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i read part of edward bellamy's Looking Backward: 2000-1887 and it was kinda interesting, pretty naive though i think i read through the here's how the socialist society of the future happened and let us futuresplain to your gilded age rear end how it came to be part and after that it seemed like it was becoming a victorian romance novel which seemed boring
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Jan 28, 2016 03:35
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The Saurus posted:I don''t give a gently caress about luxury goods, but if I have to give up pizza as a precondition of socialism then I'd rather live in a neoliberal paradise. The argument being made is that pizza will be made with better ingredients post-revolution, not that pizza is a bourgeois luxury that will be smashed along with all vestiges of the Old World. Basically what y'all think would happen is this:  Except the Buddai is a pizza. team overhead smash posted:Also way too early to worry about Communism. Socialist revolution first to create the preconditions necessary for communism. Then the question answers itself depending on the type. to keep thigns simple let's say market socialism, so the answer is you get them from wherever you get them from at the moment. Nice and simple. Groceries and farms are already the most common forms of Cooperatives, so it's pretty silly how many people can't conceive of a socialist supply chain for a 3-cheese Supreme. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 04:52
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Yudo posted:Wait wait, the proud revolutionaries in this thread would endorse Leninism over Luxemburgism? I don't mean this as a criticism, I am genuinely curious. marxism-leninism has been proven a viable theory for lasting, successful revolution? leftcom and anarchist "revolutions" have been smashed swiftly and brutally by the forces of reaction. Jewel Repetition posted:If you want to argue against White Nationalism you should at least have read Mein Kampf. I mean jeez. lol so much for taking you on good faith
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Jan 28, 2016 04:58
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Do animals have the right of ownership over their milk and cheese and eggs?
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Jan 28, 2016 04:59
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The Saurus posted:Do animals have the right of ownership over their milk and cheese and eggs? Anything that can't understand this comic doesn't deserve rights imo. 
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Jan 28, 2016 05:20
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Communism.
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Jan 28, 2016 06:05
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Koos Goop posted:Communism. *nods*
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Jan 28, 2016 06:06
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Homework Explainer posted:lol so much for taking you on good faith I'm being intellectually honest. You saying someone needs to read Marx before they can criticize communism is exactly the same as a white nationalist saying someone needs to read Mein Kampf before casting any stones. Is that comparison unfair somehow?
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Jan 28, 2016 09:47
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Homework Explainer posted:marxism-leninism has been proven a viable theory for lasting, successful revolution? Oh...well, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Luxemburgism is at least somewhat palatable to skeptics, if we are just spit-balling.
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Jan 28, 2016 09:54
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Groceries and farms are already the most common forms of Cooperatives, so it's pretty silly how many people can't conceive of a socialist supply chain for a 3-cheese Supreme. Nah, it's totally easily to conceive of one, like I literally did it in the post you're responding to. The only thing is that there are like a dozen variations of socialism so that's not the one true version of socialism or anything and someone else could come along and give a different answer that was also totally legitimate.
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Jan 28, 2016 10:38
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Jewel Repetition posted:I'm being intellectually honest. You saying someone needs to read Marx before they can criticize communism is exactly the same as a white nationalist saying someone needs to read Mein Kampf before casting any stones. Is that comparison unfair somehow? Karl Marx did nothing wrong.
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Jan 28, 2016 11:09
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Jewel Repetition posted:I'm being intellectually honest. You saying someone needs to read Marx before they can criticize communism is exactly the same as a white nationalist saying someone needs to read Mein Kampf before casting any stones. Is that comparison unfair somehow? Yes, it's stupid. You can tell Hitler is bad because he killed millions of people. You can white supremacists are bad because their argument is one of racial purity and supremacy. Marx was a cool dude with a bear who wrote books.You can see socialists are good people because their arguments are in favour of equality and egalitarianism. With the former they're loving Nazi shits so their argument doesn't matter because to a reasonable person their beliefs cannot possible be justified on moral grounds. Like even if they had a mathematical formula which objectively and objectively proved slaughtering the Jews or kicking out all non-whites would improve the economy, it wouldn't loving matter because it isn't acceptable no matter what. With the latter the goal (egalitarianism, making sure everyone has enough to lead good happy lives, etc) and so we don't reject it out of hand. You actually have to perform some critical analysis to see if it's viable, what it would actually achieve, how that stacks up against the status quo and other alternatives etc, in which case you need to have a clue what you're talking about. TL:DR; Yes it helps to actually have an idea of what you're talking about and strangely we don't treat everyone in history who had an idea like Hitler they're Hitler.
