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Of course people don't want to live near a military base. So either we find a place where the majority of people will forever want to live near it (good luck) or somebody bites the bullet and saves Japan billions of dollars a year and god-knows how many lives in exchange for some inconvenience for a small fraction of the country. On the other hand, perhaps a magical middle-school girl could teach us some lessons about tolerance and friendship? Jagchosis you are an expert on this, care to chime in? Edit: This is a re-enactment of the kind of war America might start and pointlessly pull Japan into. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f4clXg9n-U EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 03:22
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EasternBronze posted:Of course people don't want to live near a military base. So either we find a place where the majority of people will forever want to live near it (good luck) or somebody bites the bullet and saves Japan billions of dollars a year and god-knows how many lives in exchange for some inconvenience for a small fraction of the country. Would you like to take any stab at all at this number? I mean, you're the one imagining the conflict that Japan might hypothetically be in.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:28
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Well so far Japan has had almost no war deaths since 1945 under American security guarantees. If things instead were more similar to the pre-1945 status quo its hard to say what the situation would be but looking at the historical record I can say we would have had more war deaths with a Pacific that has little or no American presence. Much like Europe. Also, I'm not the only one imagining a possible conflict, the Japanese government has as well which is why the bases have stayed in Okinawa and will stay for the indefinite future. Unless you want to contend the Japanese government has some other motive for keeping the bases beyond self-interest.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:33
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EasternBronze posted:Well so far Japan has had almost no war deaths since 1945 under American security guarantees. If things instead were more similar to the pre-1945 status quo its hard to say what the situation would be but looking at the historical record I can say we would have had more war deaths with a Pacific that has little or no American presence. Much like Europe. So I bought this rock, which protects me from tigers...
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Jan 21, 2016 03:35
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JeffersonClay posted:People who support the military base but also want to respect okinawan opinion would rightly be classified as Undecided or other, 29% of the poll. quote:The question you'd have us look at doesn't ask about the military base, it asks about Abe's handling of the issue. Considering his approval rating is around 40%, I'm not shocked that nearly 60 percent of the population thinks he mishandled the issue. Can we conclude those 60% also oppose the military base? No.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:37
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:So I bought this rock, which protects me from tigers... The American military is the most powerful military in the world, bar none. The cost for Japan picking up these guarantees is tiny while the potential payout America is on the hook for is huge. Its like insurance.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:38
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EasternBronze posted:Of course people don't want to live near a military base. So either we find a place where the majority of people will forever want to live near it (good luck) or somebody bites the bullet and saves Japan billions of dollars a year and god-knows how many lives in exchange for some inconvenience for a small fraction of the country. I'm curious how your constant anime references are relevant to the topic at hand? It sorta seems like you're just making random personal attacks and not realizing how childish it makes you look instead of fully engaging in arguments. I'm curious how you got your billions of dollars figure and what lives you consider to be saved by the presence of the American bases. Do you feel that China would be totally willing to enter an aggressive war against Japan if America didn't have military bases there? Have you thought at all about what that would do to their export based economy as just a basic first reason why that is immensely unlikely to actually happen? As a side note, thank you for your brave commitment to the selective service! 
