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it is possible to act in solidarity with groups in other nations - south africa is one example of this. the point is, if you allow yourself to be sidetracked by "other guys bad" you're going to end up either just wasting time or agreeing with imperial aggression so condemning the bourgeoisie is fine. condemning the chinese bourgeoisie as a matter of principle is also fine. spending time and energy getting worked up about what the chinese are up to in xinjiang while one's own government is abetting similar atrocities elsewhere is pointless. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 14, 2021 14:14
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It's not just pointless it's actively assisting the propaganda aims of the US State department.
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May 14, 2021 14:19
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if you're from any NATO-allied country and are extremely concerned about stuff going on in non-NATO-allied countries you have better things to do, basically (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 14, 2021 14:23
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It's well and good to believe in internationalism but the actual successful internationalists all started with establishing a worker's state at home first (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 14, 2021 14:30
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Jordan Proletarian: you better get your own house sorted out before you go tryin to start workers' revolutions somewhere else, bucko
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May 14, 2021 14:31
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some plague rats posted:I feel like I'm being trolled because I read through that excerpt three times and it's absolute gibberish most people conceive of capital as a thing, rather than a social relation between people mediated by things. like at the end of capital marx talks about how means of production can only function as capital if there is a labor force deprived of the commons, so it's not like a hammer itself has the property "is a means of production in the M-C-M circuit" or something like that, it's that the hammer functions in this circuit only within a certain social context. i think that's what it's getting at when it talks of replacing a "thing"-oriented view with a "social relations"-oriented view or "process"-view. idk tho Larry Parrish posted:People confuse material dialectics for philosophy since Marx beat up Hegel and stole some ideas from him. there's a lot more continuity between marx and hegel than most marxists think, imo. and people like tom rockmore have shown pretty convincingly how influential german idealism (especially fichte) and its materialists opponents like feuerbach were on marx, even in his later works like the grundrisse or capital vol 1. someone else who has written in plainspoken english, unlike the above writing, on marx's philosophical views is allen wood. his book Karl Marx is solid, and focuses on the philosophical parts of marx's thought. wood also wrote a good book on hegel's practical philosophy (like philosophy of right, the poo poo marx was critiquing) too, if you're ever looking for someone to translate hegelese into english for you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 14, 2021 14:40
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May 14, 2021 15:22
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Larry Parrish posted:It's well and good to believe in internationalism but the actual successful internationalists all started with establishing a worker's state at home first it's tricky because when you do you tend to get invaded by all those other non worker's state countries or the CIA just kills your leaders or whatever. just need to keep the others busy with their own poo poo
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May 14, 2021 15:26
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e-dt posted:ive been reading Bertell Ollman's book Dance of the Dialectic, it is very interesting, and has definitely helped me think about the world in a more consistent and correct way. i recommend it, to everyone. some plague rats posted:I feel like I'm being trolled because I read through that excerpt three times and it's absolute gibberish It's just a way of saying that when you look at a "thing" you're always failing to understand the thing because you can't really separate or abstract it out from the larger processes of which it is a part. Dialectics looks at particular thing ⤍ universal ⤍ return to particular thing with new understanding of why that particular thing appears the way it does. The 3-part movement of thesis ⤍ antithesis ⤍ synthesis is a lovely translation (as Ollman points out at one point, I think) but that movement can be rewritten in a number of ways: Surface appearance ⤍ hidden essence ⤍ truth behind the surface appearance Particular ⤍ universal ⤍ new understanding of the particular Thing ⤍ contradiction* ⤍ new understanding of the thing Thing ⤍ negation ⤍ negation of the negation (i.e., return to the initial thing) * The contradiction, even the "internal" contradiction, is a result of a thing existing within a larger structure, process or set of relations etc. In Capital, the move is to look at the particular thing, the commodity, and say, "Boy howdie this sure is a weird thing that seems to appear to be this, but actually..." and then we move from there to the commodity's relations with a bunch of other stuff (i.e., the universal, or "capitalism") which gives us a new understanding of the particular thing (i.e., the commodity as relations between people, not things). This is why David Harvey, in his lectures, compares Marx's style or structure in volume 1 to the peeling back of an onion almost starting at the centre. It's also why Harvey tells you to pay attention to all the times Marx uses words like "seems" and "appears as," because those are never accidental. The dialectic is about figuring out why those things "seem" or "appear" to be one thing, when actually there's all this other stuff going on when you look at the bigger picture. I like Ollman's example/explanation of the myth of Cacus that Marx uses, after Martin Luther. Guy steals goats and makes them walk backwards into a cave. If you come and just look at the footprints in isolation, you completely misunderstand what's happening and think the cave is the source of the goats. Likewise, capitalists (or usurers, for Luther) think they are the"source" of value, when it's actually the opposite: they're the ones sucking it all up, like loving vampires. Anyway, the particular/universal/return to the particular movement idea can be applied to the current discussion: V. Illych L. posted:if you're from any NATO-allied country and are extremely concerned about stuff going on in non-NATO-allied countries you have better things to do, basically Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's not just pointless it's actively assisting the propaganda aims of the US State department.