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Jan 28, 2016 11:28
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It should be noted that in both the case of the English Civil War and the French Revolution, the execution of the king inevitably lead to untold horror and ruthless tyranny. Monarchy has its problems but Democracy is a naive fantasy.
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Jan 28, 2016 12:22
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Homework Explainer posted:leftcom and anarchist "revolutions" have been smashed swiftly and brutally by the forces of reaction. brutal self-own
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Jan 28, 2016 13:09
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Jewel Repetition posted:I'm being intellectually honest. You saying someone needs to read Marx before they can criticize communism is exactly the same as a white nationalist saying someone needs to read Mein Kampf before casting any stones. Is that comparison unfair somehow? Actually, it's completely fair in that both are entirely correct. But the best way to argue with white nationalists is not to, because their agenda is odious and they don't deserve a hearing. By actually discussing this with communists, though, you have decided that communist ideas deserve a hearing. In which case you should have some degree of familiarity with their foundational texts so you don't waste time arguing with cliches and raising points that have long been addressed (whether adequately or not). Generally, comparisons between Nazis and communists have always seemed a bit strange to me because I've never heard of anyone saying "Nazism sounds good on paper, but..." GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 13:50
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"maintaining national and party unity in a period of revolutionary crisis" isn't reaction Vladimir Lenin posted:Repudiation of the Party principle and of Party discipline—that is what the opposition has arrived at. And this is tantamount to completely disarming the proletariat in the interests of the bourgeoisie. It all adds up to that petty-bourgeois diffuseness and instability, that incapacity for sustained effort, unity and organised action, which, if encouraged, must inevitably destroy any proletarian revolutionary movement. https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/index.htm Vladimir Lenin posted:Some people in America have come to think of the Bolsheviks as a small clique of very bad men who are tyrannizing over a vast number of highly intellectual people who would form an admirable Government among themselves the moment the Bolshevik regime was overthrown. This is a mistake, for there is nobody to take our place save butcher Generals and helpless bureaucrats who have already displayed their total incapacity for rule. Leon Trotsky posted:So long as Russia is surrounded by bourgeois countries in which there are powerful cliques that will stop at nothing to strike blows at the workers’ republic, events like the Kronstadt mutiny are quite inevitable, and will probably be repeated many times in the future. We have no grounds for doubting that the workers’ republic will cope with all these attempts on its life, just as it has coped up to now. https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1921/military/ch61.htm GunnerJ posted:Generally, comparisons between Nazis and communists have always seemed a bit strange to me because I've never heard of anyone saying "Nazism sounds good on paper, but..." well you remember how well fascists and communists got along in the second world war, but they're the exact same because
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Jan 28, 2016 22:38
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pragmatism means taking everything lenin and the bolsheviks said at face value and never demanding their claims be demonstrated
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Jan 29, 2016 00:50
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team overhead smash posted:You can tell Hitler is bad because he killed millions of people. You can white supremacists are bad because their argument is one of racial purity and supremacy. So white supremacists are bad because their extreme ideas are harmful and not based in reality, and because their most powerful leader ever killed millions of people? GunnerJ posted:Actually, it's completely fair in that both are entirely correct. But the best way to argue with white nationalists is not to, because their agenda is odious and they don't deserve a hearing. By actually discussing this with communists, though, you have decided that communist ideas deserve a hearing. In which case you should have some degree of familiarity with their foundational texts so you don't waste time arguing with cliches and raising points that have long been addressed (whether adequately or not). Actually, I have argued with white supremacists, just like I'm arguing with communists here.
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Jan 29, 2016 00:57
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Ormi posted:pragmatism means taking everything lenin and the bolsheviks said at face value and never demanding their claims be demonstrated If the Kronstadt rebels hadn't broken poor Comrade Lenin's heart through their evil bourgeois reactionary ways then he would have lived to 120 and ushered in a bright new era where everyone lived in peace and harmony. Jewel Repetition posted:So white supremacists are bad because their extreme ideas are harmful and not based in reality, and because their most powerful leader ever killed millions of people? Yes just like Capitalism is bad for those exact same reasons, yet being reasonable most of us don't just go "bluh bluh blubh Capitalism like Nazis" but rather use critical reason to analyse Capitalism and criticise it on its actual performance; to whit millions needlessly dead each year constituting the ideology with the largest body-count ever in the history of the world.