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Jan 21, 2016 03:38
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EasternBronze posted:The American military is the most powerful military in the world, bar none. The cost for Japan picking up these guarantees is tiny while the potential payout America is on the hook for is huge. ...and I haven't been mauled by a tiger once! Clearly this was a sound investment.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:39
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Chomskyan posted:But this is an important issue No it isn't. You are the only person here who cares about this issue. You care about it so much you waited six months to make the same thread, hoping everyone would agree with your stupid opinions this time. Also nice apologism for Chinese jingoism, really puts your priorities on display.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:42
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LorrdErnie posted:Do you feel that China would be totally willing to enter an aggressive war against Japan if America didn't have military bases there? Have you thought at all about what that would do to their export based economy as just a basic first reason why that is immensely unlikely to actually happen? Good to know that nobody that people trade with could ever be a security threat
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Jan 21, 2016 03:45
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LorrdErnie posted:I'm curious how your constant anime references are relevant to the topic at hand? It sorta seems like you're just making random personal attacks and not realizing how childish it makes you look instead of fully engaging in arguments. If someone is going to step up with absurd arguments about a complex topic you should probably demonstrate some familiarity with the topic beyond "animated twelve year-olds are my passion". The argument that economic inter-dependence makes war impossible is a blatant false-hood, the entire history of the 20th century disproves this. Noone is saying that if America leaves there will be a war tomorrow, but if you think that America's relationship with Japan doesn't bring a huge factor of deterrence into the equation I'm not sure what to tell you. Its obvious the Japanese government considers American-provided security to be extremely important. How does it hurt Japan if the world's most powerful navy is in their corner if, God-forbid there is some kind of crisis in the region? Who's to say there isn't a political crisis in China next year (a stable country if there ever was one) and some admiral in a moment of weakness decides he wants to pick up a Japanese island? What if North Korea falls apart and now some random general has a missile silo out there somewhere? Lumberjack Bonanza posted:...and I haven't been mauled by a tiger once! Clearly this was a sound investment. Yes, security agreements and international diplomacy are all just silly superstitions indulged in by feeble-minded people. The jig is up, nice catch there. Please inform the Japanese government at once. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 03:48
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Bro Dad posted:No it isn't. You are the only person here who cares about this issue. You care about it so much you waited six months to make the same thread, hoping everyone would agree with your stupid opinions this time. I thought the thread topic was very interesting and appreciated it being posted, thanks. Fojar38 posted:Good to know that nobody that people trade with could ever be a security threat Hmm.... This seems like exactly what I said and not an idiot's interpretation at all!
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Jan 21, 2016 03:49
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Fojar38 posted:You claimed, with what I presume is complete sincerity, that any conflict on Japan's periphery would be started by the US, keeping in mind that Japan lives on the periphery of a country that routinely threatens to nuke it and another country that's been buzzing Japanese airspace and stalking Japanese waters for years now Fojar38 posted:The PLA released a video last summer of them pelting Japanese islands with missiles and then physically invading them Fojar38 posted:But enough about that did you know that Amerikkka wakes up Okinawans with their jets
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Jan 21, 2016 03:54
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EasternBronze posted:If someone is going to step up with absurd arguments about a complex topic you should probably demonstrate some familiarity with the topic beyond "animated twelve year-olds are my passion". Yeah youe argument that you're a racist expat who registered for the loving selective service means you know better than the Okinawans what they want was a super nuanced opinion. Have you even addressed the idea that if these bases are so important to the security of Japan that maybe the footprint of the bases could be spread a bit more evenly? Or how Japanese electoral politics work and how you don't seem to understand them? Or how utterly ridiculous the idea that a few academics in China shittalking years ago is a sign of the imminent security concern? Anyway you are an unbelievable coward for thinking that selective service registration is equivalent to serving at all let alone putting your life on the line for the security of the Japanese people, and this deep and pronounced cowardice informs your pathetic argumentation tactic of citing loving Madoka like you have a point. If I want to bring completely irrelevant personal attacks I don't even have to go more than a page back into your post history to find you saying racist stuff about East Asians, which might be a sign you are not someone who should be engaging with this topic!
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Jan 21, 2016 03:55
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EasternBronze posted:Yes, security agreements and international diplomacy are all just silly superstitions indulged in by feeble-minded people. The jig is up, nice catch there. Please inform the Japanese government at once. I asked you for a justification, and the best you could give is that no one else is occupying Okinawa, and that the government who never faces opposition likes it just fine. This isn't sound reasoning, especially when you're claiming that it's only by the grace of the US that there hasn't been some vague number dead.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:56
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LorrdErnie posted:I thought the thread topic was very interesting and appreciated it being posted, thanks. No problem.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:57
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Your logic would be sound if America, China and North Korea were morally equal actors, which they aren't. China is literally opposed to every single principle which has advanced humanity's ideals since the middle ages. The Magna Carta written almost a thousand years ago is too progressive for their society. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2016 03:59
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EasternBronze posted:Your logic would be sound if America, China and North Korea were morally equal actors, which they aren't. China is literally opposed to every single principle which has advanced humanity's ideals since the middle ages. The Magna Carta[/ur;] written almost a thousand years ago is [url=http://shanghaiist.com/2015/10/16/magna_carta_beijing.php]too progressive for their society. Hahahahaha, so it's just out and out racism now.
