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So let me demonstrate my point with a contrast: I don't think responsibility should be taken by anyone alive for anyone who is dead. I do not think anyone should see themselves as part of some historical process, everyone is just a person. If you're a racist, you're going to disagree with that, because you've invented a fictional community based on 'race' (however poorly defined), that you project forwards and backwards. There's plenty of non-racist ways to do that exact same projection, which I don't dispute. What I do dispute is your assumption that, just because you ask Americans to 'reckon with their history', that they will necessarily interpret that in the way you want them to. At the extreme end, you'll get dickheads answering "actually slavery was good, I accept responsibility because I don't see the problem", but you'll have a vast spectrum of bullshit, which is kind of like what we already have. That is a potential danger of asserting identity as a pertinent piece of information w.r.t morality. My way is better, it can't fail. But you don't seem to respond to poo poo like that /\/\, because you still only want to do what, in the best case scenario, amounts to nit-picking. What do you have to gain here? I'll be honest, I'm here because I like talking about this poo poo, topics like this have a lot of other topics you can broach in a specific context - what is justice, what is law, what is fairness, etc. It's a good way for me to test my own opinions, rhetoric, etc, but I mean it's also just interesting. You clearly have an interest in this topic, you also clearly want to kind of 'shut me up' here (not a bad thing for a debate to have, hell that's part of the fun). But I'm not sure you're...like...trying? Like I honestly just don't feel threatened by anything you've said yet.
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Feb 7, 2016 15:22
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rudatron posted:So let me demonstrate my point with a contrast: I don't think responsibility should be taken by anyone alive for anyone who is dead. That's fine, because that's not what's being talked about. quote:I do not think anyone should see themselves as part of some historical process, everyone is just a person. Depends on your definition of 'historical process'. Obviously, if the 'historical process' is that you're wealthy because of something that happened in history and another person is poor because of that same event, then that does matter. If nothing else, it is a fact: it is simply an accident of history that you are wealthy. It's not something you 'deserve', and recognizing that is absolutely key to being a decent human being. quote:What I do dispute is your assumption that, just because you ask Americans to 'reckon with their history', that they will necessarily interpret that in the way you want them to. Good news! I don't assume that. quote:. At the extreme end, you'll get dickheads answering "actually slavery was good, I accept responsibility because I don't see the problem", but you'll have a vast spectrum of bullshit, which is kind of like what we already have. The proposal is to work and change what we already have. Are you just asserting it's impossible, or what? quote:But you don't seem to respond to poo poo like that /\/\, because you still only want to do what, in the best case scenario, amounts to nit-picking. What do you have to gain here? I'll be honest, I'm here because I like talking about this poo poo, topics like this have a lot of other topics you can broach in a specific context - what is justice, what is law, what is fairness, etc. It's a good way for me to test my own opinions, rhetoric, etc, but I mean it's also just interesting. You clearly have an interest in this topic, you also clearly want to kind of 'shut me up' here (not a bad thing for a debate to have, hell that's part of the fun). But I'm not sure you're...like...trying? Like I honestly just don't feel threatened by anything you've said yet. No, man, honestly your arguments are just poo poo. They aren't even arguments. If you offered them in my place of employment or at my university people would just embarrassedly cough and we'd move on. I don't want you to shut up, I want you to stop making horrifically bad arguments based on tendentious redefinitions or an assertion that changing racist attitudes directly is basically impossible.
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Feb 7, 2016 15:29
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So is TNC's soaring rhetoric about how squarely facing our history will lead to a national reckoning that transforms America into a country befitting the highest ideals of its founding fathers just an attempt to make racially-targeted social assistance more palatable? You could probably make the case for a more expansive social safety net for black Americans given the obscene structural inequality and excessive state violence they encounter, without yoking it to some Utopian idea of 'making up for' slavery or the empty signifier of reparations, but I guess it would then be harder to play on white guilt.
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Feb 7, 2016 20:07
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the trump tutelage posted:So is TNC's soaring rhetoric about how squarely facing our history will lead to a national reckoning that transforms America into a country befitting the highest ideals of its founding fathers just an attempt to make racially-targeted social assistance more palatable? No.
