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His Purple Majesty posted:Yes we should get reperations and it should come in the form of direct payments, low interest loans to start viable businesses, reduced cost of public university, removal of all confederate land marks, and an offcial binding apology for slavery, jim crow, the black codes, cointelpro, and economic deprivation. Anything less does not interest me. Sounds good to me.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:59
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Yeah, it's a shame that people are setting traps for Sanders asking him politically oriented questions. The man's got a presidential campaign to run, he doesn't have time for this nonsense. But only for Sanders. There lies the problem.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:59
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There have been numerous official state and federal apologies for slavery and Jim Crow. I don't know what constitutes a "binding" apology.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:00
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Badger of Basra posted:Well he's running for president of the United States in 2016, so he'd be well served by gaining a little racial consciousness. I hope for the same thing, although I'm not sure how much of a difference it would really make running against a Clinton. Maybe in the national? MLK posted:"I've seen my dream shattered as I've walked the streets of Chicago and see Negroes, young men and women, with a sense of utter hopelessness because they can't find any jobs. ... I've seen my dream shattered as I've been through Appalachia, and I've seen my white brothers along with Negroes living in poverty. And I'm concerned about white poverty as much as I'm concerned about Negro poverty." White people shouldn't quote MLK to serve their own selfish white supremacist interests
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Jan 20, 2016 20:00
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His Purple Majesty posted:Oh also nationalize all companys that profited directly from slavery that are still around. Also, gently caress yes this.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:01
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stephenfry posted:I'm not seeing this matter gambit in the article. I get that Sanders is only going to come back with the stump speech, but the political meaning of him not coming back with a wholehearted embrace of a politically unpopular idea is distinct from the reality that his proposed policies would help. As TNC pointed out in the article, it's ridiculous that people are saying reparations is "politically unpopular" when he's running as a literal socialist. "Why are people asking him about Unicorns, this distracts from the Leprechaun agenda"
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Jan 20, 2016 20:01
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Not a Step posted:How much of your reparations are you going to give to Natives though for all the land theft and the current abysmal nature of the reservation system? Right after we get ours we will institute the same program for members of recognized tribes along with giving tribes actual sovereignty. $5 indians need not apply.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:02
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His Purple Majesty posted:Literally destroy America and let the entire nation burn to the ground so we may dance in its dying embers
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Jan 20, 2016 20:02
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Popular Thug Drink posted:As TNC pointed out in the article, it's ridiculous that people are saying reparations is "politically unpopular" when he's running as a literal socialist.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:02
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The programs that Sanders supports are generally quite popular. Reparations are generally unpopular.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:03
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Popular Thug Drink posted:They aren't necessarily. Black americans were excluded from many parts of the great social welfare programs of the 20th century - the GI Bill, FHA loans, public education, even the Interstates were built through black neighborhoods to make it easier to get to white neighborhoods... Agreed. We should do more non-racist social programs and welfare. His Purple Majesty posted:Yes we should get reperations and it should come in the form of direct payments, low interest loans to start viable businesses, reduced cost of public university, removal of all confederate land marks, and an offcial binding apology for slavery, jim crow, the black codes, cointelpro, and economic deprivation. Anything less does not interest me. We already have the first three, although we should improve the programs. Does it matter that the programs target the poor regardless of race? They are still, at the aggregate, a transfer of wealth from the (predominantly white) rich to the (predominantly non-white) poor. I agree about the landmarks and apologies, and while symbols are important, I'm not sure they're as important as money.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:04
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I at the very least thing that there should be a federal investigation and research into it. At the very least we are owed that and I think Ta-nehisi agrees. As for Bernie, he's been blasted over this before. I really am unsympathetic to his position and I don't think this new article was some kind of gotcha but I do think that while Bernie's position is ideologically consistent, it also has glaring holes in it.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:04
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Here's how you could implemeny reparations: Give every American a Guaranteed Basic Income equal to the poverty level, paid for by taxing illegal immigrants.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:04