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Jan 21, 2016 03:59
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Did you read the article? That's literally what it said. quote:In 2013, the CCP issued “Document 9,” which listed “seven unmentionables” that are considered taboo. Number one was “Western Constitutional Democracy,” followed by the promotion of “universal values” that threaten “the foundations of the Party’s leadership.” This is a country where "human rights" is a proscribed concept by the government. They are literally in opposition to human rights.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:01
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EasternBronze posted:If someone is going to step up with absurd arguments about a complex topic you should probably demonstrate some familiarity with the topic beyond "animated twelve year-olds are my passion".  EasternBronze posted:The argument that economic inter-dependence makes war impossible is a blatant false-hood, the entire history of the 20th century disproves this. Noone is saying that if America leaves there will be a war tomorrow, but if you think that America's relationship with Japan doesn't bring a huge factor of deterrence into the equation I'm not sure what to tell you. Its obvious the Japanese government considers American-provided security to be extremely important. How does it hurt Japan if the world's most powerful navy is in their corner if, God-forbid there is some kind of crisis in the region? Do you feel that it would be impossible for the United States to have a relationship with Japan without having multiple military bases in the area? Would the world's most powerful navy not be in their corner if they couldn't house themselves in the area? Why is having an immediate military presence in the area necessary for a deterrent effect? Also I didn't claim that economic interdependence made war impossible, I claimed that it made it unlikely because it would be an exceedingly unwise move. A first world country taking action against another country in a similar position is something that hasn't happened since WWII. None of us have any idea what would happen given those circumstances but I see little evidence that China is on the brink of some sort of actual military action. Why do you think that this is something that is likely? Why do you think that the US being able to respond later that day rather than immediately would be the tipping point in their decision?
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Jan 21, 2016 04:01
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quote:By the way, can you cite a global security analyst or something (anything?) to support your claim that China would invade Japan were it not for a US military presence? This is such a dumb argument. "Prove that Japan wouldn't invade China again if not for the CCP  "quote:Yeah that was aggressive and unhelpful. By the way, are you aware that the US performs massive military drills simulating an invasion of China, sorry, North Korea yearly, in close proximity to China, often including nuclear capable military assets in these drills despite Chinese objections? Surely, someone as opposed to aggressive military posturing as yourself wouldn't be in favor of-- oh wait. True to his namesake, Forums Poster Chomskyan turns out to be a massive apologist towards Asian autocracies
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Jan 21, 2016 04:02
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EasternBronze posted:Your logic would be sound if America, China and North Korea were morally equal actors, which they aren't. China is literally opposed to every single principle which has advanced humanity's ideals since the middle ages. The Magna Carta written almost a thousand years ago is too progressive for their society. Hey speaking of unwanted American bases, but China is evil because they aren't huge fans of habeas corpus
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Jan 21, 2016 04:02
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EasternBronze posted:Your logic would be sound if America, China and North Korea were morally equal actors, which they aren't. China is literally opposed to every single principle which has advanced humanity's ideals since the middle ages. The Magna Carta written almost a thousand years ago is too progressive for their society. Orientalism and American Exceptionalism all in one post. Full points.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:03
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Jagchosis posted:China is evil because they aren't huge fans of habeas corpus This is correct glad you agree
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Jan 21, 2016 04:03
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Fojar38 posted:This is correct glad you agree So I'd imagine you feel the same way about the United States government? If you didn't you'd kinda seem like a huge hypocrite especially given the long track record of the US overthrowing democracies around the world.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:07
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LorrdErnie posted:So I'd imagine you feel the same way about the United States government? Or hypocrite by following my link to an example of America's systematic violation of habeas
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Jan 21, 2016 04:08
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"Stop criticizing China, let's talk about unrelated bad things the US did instead!" This isn't the first time someone has tried to deflect criticism of a one-party state that way and probably won't be the last.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:10
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Fojar38 posted:"Stop criticizing China, let's talk about unrelated bad things the US did instead!" The argument was literally that China is morally worse than the United States you liar.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:11