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Jan 29, 2016 01:04
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team overhead smash posted:Yes just like Capitalism is bad for those exact same reasons, yet being reasonable most of us don't just go "bluh bluh blubh Capitalism like Nazis" but rather use critical reason to analyse Capitalism and criticise it on its actual performance; to whit millions needlessly dead each year constituting the ideology with the largest body-count ever in the history of the world. well fascism IS a very specific stage of capitalism imo and american late capitalists have no problem working with nazi-adjacent or aligned groups to further their interests
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Jan 29, 2016 01:21
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team overhead smash posted:Yes just like Capitalism is bad for those exact same reasons, yet being reasonable most of us don't just go "bluh bluh blubh Capitalism like Nazis" but rather use critical reason to analyse Capitalism and criticise it on its actual performance; to whit millions needlessly dead each year constituting the ideology with the largest body-count ever in the history of the world. That's only true because capitalism has been used far and away more in modernity than communism or fascism. If you look at it per capita they're both much higher.
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Jan 29, 2016 01:22
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Jewel Repetition posted:Actually, I have argued with white supremacists, just like I'm arguing with communists here. Well, good for you. If you're willing to give them a hearing in good faith then it's entirely fair for them to ask you to familiarize yourself with the "major works" which establish their ideology.
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Jan 29, 2016 01:30
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You can't really understand Capitalism in the first place without reading Marx, tbqh.
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Jan 29, 2016 02:14
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Jewel Repetition posted:That's only true because capitalism has been used far and away more in modernity than communism or fascism. If you look at it per capita they're both much higher. I asked you to back this up before and you didn't, while on the other hand I've used the work of a Nobel Laureate academic to show that with the same population and in the same conditions Capitalism kills waaaay more people than Communism (which you ignored).
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Jan 29, 2016 03:31
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i feel the social darwinist didn't add as much to the world as various socialist writers have
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Jan 29, 2016 03:36
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LaVoy Finicum would be alive today if he was a Marxist.
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Jan 29, 2016 07:15
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team overhead smash posted:The only thing is that there are like a dozen variations of socialism so that's not the one true version of socialism or anything and someone else could come along and give a different answer that was also totally legitimate.
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Jan 29, 2016 07:37
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You can't really understand Capitalism in the first place without reading Marx, tbqh. The labor theory of value--borrowing from and building on Ricardo and Smith--is very dated and not particularly edifying.
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Jan 29, 2016 08:03
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team overhead smash posted:The only thing is that there are like a dozen variations of socialism so that's not the one true version of socialism or anything and someone else could come along and give a different answer that was also totally legitimate. beats reading pages of this wankfest
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Jan 29, 2016 10:53
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mike12345 posted:beats reading pages of this wankfest sorry someone's got a gun to your head and is forcing you to read the thread
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Jan 29, 2016 16:56
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Yudo posted:The labor theory of value--borrowing from and building on Ricardo and Smith--is very dated and not particularly edifying. Well then it's a good thing that's not the only thing Marx wrote about. There's a reason that all the bourgeois papers ritualistically trot out "Was Marx right?" articles every time there's a market crisis, and it's because Marx was right.
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Jan 29, 2016 20:06
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I think it's important to take stock of our situation from now and then and remember that we're all a group of highly(?) evolved monkeys floating on a rock in the endless void of space and go from there
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Jan 29, 2016 20:29
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This thread makes me glad that communists are pretty much irrelevant in American politics.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:39
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crabcakes66 posted:This thread makes me glad that communists are FTFY
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Jan 29, 2016 21:47
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crabcakes66 posted:This thread makes me glad that communists are pretty much irrelevant in American politics. as opposed to any of the other dorks itf
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Jan 29, 2016 22:47
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crabcakes66 posted:This thread makes me glad that communists are pretty much irrelevant in American politics. I would agree but, I don't have anything against anyone in this thread in particular, just the ideology of communism.
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Jan 29, 2016 23:25
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i don't really have a problem with killing the rich but it seems like when we do we kill a bunch of other people as well whoops
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Jan 30, 2016 01:09
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:do you consider a Revolutionary Marxist-Leninist Party working toward International Socialist Revolution in the United States less crazier than the greens? the proximity to the shitfest dimension of dnd is really starting to show
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Jan 30, 2016 03:13
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Homework Explainer posted:it does, but hey who's this guy marx anyway? he's dead now. shows how much he knows let me tell you something buddy or i s it "comrade" with you people? socialism has been responsible for the death o f milliuons and millions and even more misery dont come in and spit on AMERICA and tell me its raining
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Jan 30, 2016 03:24
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:class collaboration is great and crisis isnt inherent to capitalism! hey hey its called a business cycle wise guy
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Jan 30, 2016 03:28
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