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walgreenslatino posted:There have been numerous official state and federal apologies for slavery and Jim Crow. I don't know what constitutes a "binding" apology. Binding might be if something prevented southern Republicans from trying to re-implement that poo poo every few years. Popular Thug Drink posted:As TNC pointed out in the article, it's ridiculous that people are saying reparations is "politically unpopular" when he's running as a literal socialist. Electing a democratic socialist wouldn't start a civil war. The degree of "politically unpopular" is a gap the size of the grand canyon.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:05
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walgreenslatino posted:There have been numerous official state and federal apologies for slavery and Jim Crow. I don't know what constitutes a "binding" apology. Words say nothing; only money talks.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:05
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Popular Thug Drink posted:As TNC pointed out in the article, it's ridiculous that people are saying reparations is "politically unpopular" when he's running as a literal socialist. This only applies if you think Bernie is running a dishonest campaign to begin with and doesn't actually believe UHC is achievable with any amount of work. In that case promise everything you can because you're never going to achieve any of it, you're just pushing the base (and the only *real* candidate, HRC) left. If, instead, Bernie believes UHC will be a Herculean task that will consume all political capital and effort for years to come then ignoring reparations as a divisive distraction is the correct response. His Purple Majesty posted:Right after we get ours we will institute the same program for members of recognized tribes along with giving tribes actual sovereignty. $5 indians need not apply. Hold on there partner, why should you get yours *first*? Haven't the Natives been waiting long enough? Get in line. You can get yours out of whatever is left. (Hint it will be nothing) Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 20:06
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Talmonis posted:Electing a democratic socialist wouldn't start a civil war. The degree of "politically unpopular" is a gap the size of the grand canyon. So you're saying that even Sanders supporters would revolt against the government if reparations came to pass? Interesting. I don't see how it's much farther to say "let's give more money to poor people" and add to that with "let's give more money to poor people, especially poor black people". It's weird to assume that when we acknowledge the racial component of economic inequality that suddenly economic equality is a nonstarter. I dunno, I also think that claiming "I'm colorblind" is just a cop out.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:07
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Yeah, it's a shame that people are setting traps for Sanders asking him politically loaded questions. The man's got a presidential campaign to run, he doesn't have time for this nonsense. FTFY Popular Thug Drink posted:As TNC pointed out in the article, it's ridiculous that people are saying reparations is "politically unpopular" when he's running as a literal socialist. Race and ideology really aren't comparable. You can be black and be socialist and still get all the nuances of distinction whenever discrimination comes your way. Even I can find something more practical than whatever horseshit TNC proposed: Kill all racists, no exceptions.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:08
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JeffersonClay posted:We already have the first three, although we should improve the programs. Does it matter that the programs target the poor regardless of race? They are still, at the aggregate, a transfer of wealth from the (predominantly white) rich to the (predominantly non-white) poor. I agree about the landmarks and apologies, and while symbols are important, I'm not sure they're as important as money. The issue here is that though this is good on it's face and should absolutely be done, disenfranchised black poor are worse off, and require even more effort to assist due to the systemic racisim that has gone on basically forever, and should receive it. It's not that hard a concept to give more where more is needed.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:08
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Not a Step posted:This only applies if you think Bernie is running a dishonest campaign to begin with and doesn't actually believe UHC is achievable with any amount of work. In that case promise everything you can because you're never going to achieve any of it, you're just pushing the base (and the only *real* candidate, HRC) left. If, instead, Bernie believes UHC will be a Herculean task that will consume all political capital and effort for years to come then ignoring reparations as a divisive distraction is the correct response. Well white America does have a history of making black people wait in the back so we can be patient
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Jan 20, 2016 20:10
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Not a Step posted:This only applies if you think Bernie is running a dishonest campaign to begin with and doesn't actually believe UHC is achievable with any amount of work. In that case promise everything you can because you're never going to achieve any of it, you're just pushing the base (and the only *real* candidate, HRC) left. If, instead, Bernie believes UHC will be a Herculean task that will consume all political capital and effort for years to come then ignoring reparations as a divisive distraction is the correct response. at some point in history, carthaginian atrocities might have been roughly on a par with visigothic atrocities. Popular Thug Drink posted:So you're saying that even Sanders supporters would revolt against the government if reparations came to pass? Interesting. it's much farther from an image perspective. Have you tried explaining privilege to any member of the precariat, let alone a white one?
