its grim tone pretty well, or were some things a little overworked for your blood? I think the visuals do a fine job at communicating the grim tone, with just one exception and it's a primarily dialogue-driven scene. When Kyubey makes Sayaka feel the pain she would have felt from her earlier fight if she were still human, it comes across as a bit weird since you don't see any indication of any injuries on her body. I suppose you can wave it away a few different ways (Easy way out: Even though she heals herself perhaps that doesn't erase the pain?) but considering the writer if he wanted to wave it away he drat sure would have let you know about it. Otherwise I have no qualms with how its violence is handled. In the first movie the most blood you see is, like you mentioned, Kyubey's introduction. And his "death" is also violent in a way which unlike Mami's death is shown front and center on screen. Incidentally what I like about that scene is yet another piece of visual storytelling: The next Kyubey that pops out doesn't explain why he's eating the prior's dead remains, but it just serves to reinforce how robotic he is. It's dead, no sense in being wasteful.  And with that I am gonna segue to some character chat: I like how Kyubey's role is handled. He strictly obeys his own rules and will not violate them. He's saying what he can to try to make Madoka give that whole magical girl shindig a shot but he will never lie. He just doesn't tell them everything unless asked. Hardly the first character of that sort of course but it's a trait I find enjoyable. Between that and the lack of any human emotion he's practically a robot. Ah, good segue, because that's exactly what I wanted to talk about next! (Good segues are segues into what I want to talk about, heh heh) First I want to give a quick shout out to Kyubey's VA. Cassandra Lee imbues the character with a sense of innocence, frustrations, callousness, and willful obtuseness. And it's particularly telling when Homura explains that Kyubey doesn't think what it's doing is wrong, because it doesn't "understand human values at all”. Like you say, that can sound like a robot, an alien, but it can even describe a child Anyone that's seen Bebop has always known that there is nothing more pure and cruel than a child, and that definitely feels applicable here. When Kyubey is eating up his remains, the sounds made are terrifyingly cute. As a presence, it's terrifying not because it's strictly evil, but because you can't comprehend its values, and so you can’t really predict what it will do. This is in addition to the obvious juxtaposition between its cute features and odious intent. It's a great character in any case, which is why I was personally frustrated by its apparent turn into strict antagonist by the end of the first movie. I had rather hoped that it was just an agent of some oppressive system, because as architect or mastermind he's much less interesting. In reference to the scene you mentioned with the soul gem, it's very possible I missed the implication, but I had thought Kyubey was just demonstrating what the pain would theoretically feel like, by pressing on the gem, rather than using a power to temporarily let Sayaka feel pain. Speaking of, really, poor Sayaka. That was another development I was worried would happen, and was sad to see come true. Even without the zombie body anxiety, she was setting herself up for terrible resentment by using her one wish to heal someone she loved, when she wasn't prepared for it to be unrequited. Doing something like that for someone, and them potentially not being able to return your feelings, that would try the heart of a goddamn saint, much less a poor middle schooler  And speaking of choices, we’ll dig into the themes of religion, fairness, and utility a little bit more on the next movie since this is already going a little long, but I think what's always useful in works like this is asking yourself what sort of morality the universe ascribes to. It's obviously not idealist, since Madoka herself, in trying to help, ultimately sets in motion the events that lead into the final act and Sayaka's transformation, even when she was trying to heed her mother's advice by 'doing the right thing by doing the wrong thing'. If anything, balance seems to be the divine order of the day, as made explicit by the characters more than once. For something good to happen, something bad must happen. So far it's been strictly balanced, but I'm guessing the second half will deal with whether or not there is a way to create a truly positive event with no negative repurcussions, or indeed what that would even mean.  