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I've been waiting for this. *Cracks knuckles*
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Jan 21, 2016 10:33
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| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 19:30 |
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Things I'm noticing at a glance: - "Enivronmental racism" - All their positions are Bernie's positions but TO THE EXTREME - They give an incorrect figure for our military budget, and imply they want to get rid of the whole thing lol - Yeah the president definitely has the power to change the constitution - Dastardly capitalism creating nuclear weapons somehow - They have "liberation" in their name, which is a word that lets you know something is bullshit, kind of like Freedom or Patriot - 
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Jan 21, 2016 10:39
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I can't wait to fight a socialist in the streets. I hope it's fishmech.
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Jan 21, 2016 10:56
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:no actually i welcome the attention of bernie supporters, because i think they should look into the PSL, especially when Bernie drops out in April or so. however i will enthusiastically point out their enormous hypocrisy There's nothing hypocritical about being against actual socialism while being for Bernie, who's a social democrat and has denounced communism since he was in college.
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Jan 21, 2016 23:20
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Also that web site is practically made of the fallacy of the undistributed middle. They're pointing at how bad unregulated laissez-faire capitalism is and saying socialism is the only alternative.
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Jan 21, 2016 23:23
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Europe is doing real well with social democracy these days huh? Too bad it's unsustainable and it gets dismantled in austerity, or it creates a super-exploited national/racial underclass. The rate of profit declines no matter where you are, and eventually the ownership of the means of production comes into question. No it doesn't doctor Zimbardo.
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Jan 21, 2016 23:46
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Homework Explainer posted:it does, but hey who's this guy marx anyway? he's dead now. shows how much he knows Isn't that the guy whose ideas caused every country that tried them to go to hell?
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Jan 21, 2016 23:54
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Any system that relies on constant growth in order to function sets itself up for cyclical collapse, and eventual catastrophic implosion in a closed environment (our planet). A system like socialism which doesn't rely on growth in order to function properly, is the only real alternative. Look up the difference between intensive and extensive growth. I don't think environmentalism is even why Marxists normally theorize the "implosions."
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Jan 22, 2016 06:01
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Um, excuse me, but did you know that Communism is responsible for the deaths of a Million-Bajillion people?* Holy poo poo, are you like a holocaust denier but for Stalinism? Horseshoe theory is real.
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Jan 22, 2016 06:03
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Phase 1: Massive loss of human life through state suppression and famine Phase 2: ??? Phase 3: Utopia
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Jan 22, 2016 08:12
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More evidence of horseshoe theory: they use "red-baiting" like rightists use "race-baiting," except at the mention of the USSR instead of African Americans.
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Jan 22, 2016 08:15
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NotWearingPants posted:Call me crazy but I think some things work better when privately owned and some things work better when run by the government. We've been going way too far to the private side. Idiots are selling highways and poo poo.  Pener Kropoopkin posted:The late 19th and early 20th Centuries were an unprecedented orgy of blood and violence unparalleled in all of History, but somehow Liberals are above it all because they had the best intentions. Fukken LMAO. Liberal democracies wage a lot less war, especially with each other, than any other political system.
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Jan 22, 2016 09:35
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Lol irl.
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Jan 22, 2016 10:46
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Homework Explainer posted:not even robert conquest, a guy whose job it was to disseminate anti-soviet propaganda for the british government, calls the famine a genocide lol. the entire country was affected The number is lower than 11 million, and there are capitalist countries where people aren't starving, so that can't be an inherent problem with capitalism.
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Jan 22, 2016 19:28
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Bryter posted:yeah, the point is that it's more profitable to provide enough food to those non-starving countries to produce an obesity epidemic than it is to provide starving people in the developing world enough food to live. Hell, even at the national level most countries with starving people have a food surplus, but it's not profitable to give food to dying impoverished people so, welp, sorry RIP Right, and you need social programs like SNAP to fill that gap. That's what I'm advocating. Jewel Repetition fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 20:12
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Homework Explainer posted:yes tiny specks of imperial superprofits manage to land in the pockets of the american poor. that doesn't mean global privation is ok lol, or that the lot of the massive american proletariat wouldn't be infinitely better under socialism. I do think the American proletariat are better now than they would be deprived of political freedom, economic freedom, and food. But also that they'd be better still with more unions, more leave (sick, vacation and child) and a higher minimum wage.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:18
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Homework Explainer posted:yes a democratic system of government where the working class is actually represented and participates directly in politics is so much worse than the one we have now, Socialism leads to governments that are less democratic, not more. And I'm all for making our current system more democratic through campaign finance reform and co-ops. I'm not for doing so by going "gently caress it." Edit: Also doing anything possible to improve voter participation and engagement. Homework Explainer posted:and an economic system that extracts surplus value is somehow way way better than one that doesn't Correct.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:23
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Horseshoe theory riddle of the day: they want to literally kill an entire group of people just for who they are, even if they haven't done anything wrong. Am I talking about fascists and blacks/jews or socialists and the bourgeoisie?