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Feb 7, 2016 20:09
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the trump tutelage posted:So is TNC's soaring rhetoric about how squarely facing our history will lead to a national reckoning that transforms America into a country befitting the highest ideals of its founding fathers just an attempt to make racially-targeted social assistance more palatable? You could probably make the case for a more expansive social safety net for black Americans given the obscene structural inequality and excessive state violence they encounter, without yoking it to some Utopian idea of 'making up for' slavery or the empty signifier of reparations, but I guess it would then be harder to play on white guilt. Without guilt, white people will keep discriminating against black people in housing and employment. Or maybe I should say without shame, with each person coming to understand if they have had a role in perpetuating institutional racism.
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Feb 7, 2016 20:12
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I dunno man, that sounds kinda racist. So let me make something very clear, because you seem kind of confused on this: ending racism and discrimination is possible, desirable, and achievable without our lifetimes. The strategy you're using will fail. That's been my message from the start. I'll admit I got a little giddy when you started talking about inherited wealth, and in terms of the unfair advantages wealth and privilege offer, you'll get no argument from me. Absent a total overthrow of capitalism as a system though, that ain't changing, it's foolish to think otherwise. I'm all for socialism as an answer, so you don't have to convince me, but oddly enough that's actually a lot more practical a solution then expecting to 'fix' capitalism. But I can't accept this dodge of yours. You actually are assuming that a reckoning with history is going to fix anything, that's why you're for it. I mean it's not as if we don't know the disadvantages minorities face, we've had a real clear idea for 20+ years. Yet, oddly enough, that knowledge hasn't actually changed anything. You want to change things, you've got to grab power. Build alliances, brings lots of different people together, be goal-oriented, not process-oriented. Or maybe that's just me.
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Feb 8, 2016 08:39
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rudatron posted:Build alliances, brings lots of different people together, be goal-oriented, not process-oriented. Or maybe that's just me. b-b-but my ideological purity 
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Feb 8, 2016 08:48
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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rudatron posted:
Nah, this isn't true.
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Feb 8, 2016 12:49
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Obdicut posted:Nah, this isn't true. e. Specifically, I mean. Not the vague generalities of the TNC article. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 16:52
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we will save the world with positive emotions and good vibrations, you see
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Feb 8, 2016 18:47
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So how would Indian/First Nations reparations work in a world in which they've been granted to black people? Because everyone here is obsessed with talking about slavery reparations, and nothing has been said about reparations to people who have experienced something easily as bad as slavery (possibly worse depending on perspective). Or would they just be expected to suck it up?
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Feb 8, 2016 18:56
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Radbot posted:Or would they just be expected to suck it up? Yeah. This is america, bitch.
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Feb 8, 2016 18:59
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Radbot posted:So how would Indian/First Nations reparations work in a world in which they've been granted to black people? Because everyone here is obsessed with talking about slavery reparations, and nothing has been said about reparations to people who have experienced something easily as bad as slavery (possibly worse depending on perspective).
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Feb 8, 2016 19:07
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Just assuming we're on board with the idea of reparations in the first place, how could a precedent ever be set? How would anyone ever compare what happened to Indians vs. blacks in slavery? Because the moment we do institute reparations for black people, there will be some very, very pissed off (and rightfully so) people whose ancestors have suffered just as much as theirs did.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:16
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a unit of opportunistically-minded oppression is worth three fifths of a unit of racially-minded oppression 
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Feb 8, 2016 20:14
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My road to being arelgious started with rejection of original sin, I think reparations is far more complex than who gets what but the nature of societal responsibilities in itself. I don't think the concept isn't done any favors by making it racially charged. I'm compelled to ponder if there was an intelligence outside of human, be it alien or artificial that somehow you could reasonably put a price on crimes against "humanity" and if they'd find the racial component pedantic. In more broad terms, reparations for crimes against the concept of goodness itself.
RuanGacho fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 20:50
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Obdicut posted:Nah, this isn't true. Obdicut posted:Did you read the Coates article, and notice it's not just about wealth redistribution, but also an acknowledgement of the racial injustice that necessitates it? *Sigh*, disappointing. What the hell are you afraid of? I don't bite, promise. Ah well, I can't force you to do anything, so I guess this is where it ends.
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Feb 9, 2016 02:10
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Should there be a statute of limitations for reparations due to past grievancez? Do the Italians still owe reparations to Mauritanians, for example?
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Feb 9, 2016 05:30
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I, for one, support French reparations to the descendants of all Hugenots. Furthermore, a punitive tax should be levied on the descendants of Genghis Khan to pay restitution for past acts of barbarism commited against Central Asian and Eastern European populations.