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Jagchosis posted:Or hypocrite by following my link to an example of America's systematic violation of habeas Following the September 11 attacks, President George W. Bush attempted to place Guantanamo Bay detainees outside of the jurisdiction of habeas corpus but this was later overturned by a decision of the Supreme Court. Ughhhh rule of law who needs that crap
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Jan 21, 2016 04:12
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Fojar38 posted:"Stop criticizing China, let's talk about unrelated bad things the US did instead!" I think it's pretty relevant if you want to discuss why America occupying a territory is better than the possibility of China maybe attempting it sometime, eventually.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:12
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Fojar38 posted:This is such a dumb argument. "Prove that Japan wouldn't invade China again if not for the CCP quote:True to his namesake, Forums Poster Chomskyan turns out to be a massive apologist towards Asian autocracies
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Jan 21, 2016 04:12
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Fojar38 posted:"Stop criticizing China, let's talk about unrelated bad things the US did instead!" How is it deflection when the initial topic was unwanted United States military bases and not Chinese foreign policy at all? Also how are US human rights violations "unrelated" to Chinese human rights violations? You'd think they'd be related by the whole "human rights violations" bit.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:14
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Fojar38 posted:Following the September 11 attacks, President George W. Bush attempted to place Guantanamo Bay detainees outside of the jurisdiction of habeas corpus but this was later overturned by a decision of the Supreme Court. So what happened after that Supreme Court decision? Did I miss the news story about all the detainees being allowed to return home or face trial rather than be held indefinitely under conditions where we have significant evidence that they were subjected to torture. (In case you were wondering, torture is not part of the rule of law within the US. Turns out, it's actually illegal)
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Jan 21, 2016 04:16
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Jagchosis posted:The argument was literally that China is morally worse than the United States you liar. Every nation that isn't America is morally worse than America.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:19
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Hmm so now the Magna Carta is the source of all virtue in governance eh? No wonder those inscrutable Oriental folk cannot stop committing human rights violations, they cannot read the western writing that goes from side-to-side.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:25
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I think it's pretty relevant if you want to discuss why America occupying a territory is better than the possibility of China maybe attempting it sometime, eventually. Okinawa is an "occupation" now? quote:Look Fojar, I'm honestly just trying to give you a chance. Provide something, anything to show that you actually know what you're talking about. Maybe that you've read a book or scholarly work on the subject and are just partially (as opposed to entirely) talking out of your rear end. You don't have to "prove" that China would invade Japan, just make an argument for why you believe they might. By the way, when I say "argument" here I mean it in the classical sense of the word, not what you usually do (copy-paste stock replies from freerepublic). China unilaterally established an ADIZ over Japanese airspace in the East China Sea and has repeatedly said that it would use force against Japan to "defend" them. China repeatedly buzzes Japanese airplanes flying in Japanese airspace They also regularly sail into Japanese waters unannounced And of course in the followup to their explicitly "anti-Japanese" military parade they released the video I mentioned where they show the PLA attacking and physically conquering Japanese territory quote:I just think that in this case the US's actions are just as bad or worse, don't you? Nope. One is a liberal democracy and the other is an autocracy. That alone makes a world of difference.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:26
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Jagchosis posted:Yeah youe argument that you're a racist expat who registered for the loving selective service means you know better than the Okinawans what they want was a super nuanced opinion. Have you even addressed the idea that if these bases are so important to the security of Japan that maybe the footprint of the bases could be spread a bit more evenly? Or how Japanese electoral politics work and how you don't seem to understand them? Or how utterly ridiculous the idea that a few academics in China shittalking years ago is a sign of the imminent security concern? If Japan wants to move the base around I don't see why they couldn't but I have a feeling that Okinawa is preferred for strategic reasons. Japan can deal with its own local political issues however they want. If you want to claim China isn't a realistic security concern I suggest you take it up with every single country neighboring China because they all feel the same way. I guess Vietnam is just a deluded pawn of America, after all they literally haven't been invaded by China in nearly 30 years! quote:Anyway you are an unbelievable coward for thinking that selective service registration is equivalent to