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Jan 20, 2016 20:10
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:FTFY https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ I am a racist, and you almost certainly are too. But a purposeful rather than instinctive racist? That's the problem. And also much harder to test for. e:poo poo, it's the subtitle of this subforum
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Jan 20, 2016 20:11
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:Race and ideology really aren't comparable. You can be black and be socialist and still get all the nuances of distinction whenever discrimination comes your way. Racial discrimination is ideology, especially if someone's unwilling to acknowledge the role that race plays in economic inequality. Which is a completely weird position for an ostensible supporter of the proletariat to place themselves in. Dead Cosmonaut posted:Even I can find something more practical than whatever horseshit TNC proposed: Kill all racists, no exceptions. How do you define a racist? What if someone's father was 1/4 racist?
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Jan 20, 2016 20:12
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It seems pretty easy to determine who would be "black enough" to get reparations - just look at anyone that identifies as black. Yeah you'd see some idiots try to do so after the fact, but it's pretty easy to verify if they've always identified as black or not.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:13
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Popular Thug Drink posted:So you're saying that even Sanders supporters would revolt against the government if reparations came to pass? Interesting. Absolutely not. Though I certainly can't speak for many of them, due to the whole reddit contingent. Though remember, about half the country are Republicans, who are already itching for a war as it is. Telling them that "we're coming for your money to give to black people." would send them into violence. But Coates specifies that it must be done to the exclusion of whites to be reparations. (Unless I'm entirely misremembering that massive bastard of a well written article). That is bullshit, as poor folks need help regardless, and making GBS threads on poor whites out of some kind of revenge is a poor idea. Colorblind is bad, yes.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:13
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computer parts posted:It seems pretty easy to determine who would be "black enough" to get reparations - just look at anyone that identifies as black. Yeah you'd see some idiots try to do so after the fact, but it's pretty easy to verify if they've always identified as black or not. Again, wait your turn in line behind the Natives and those who identify as Natives and then you can have some of whatever is left. Reparations for everyone, forever.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:14
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computer parts posted:It seems pretty easy to determine who would be "black enough" to get reparations - just look at anyone that identifies as black. Yeah you'd see some idiots try to do so after the fact, but it's pretty easy to verify if they've always identified as black or not. if western welfare states can be made politically unpopular enough to deconstruct because a few hundred would be fraudsters a year make the tabloid news, how do we even start with a *technically racist* welfare scheme (reparations) that might come up against more like Rachel Dolezal? That's why I find myself talking about control groups of racists looking at both real and placebo welfare applicants to try and measure privilege! Dystopic and insane.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:15
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Were there complaints when we gave compensation to Japanese Americans who were interred?