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Feb 9, 2016 09:13
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blowfish posted:I, for one, support French reparations to the descendants of all Hugenots. This'll become terribly salient when the descendants of Hugenots have 5 cabs in a row drive away when they try to hail them, driver looking straight at them.
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Feb 9, 2016 09:48
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SedanChair posted:This'll become terribly salient when the descendants of Hugenots have 5 cabs in a row drive away when they try to hail them, driver looking straight at them. hmmm, getting compensated for a thing that's currently going on and punishing the guilty party, it's almost like there's a word for that
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Feb 9, 2016 10:26
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rudatron posted:If you feel that's an adequate response, then there's nothing more I can do. Your literal first post itt was: Neither I nor the story say that simply calling for this will make it happen, though. This is like saying that I think that there should be an anti-discrimination march on washington for equal treatment and equal employment means that that march will automatically work. Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Should there be a statute of limitations for reparations due to past grievancez? Do the Italians still owe reparations to Mauritanians, for example? Statute of limitations are for things that are prosecuted, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
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Feb 9, 2016 10:55
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blowfish posted:hmmm, getting compensated for a thing that's currently going on and punishing the guilty party, it's almost like there's a word for that Yes, Reparations. It's strange how everyone thinks reparations are specifically for events long past when that term was coined when the events were still fresh in everyone's mind.
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Feb 9, 2016 16:04
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By my thinking you'll have an even harder time getting "reparations" if it's based on current issues rather than ancient. It's a lot easier to sell and accept that a lot of people got screwed a long time ago, you ask unrelated people to take responsibility for a jackass racist down the road and you're going to have some problems.
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Feb 10, 2016 01:08
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Pook Good Mook posted:By my thinking you'll have an even harder time getting "reparations" if it's based on current issues rather than ancient. It's a lot easier to sell and accept that a lot of people got screwed a long time ago, you ask unrelated people to take responsibility for a jackass racist down the road and you're going to have some problems. (It's also the one example for where I'm convinced reparations were appropriate. )
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Feb 10, 2016 01:40
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Pook Good Mook posted:By my thinking you'll have an even harder time getting "reparations" if it's based on current issues rather than ancient. It's a lot easier to sell and accept that a lot of people got screwed a long time ago, you ask unrelated people to take responsibility for a jackass racist down the road and you're going to have some problems. Why won't moderate whites denounce extremists?
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Feb 10, 2016 01:44
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Pook Good Mook posted:It's a lot easier to sell and accept that a lot of people got screwed a long time ago, Rudatron and co seem to disagree with that.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:58
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computer parts posted:Rudatron and co seem to disagree with that. There are those, and I would numerate myself among them that the concept of ancestral sin is as abhorent as aristocratic rights to power. It is a divinely inspired right for every child to have every opportunity to succeed and pursue happiness as.they see fit. The fact that there has been incalculable damage done to racially segmented communities cannot be righted by mere economics or prayers or speeches or the return of all subjugated lands and peoples. There are children being denied that same liberty as we speak, it must stop. There is no righting what has been done. I can pretend this is a considered and nuanced view but I'm sure theres some cosmic and punitive revenge required for this injustice that makes this a small world view and not good enough. I cannot absolve myself of Adams sins according to most Christians either. I am for a better world anyway.
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Feb 10, 2016 08:30
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RuanGacho posted:There are those, and I would numerate myself among them that the concept of ancestral sin is as abhorent as aristocratic rights to power. It is a divinely inspired right for every child to have every opportunity to succeed and pursue happiness as.they see fit. The fact that there has been incalculable damage done to racially segmented communities cannot be righted by mere economics or prayers or speeches or the return of all subjugated lands and peoples. There are children being denied that same liberty as we speak, it must stop. It's very strange that this is only applicable to racial issues. Like I don't think anyone would have qualms with saying the rich dude should give back some of his money because his ancestors made it off the backs of workers. You (the white people reading this) do objectively benefit from the racial divisions and strife that has been ongoing for this nation's history, just as much as the rich guy benefits from the history of his ancestors.
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Feb 10, 2016 20:29
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computer parts posted:It's very strange that this is only applicable to racial issues. Like I don't think anyone would have qualms with saying the rich dude should give back some of his money because his ancestors made it off the backs of workers. Really? You don't? Because I don't think I've met a single person in my entire life outside of this particular sub-forum that wouldn't have lots of qualms.