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May 14, 2021 15:30
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You know what we mean when we're talking about being preoccupied with foreign affairs. It's not hard to see how the "leftist" obsession with Xinjiang is anti-dialectical because it keeps coming up over and over again by repeating imperialist propaganda.
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May 14, 2021 15:46
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DirtyRobot posted:Saying, "Oh Xinjiang that's not my country I don't think about that..." is anti-dialectical and serving the interests of capital. it's fine to be concerned about the universal intellectually, but there's also the other part where you want to change things you really can't have much of a power relation to 'over there' except through the medium of capitalist state power while capitalist state power controls your society. if you think operating within its confines will result in anything good you are an idiot
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May 14, 2021 15:47
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Like, the main propagandistic utility of repeating the allegations against China is that it serves a broader narrative of colonialist antagonism. Xinjiang isn't "just" Xinjiang, it's (allegedly) a model for the world that China will force upon everyone in the absence of American hyperpower.
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May 14, 2021 15:49
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Most people don't think about objects in terms of their relations either. A dialectical thinker looks at a commodity and is aware of all the interactions & labor that brought it before them, but for most people those relations are concealed behind an abstraction like "the market." yah I heard someone describe the design of apple products as intended to give an appearance of a single unified product plucked from heaven and refined by a handful of craftspeople instead of being the product of a planet-spanning chain of logistics exploiting literally millions of people
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May 14, 2021 16:23
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the reason people want to talk about china now and over the past few years is because there are major world events happening there, just like right now people want to discuss the situation in israel/palestine. the solution though isnt to dismiss those things as unimportant. you have to have a program that speaks to what they care about and moves them to act. its important to be truthful to people about the situation and why its bad, while also making it clear that the US involving itself would only make things worse, as the US government doesnt care about the people of xinjiang and actually has been complicit in whats happening to them and other minorities in china and around the world as well. you have to make the case that the best way to help the people in xinjiang for example, is to organize where youre at and oppose the US ruling class which works in collaboration with the ruling class of other capitalist states to oppress their people. have to help break the illusion that us state intervention would in anyway help or aid the people of anywhere because it wont. the frame of reference for what your position should be on any issue should be informed first and foremost imo by the question of "how can i talk to my coworkers or neighbor about this issue in a way that will lead them to drawing a socialist conclusion or elevate their class consciousness?" if youre thinking about any issue without trying to find the answer to that question and then actually put the answer into effect then its a waste of time.
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May 14, 2021 16:54
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"it doesn't matter from where we're standing, we should mind our own business" can be a useful way of skipping what you've judged will be an unproductive discussion or shutting up someone who'd be even more reactionary if engaged but it's not really a winning proposition in the long term. imagine someone trying to say that to you about israel, for instance (this is harder if you're in the states since israel is so much more your "fault" in that case but it's not like discussing the i/p issue should be off limits otherwise)
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May 14, 2021 17:29
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Ferrinus posted:"it doesn't matter from where we're standing, we should mind our own business" can be a useful way of skipping what you've judged will be an unproductive discussion or shutting up someone who'd be even more reactionary if engaged but it's not really a winning proposition in the long term. imagine someone trying to say that to you about israel, for instance (this is harder if you're in the states since israel is so much more your "fault" in that case but it's not like discussing the i/p issue should be off limits otherwise) All first world countries collaborate with Israeli colonialism.
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May 14, 2021 17:32
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personally i think "don't think about bad stuff in other countries" is cowardice, you can and should. what you shouldn't do is believe outright bullshit propaganda about them, which is what you see in western sources re china
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May 14, 2021 17:37
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Ferrinus posted:"it doesn't matter from where we're standing, we should mind our own business" can be a useful way of skipping what you've judged will be an unproductive discussion or shutting up someone who'd be even more reactionary if engaged but it's not really a winning proposition in the long term. imagine someone trying to say that to you about israel, for instance (this is harder if you're in the states since israel is so much more your "fault" in that case but it's not like discussing the i/p issue should be off limits otherwise) However in a reversal Israel is basically a US client state, and as an American in America there is several ways I could potentially do real material harm to Israel and it's genocidal regime. Hell, I could theoretically physically do violence to Israeli lobbyists and politicians that work with them. What the gently caress could I do about China, if I wanted to do anything about them? Besides be a tedious dipshit that is. Larry Parrish fucked around with this message at 17:41 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 17:39
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i think china is good
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May 14, 2021 17:40
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It's easy to have a political line on Israel/Palestine because there's a clear government policy that can be targeted which supports Israeli colonialism, like how the US unconditionally forks over billions in military and economic aid every year. What is the political line going to be on the US's relationship to China? That there should be sanctions?