serving at all let alone putting your life on the line for the security of the Japanese people, and this deep and pronounced cowardice informs your pathetic argumentation tactic of citing loving Madoka like you have a point. If I want to bring completely irrelevant personal attacks I don't even have to go more than a page back into your post history to find you saying racist stuff about East Asians, which might be a sign you are not someone who should be engaging with this topic! Being in the selective service means you can be drafted and if in the small chance there was ever a large war against Japan or some such I could be called up to fight even if my own home wasn't threatened. This is a reality. The reverse is not true, this is also a reality. Watching anime about pre-teen girls and than getting really defensive about it makes it seem like you realize there is something very awkward and a little wrong maybe. That is also reality. If you want to talk about how wonderful China is feel free to join us in the China threads, I'm sure your knowledge of Mandarin and your years of living there have given you a strong base from which to share your wisdom. Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I asked you for a justification, and the best you could give is that no one else is occupying Okinawa, and that the government who never faces opposition likes it just fine. This isn't sound reasoning, especially when you're claiming that it's only by the grace of the US that there hasn't been some vague number dead. Please tell me what is your explanation for the remarkable era of peace the Pacific has found itself in for the last 70 years and explain how it is that two successful prosperous countries like Japan and South Korea have not yet bothered gaining nuclear weapons. LorrdErnie posted:
1. Having a physical presence in an area is like an engage switch and a guarantee that we're serious. If there isn't any American skin in the game there would be good reason for Japan to be concerned that maybe America won't be as enthusiastic in their support as they might otherwise be. This is why the U.S. has what amounts to a token force on the DMZ. If there was some kind of invasion and American soldiers are killed, its alot harder to back out and leave our ally out to dry. That and of course if you're going to do something in the Sea of Japan than its easier to be based in Okinawa than Hawaii. 2. It is unlikely, looking NOW. What the future holds we don't know. What I do know, and the relevant actors agree with me, is that the potential cost is so high its worth investing a little bit in being prepared for the worst case scenario. Japan doesn't gain anything substantial by having to double its defense budget and develop its own nuclear weapons arsenal to satisfy vague nationalistic feelings. @Jagchosis, Chomskysan I see what you guys are saying here, America isn't perfect so anyone opposing America must be morally equal or even better. Sorry, but the world doesn't work like that. I don't support Guantanamo Bay and I suspect no one in this thread does, noone here is claiming America is perfect. I am however willing to wager neither of you have ever lived in China nor do you speak the language and I'm going to tell you right now that there's no comparison. You can walk around on a street corner anywhere in America and protest about Guantanamo Bay and vote for anyone you want. Maybe you live in America now and your comments about America are perfectly fine. If you lived in China, you could be jailed and you would have basically no legal protections for just making those kinds of comments. In fact I don't think a Chinese version of DnD would ever be allowed either. Don't you see the irony in using the free debate space America has secured to support a one-party oligarchy who would never give you the same right in a thousand years? The U.S. legal system isn't perfect by any means but I don't see how you can stand here and try to claim that China's active rejection of every progressive ideal of the last 400+ years is the same as America failing to live up to those ideals. Why don't you ask the Japanese people about what they think about China and if they think a Chinese occupation of Okinawa would be the same as an American. Go ahead. SedanChair posted:Hmm so now the Magna Carta is the source of all virtue in governance eh? No wonder those inscrutable Oriental folk cannot stop committing human rights violations, they cannot read the western writing that goes from side-to-side. Feel free to actually read the article and than explain to me why it needs to be censored for the good of the people. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 04:29
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Saddle up, it's time for the Chinese war. Saddle up young man, your unskilled, shiftless manpower is essential to the prosecution of this technology war. YOUR rear end IS DRAFTED Selective Service is real, and not at all a pointless political gesture Carter re-started to posture against the Soviets. Saddle up.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:32
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 Glorious People's Republic needs its honor defended on the internet
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Jan 21, 2016 04:33
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Wow Fojar38, thats some disgusting Orientalist racism, posting that.SedanChair posted:Saddle up, it's time for the Chinese war. Saddle up young man, your unskilled, shiftless manpower is essential to the prosecution of this technology war. YOUR rear end IS DRAFTED Feel free to talk about why you think people shouldn't be allowed too see the Magna Carta, or continue to just snark I guess. You'll find no complaint from me if they abolish the selective service system.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:35
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