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Feb 10, 2016 20:33
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Jarmak posted:Really? You don't? Because I don't think I've met a single person in my entire life outside of this particular sub-forum that wouldn't have lots of qualms. I'm talking about this forum.
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Feb 10, 2016 20:34
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Jarmak posted:Really? You don't? Because I don't think I've met a single person in my entire life outside of this particular sub-forum that wouldn't have lots of qualms. You must hang out with a lot of people who are cool with sweatshops.
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Feb 10, 2016 20:34
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computer parts posted:It's very strange that this is only applicable to racial issues. Like I don't think anyone would have qualms with saying the rich dude should give back some of his money because his ancestors made it off the backs of workers. I mean I would suggest that the reason the rich man should be taxed is because that's where the money is, and if all human labour is equally valuable then so everyone should receive an equal share of the proceeds from it. Ancestry doesn't really come into it as much as that's simply where the wealth went and still is, and because of how money works you have to take it off someone to give it to someone else. It's not a desire to punish but simply that you must take from the rich if you want to give to the poor. The exact same principle is entirely applicable to racial inequality, as the benefits of racial inequality are heavily on the side of white people then necessarily the tangible benefits (wealth) must be taken from them to be given to those without. So basically I am 100% for taxing the poo poo out of rich white fuckers. As for things like social inequality you can't really take that off people and give it to others, it's rather more intangible, so that's going to have to come from an equal economic basis and probably a whole bunch of laws and propaganda. But I don't really see a concept of ancestry really being necessary or helpful, sins of the father is a stupid idea. And I don't really think it's required in order to say "yes, racial inequality is rife and wrong, so let's devote our efforts to righting it, with money and laws." OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 10, 2016 |
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Feb 10, 2016 20:36
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computer parts posted:I'm talking about this forum. Okay well that's still silly, there's plenty of people even here that would disagree with that.
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Feb 10, 2016 20:36
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OwlFancier posted:But I don't really see a concept of ancestry really being necessary or helpful, sins of the father is a stupid idea. And I don't really think it's required in order to say "yes, racial inequality is rife and wrong, so let's devote our efforts to righting it, with money and laws." I'm not actually advocating for "sins of the father", that's what some people are coming up with to deny that they benefit from (specifically) being white. Actually the really funny part is that that guy says he rejected "sins of the father" because it's what religious people do, when rejection of that is explicitly something that Jesus did.
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Feb 10, 2016 20:43
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computer parts posted:I'm not actually advocating for "sins of the father", that's what some people are coming up with to deny that they benefit from (specifically) being white.
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Feb 10, 2016 20:46
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Everyone talking about sins of the father: do you think the American government, which would be paying/implementing any reparations program, belongs solely to white people?
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Feb 10, 2016 21:18
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Jarmak posted:Really? You don't? Because I don't think I've met a single person in my entire life outside of this particular sub-forum that wouldn't have lots of qualms. you should move out of your parents' basement in galt's gulch this is a silly but real attempt at reparations: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/03/08/a_new_app_and_tax_calculate_how_much_money_white_male_privilege_is_worth.html this is very pacific northwest: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/04/reparations-website-race-white-privilege-natasha-marin "Posts on the site include offers of childcare, tarot reading" http://www.reparations.me/ ~~the sharing economy~~ really is all the worst bits of communism. but I'll probably sign up if they incorporate the admin of the site/register and get inspected as a charity stephenfry fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Aug 6, 2016 |
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Aug 6, 2016 01:20
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the trump tutelage posted:given the obscene structural inequality and excessive state violence they encounter. Do you have any data on this? I mean, I know we get lots of sensationalized news stories about unarmed blacks being shot by cops, but that's not exactly an objective measure. Most of the FBI stats I've seen seem to indicate that blacks aren't actually disproportionately targeted by police in most jurisdictions, that unarmed whites are shot just as often, and that if anything cops are now *less* likely to shoot at a black suspect than a white suspect under identical circumstances because they're afraid of being the next Darren Wilson and the social pariah status that entails. Just to be clear I do support the concept of reparations for slavery to black Americans as a simple matter of principle, but I don't share the assumption (which isn't necessarily being made itt) that reparations would make any kind of significant positive change to modern black lives.
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Aug 12, 2016 14:27
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Secular Humanist posted:Most of the FBI stats I've seen Did you get it from that misleading infographic that misleadingly cites various FBI statistics
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Aug 13, 2016 23:37
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