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Jan 22, 2016 20:29
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Mayor Dave posted:by definition the bourgeoisie have done something wrong So a business owner who worked her way there from the bottom, and treats and pays all of her employees well, did something so wrong she deserves to die?
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Jan 22, 2016 20:34
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Something I've wondered: do executives in a cooperative still count as capitally punishable bourgeoisie?
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Jan 22, 2016 20:36
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Jewel Repetition posted:Something I've wondered: do executives in a cooperative still count as capitally punishable bourgeoisie? Maybe since they only partially own the means of production you only partially decapitate them, like Nearly Headless Nick? Mods? Central committee members?
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Jan 22, 2016 20:45
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Homework Explainer posted:not even robert conquest, a guy whose job it was to disseminate anti-soviet propaganda for the british government, calls the famine a genocide lol. the entire country was affected I forgot to say this earlier, but the scholarly consensus is in fact that it was manmade and only worsened by natural factors.
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Jan 22, 2016 20:54
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Homework Explainer posted:communists the same as fascists, and other chestnuts from the Nazi Rehabilitation Handbook The similarity is because communists are bad, not because fascists are good.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:01
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Basically it's like Shin Megami Tensei IV, unregulated capitalism is the chaos ending, socialism is the law ending, and social democracy is the neutral/human ending.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:31
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:So in your mind socialized agriculture is like The Matrix? No, there's enough of the Matrix nutrient slurry for all the humans.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:15
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:A talking point invented by the John Birch Society in the 50's along with other reactionary propaganda. Actually it was invented by a liberal French philosopher named Jean-Pierre Faye.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:20
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Homework Explainer posted:food selection for the petit bourgeois in the most economically advanced country on the planet was superior to that of a developing economy that still managed to go toe-to-toe with said country for much of the 20th century Interesting that its "developing" economy was so bad while it was so powerful otherwise. Maybe there was something wrong with its economic system. Btw not everyone who shops at a grocery store is "petit bourgeois."
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Jan 22, 2016 22:31
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Homework Explainer posted:"It is regrettable that many of the advocates of the genocide thesis continue to claim Conquest to justify their position, despite his clearly expressed views on this matter. See the Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute Conference on Holodomor on November 18, 2008. At the conference Nicolas Werth was asked by a participant in the conference, who had attended a lecture given by Wheatcroft, whether Conquest accepted the view that the famine was genocide. Werth strangely replied that ‘we all know in scientific circles the very complicated relations between Conquest and Wheatcroft’; he repeated this several times, but declined to reply to the question. Kul’chitskii more straightforwardly has explained that in June 2006 a Ukrainian delegation of experts on the Holocaust and the Holodomor met Robert Conquest in Stanford University and enquired about his views, and were told directly by him that he preferred not to use the term genocide (Kul’chitskii (2007), 176)." "Holodomor was intentional" - the majority of scholars.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:33
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Aliquid posted:bernie's right flank must be made up of some pretty strange people This thread is the only place where I, somebody who's considered a bleeding heart tax-and-spend extreme left winger in their own country, can be labeled rightist or reactionary. It's surreal.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:35
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Homework Explainer posted:i didn't say it was bad, i said it and the us weren't equivalent developmentally. the fact the ussr competed and often outperformed a country with such an advanced economy in metrics like literacy, infant mortality and life expectancy (also lol at the idea of a country doing genocide on its people while also doubling life expectancy) is indication that an advanced socialism would be even more superior Soviet life expectancy and infant mortality were worse than ours toward the end, because their healthcare deteriorated just like everything else inevitably does in a communist system. Also the increased life expectancy came after the genocide. Homework Explainer posted:do you know what a food desert is Yeah. I live in one, and I'm below the poverty line, yet I still eat groceries as opposed to, I don't know, soup from public kitchens. Homework Explainer posted:you keep saying it was intentional and there's this incredible consensus without providing any evidence. there's internal soviet documents after the archives opened that showed the leadership responded to the crisis. stalin himself privately expressed fear that the ussr would "lose ukraine." the facts don't line up with the genocide hypothesis http://www.melgrosh.unimelb.edu.au/documents/Davies_Wheatcroft_ch.4_Famine.pdf http://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/History#ref404577 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UkFlO7hoxOMC&pg=PA194&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false http://www.faminegenocide.com/kuryliw/the_ukrainian_genocide.htm For examples. And I'm pretty sure if he ever said he was afraid of "losing Ukraine" it was in a military/ideological context.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:48