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May 14, 2021 17:44
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's easy to have a political line on Israel/Palestine because there's a clear government policy that can be targeted which supports Israeli colonialism, like how the US unconditionally forks over billions in military and economic aid every year. What is the political line going to be on the US's relationship to China? That there should be sanctions? fund al qaeda in east turkestan
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May 14, 2021 17:45
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's easy to have a political line on Israel/Palestine because there's a clear government policy that can be targeted which supports Israeli colonialism, like how the US unconditionally forks over billions in military and economic aid every year. What is the political line going to be on the US's relationship to China? That there should be sanctions? the dipshits who want Something To Be Done are either crazy and want to start an actual economic conflict or are insane right wingers who want communism crushed but couch it in polite terms like 'ending human rights abuses'. im sure somewhere in that dynamic there is room for the dumbasses but maybe I'm completely wrong and there is something we can do besides masturbate about how I only support the Real communists like DSA
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May 14, 2021 17:49
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mila kunis posted:fund al qaeda in east turkestan lol Really if we're talking about exposing foreign bourgeoisie the more appropriate example is Russia. Like, you could go on and on about how corrupt and exploitative Russian oligarchs are but that also supports an environment which encourages the United States placing sanctions on the Russian bourgeoisie with the premise that this will somehow help liberate the common Russian or make them more liberal - or that it will somehow pre-empt alleged Russian interference in American politics. It's textbook imperialist intrigue. The Russian oligarchy isn't any more corrupt or exploitative than the American one. They're no more criminal.
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May 14, 2021 17:49
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:All first world countries collaborate with Israeli colonialism. Larry Parrish posted:However in a reversal Israel is basically a US client state, and as an American in America there is several ways I could potentially do real material harm to Israel and it's genocidal regime. Hell, I could theoretically physically do violence to Israeli lobbyists and politicians that work with them. What the gently caress could I do about China, if I wanted to do anything about them? Besides be a tedious dipshit that is. yeah lol this is why in the middle of writing that post i was about to go "whereas if you're a citizen of..." and then realized there was no such example and just went with "otherwise" instead. israel is extremely and almost uniquely first worlders' business. but for instance i'm not going to push back very hard against a criticism of the british bourgeoisie's support for israel
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May 14, 2021 17:52
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KidDynamite posted:am I a dialectic in realizing that I would not fight in the revolution because most outcomes lead to situations where I am dead and when I think of being dead I get a pain in my chest because I have attachment to the mortal for the and my wife. would have been good for the meat grinder before I met my wife. now I work to accrue capital because I want her to have a nice life with me and if I possibly die. brining a kid into this plain of existence is a tall ask, but that would def have me hoarding capital. Just get your wife to fight the revolution for you, dumbass
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May 14, 2021 18:09
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I got something to expose to the bourgeoisie RIGHT HERE [grabs crotch]
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May 14, 2021 18:12
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*looks at it* petite indeed
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May 14, 2021 18:14
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May 14, 2021 18:14
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ArfJason posted:*looks at it* petite indeed
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May 14, 2021 18:18
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Ferrinus posted:yeah lol this is why in the middle of writing that post i was about to go "whereas if you're a citizen of..." and then realized there was no such example and just went with "otherwise" instead. israel is extremely and almost uniquely first worlders' business. but for instance i'm not going to push back very hard against a criticism of the british bourgeoisie's support for israel to take a different tack, someone could be like "ah but the usa funds the tyrannical chinese regime through trade deals and capital investment, so what the chinese do is extremely our business and we need to pressure our government to boycott and sanction the PRC immediately"
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May 14, 2021 18:20
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Ferrinus posted:to take a different tack, someone could be like "ah but the usa funds the tyrannical chinese regime through trade deals and capital investment, so what the chinese do is extremely our business and we need to pressure our government to boycott and sanction the PRC immediately" i know you know this but the obvious response is that "yeah we can do that when we also do BDS; funny how one is constantly being pushed by the media and the other is anathema"
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May 14, 2021 18:31
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ArfJason posted:*looks at it* petite indeed
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May 14, 2021 18:32
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StashAugustine posted:i know you know this but the obvious response is that "yeah we can do that when we also do BDS; funny how one is constantly being pushed by the media and the other is anathema" definitely, but now you're in the Conversation About China, which is sometimes tactically useful to delay but ultimately something to be reckoned with
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May 14, 2021 18:35
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May 14, 2021 19:32
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ArfJason posted:*looks at it* petite indeed i call it the petite bourgeois-d
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May 14, 2021 19:36
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:i think china is good (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 14, 2021 20:02
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what if we made Communism on the Blockchain, but it was just Communism with random base64 strings attached to everything (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 14, 2021 20:52
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proof of work? sounds communist
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May 14, 2021 20:55
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May 14, 2021 21:34
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Brain Candy posted:it's fine to be concerned about the universal intellectually, but there's also the other part where you want to change things Just to be clear, my claim is that if you're in the US, you fight US propaganda. I'm just saying that in order to do so, you have to have some sense of what's actually going on beyond your immediate sphere. Like you need to be able to say, "No, sorry, gently caress off, your framing is wrong because X, Y Z and..." and defend really existing socialisms, not pull a Chomsky and critique US imperialism but then at the same time oops, you're repeating state department talking points about "communist thugs" and "authoritarianism" every chance you get.
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May 14, 2021 21:44
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