Slight tangent, but even though her advice led to a bad end, I really do appreciate Madoka's mom quite a bit, she's a cool lady that pops in quick, does some super cool stuff, and gets the heck out of the way. I'm sure more hay than I can bale has been made of her being the breadwinner and the feminist motifs in general, but I appreciated her quite a bit. Especially the chat about trying and failing to do the right thing. I was reminded of a time I was slowly being separated from a friend, and no matter what I did everything seemed to just push us further and further away. Friendship is difficult like that. Being friends mean giving someone a knife and turning around. They're a great source of support but they're also the people that can hurt us the most. I'm reminded of the evangelion quote I'll paraphrase horribly: people are like porcupines, they hurt each other just by being close. Right now Sayaka is in a really bad place, and it’s left for us to wonder whether or not Madoka will be able to help her friend. Maybe this is going against the obvious tone of the work but for now I’ll say I’m cautiously optimistic. On the subject of morality in the show, a perspective not talked about was Kyoko's. Her character is all about showing how a wish can bite you in the rear end and her despair over that fallout basically turned her into a wild animal. Something very easy to picture what with her fang tooth, her territorial attitude, and how she's always eating. All of that imagery associated with her character feels designed to invoke something along those lines.  One aspect that I think hurts the characters a little bit in the long run is how there's scant little time where they get to have even an illusion of a normal life, they're always busy with the plot. But that's why I really appreciate that scene you mentioned with Madoka's mom. It's a down to earth conversation that doesn't involve souls or witches or what have you. She's a cool mom and Madoka's friends are right to be jealous of her, having such a cool mom like that. It's a bit tough to talk about some of the other characters without the second film. At this point Madoka is practically what terrible people thought Shinji was like, before Evangelion became a less contentious topic and could be freely discussed in a reasonable manner again. And for most of the film Homura's motivations are a mystery, all you know is that she doesn't want Madoka to be a magical girl and at the very end you learn that she comes from a different timeline. All stuff that will become relevant at a later point. A lot of things in general will be easier to address after seeing the second film but I will say that I liked Homura's character better this second time around, knowing what I do about her. And while I'm sure there are a bunch of topics I missed, I think that's everything I wanted to get out for the first movie specifically. That's an interesting comparison to Shinji. That may have felt exacerbated over the original anime's more than twelve week run. In the movie her hesitation to become a magical girl felt pretty on point to me, from beginning to end. Especially when Sayaka starts to turn, that's not exactly a thrilling endorsement of the lifestyle. And even then Homura has to stop her from forging a contract multiple times! As for the other characters, as you said, their turn hasn't exactly come up yet, and we'll get to them later.  My only lingering thoughts are that I thought it was odd Kyoko was so willing to resort immediately to deadly force against Sayaka, and that in retrospect Mami's desire to turn Madoka and Sayaka into magical girls seems odd: she's just creating more competition for her "food" right? Running thought right now is that perhaps she just wanted Madoka's help, since she's apparently so powerful. But we shall see. drat I wanted to also talk about my favorite pairings oh no we’re out of tiiiime!! Thanks for chatting srice, let’s do it again sometime!!!
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Jan 11, 2016 04:23
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TOO LONG DIDNT READ XDDDDDDDDDD
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Jan 11, 2016 04:25
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Tarranon posted:TOO LONG DIDNT READ XDDDDDDDDDD i read it
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Jan 11, 2016 04:40
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thank you, friend cake attack
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Jan 11, 2016 05:20
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Cake Attack posted:i read it
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Jan 11, 2016 05:20
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I'll probably read it some day, but I need to find some empty space in my busy schedule first.
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Jan 11, 2016 05:25
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That's definitely a lot of words.
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Jan 11, 2016 05:28
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Sakurazuka posted:That's definitely a lot of words. If it helps, u should consider it more of an "article" than a forum post, as i tried to format it as such and it's much more in line with that medium
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Jan 11, 2016 05:30
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Broken down and read it, it's good. Disappointed that typing "Madoka is not a deconstruction" into google didn't go to a technical definition of deconstruction. Maybe I'll have to brush off my 5 year dead lit theory knowledge.
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Jan 11, 2016 05:34
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