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:And in my mind socialized agriculture looks more like Thomas Sankara's Burkina Faso, in which lands were redistributed to the peasants who worked them, while fertilizers and agricultural capital were provided by the government. Within 3 years Burkina Faso went from a food importer which relied on foreign aid, to a food exporter which had achieved food security for all Burkinabe. Subsidies are fine.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:50
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Yudo posted:Except that there is widespread consensus and considerable evidence to support it and you are mulishly denying in much the same way it is denied that climate change is not real or that the holocaust never happened: hand waving and fantasy. The very evidence you cite to support this--Tauger--is aggressively criticized by Davies & Wheatcroft who you also cite ITT. You refute yourself. I didn't even catch that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCh2l0J1uJk
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Jan 22, 2016 22:52
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Homework Explainer posted:and gently caress off with this equating with holocaust/climate change denial. even the ukrainian commission to investigate the famine couldn't come to a consensus on the issue. Ukrainian court considers it to be a genocide: http://lb.ua/news/2010/01/14/19793_nalivaychenko_nazval_kolichestvo_zh.html Homework Explainer posted:a majority of russians when polled would prefer the return of the soviet system and this holds true for many of the former republics, but i guess westerners on the internet know better, huh That's because Russia loving sucks now. It's a combination of nostalgia and the mistaken belief that communism would fix their new problems. Pener Kropoopkin posted:The whole nature of the problem that we've been bringing up is that the ability of the capitalist system to produce a variety of quality goods was never in question, the issue is the ability of the system to distribute those goods where they are most needed. I posted multiple links to qualified sources about the food security crisis in the United States of all places, and major issues of quality with foods that are available to the poor; but then your eyes glazed over and you started blabbing about a Soviet defector eating dog food. The problems with food security here are nothing compared to what's happened in socialist countries. We're not eating cats like Cuba or dying by the millions like the USSR.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:29
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Homework Explainer posted:in the spirit of the thread's original subject matter i recommend a purge because i've had this argument so many times and literally no one arguing these anticom positions ever changes their mind. this is a waste of my time and yours That's one thing we can agree on.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:43
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The Kingfish posted:British capitalists killed 2 million Indians throughout the Bengal Famine of 1948. *colonialists
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Jan 22, 2016 23:57
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Has anyone ever denied a genocide/atrocity happened and been on the right side of history?
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Jan 22, 2016 23:57
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Transfer payments via programs like SNAP may solve the issue of accessibility without addressing the issues of dietary choice, It's an issue that we have choice
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Jan 23, 2016 00:06
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Bryter posted:Neither are Cubans, they experienced a food shortage in the 90s as a result of the collapse of the Soviet Bloc, but they've long since recovered, despite the embargo. That's what I was referring to. People in the former USSR aren't starving to death either.
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Jan 23, 2016 00:08
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Yudo is great, tell us more about how communists are trying to immanentize the eschaton, Mr. All-Varsity College Republican Debate & Book Club Is calling someone a conservative the only trick you can do?
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Jan 23, 2016 00:09
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| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 19:30 |
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Bryter posted:If you understand that Cuba's problems with food security in the 90s were down to the loss of their major trading partners and the US embargo, you probably shouldn't imply that they were a result of them being a socialist country. No, it does go back to their socialism. Their backwards economy necessitated the USSR propping them up, so when it dissolved they were left with a famine and had to institute capitalist reforms.
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Jan 23, 2016 00:21
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