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Jan 20, 2016 20:15
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Not a Step posted:Again, wait your turn in line behind the Natives and those who identify as Natives and then you can have some of whatever is left. Reparations for everyone, forever. We can do the same with Native Americans.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:16
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Well if a handful of hypothetical edge case people might abuse the system, it's better to let black people languish in poverty and oppression.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:16
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His Purple Majesty posted:Were there complaints when we gave compensation to Japanese Americans who were interred? Yes, although not by progressives for some strange reason.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:16
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Talmonis posted:Absolutely not. Though I certainly can't speak for many of them, due to the whole reddit contingent. Though remember, about half the country are Republicans, who are already itching for a war as it is. Telling them that "we're coming for your money to give to black people." would send them into violence. I think the general argument for race in inequality goes something like "There are systems that disenfranchise the poor. There are additional systems which specifically disenfranchise the nonwhite poor. Reparations is anything that addresses the latter more than the former" which is something Sanders can say and support without losing any substantial support or gaining any detractors, in my opinion. I mean I don't think any serious presidential contender has been able to admit that black poor and white poor in America are not the same poor.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:16
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I propose a literal paper bag test to determine reparations status.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:17
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His Purple Majesty posted:Right after we get ours we will institute the same program for members of recognized tribes along with giving tribes actual sovereignty. $5 indians need not apply. JeffersonClay posted:We already have the first three, although we should improve the programs. Does it matter that the programs target the poor regardless of race? They are still, at the aggregate, a transfer of wealth from the (predominantly white) rich to the (predominantly non-white) poor. I agree about the landmarks and apologies, and while symbols are important, I'm not sure they're as important as money. Popular Thug Drink posted:I don't see how it's much farther to say "let's give more money to poor people" and add to that with "let's give more money to poor people, especially poor black people". It's weird to assume that when we acknowledge the racial component of economic inequality that suddenly economic equality is a nonstarter. Popular Thug Drink posted:So you're saying that even Sanders supporters would revolt against the government if reparations came to pass? Interesting.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:17
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blackguy32 posted:I at the very least thing that there should be a federal investigation and research into it. At the very least we are owed that and I think Ta-nehisi agrees. Yeah, if the discussion is going to be focused on Coates, it seems incomplete to skip to talking about what reparations would look like without discussing what he calls for in the original reparations article: quote:Broach the topic of reparations today and a barrage of questions inevitably follows: Who will be paid? How much will they be paid? Who will pay? But if the practicalities, not the justice, of reparations are the true sticking point, there has for some time been the beginnings of a solution. For the past 25 years, Congressman John Conyers Jr., who represents the Detroit area, has marked every session of Congress by introducing a bill calling for a congressional study of slavery and its lingering effects as well as recommendations for “appropriate remedies.” I think Sanders could've engaged with Coates and offered some lukewarm support for that idea (which is a good one) without sounding like he actually supports reparations.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:17
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computer parts posted:We can do the same with Native Americans. I honestly don't think that ledger could ever be balanced. Unless a continent the size of Europe or South America just suddenly appears with no human claim to it that we can give them.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:17
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Racial discrimination is ideology, especially if someone's unwilling to acknowledge the role that race plays in economic inequality. Which is a completely weird position for an ostensible supporter of the proletariat to place themselves in. Racism probably precedes pretty much any and all political ideology. It goes beyond just a framework on thought. We had slaves before we had a written language. As for the socialist angle, they think race is usually a distraction created by the capitalist class to keep the proletarian constantly distracted in face of their own poverty. Even in the context of American racism, it still kind of makes sense. Popular Thug Drink posted:How do you define a racist? What if someone's father was 1/4 racist? Go after anyone and everyone who openly opposes complete and total equality. There can be no distinctions.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:19
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Talmonis posted:I honestly don't think that ledger could ever be balanced. Unless a continent the size of Europe or South America just suddenly appears with no human claim to it that we can give them. We could encourage Europe to give back some of their wealth too, since it really is mostly their fault. (A lot of the slavery stuff was Europe's fault too but reparations for black people usually derive from the post-Civil War environment)
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Jan 20, 2016 20:19
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It's reasonable to expect a contiguous legal entity like the United States to bear responsibility for damages it caused in its past. That's the easy part. The sort of logistics involved with directly compensating descendants of victims would be horribly Kafkaesque, as the proposals for identifying claimants are showing. It would be even worse with Native Americans, even just going off registered "recognized" tribal rolls, which is already a nightmare
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Jan 20, 2016 20:22
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computer parts posted:We could encourage Europe to give back some of their wealth too, since it really is mostly their fault. As long as we're talking the remaining monarchies/nobility's wealth who all that poo poo went to, and not the people themselves via taxation, absolutely.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:22
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