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My family comes from Native and late 19th century immigrant Irish stock. What percentage of reparations am I responsible for, and what percentage of reparations should I receive?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:13
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| # ¿ May 17, 2024 13:11 |
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Badger of Basra posted:Well Coates' point is that black people deserve reparations not just for slavery, but for their exclusion from the wealth creating systems that allowed white people to improve their lot in life so much over the last century (namely the FHA). I don't think 50 years ago is some sort of mythical past that is impossible to understand. Your 19th century Irish immigrant family probably benefited quite a bit from cheap home loans that black people fundamentally could not access. What about my Native heritage? I personally look white as gently caress but my dad is a dark complected black haired man if that helps. My great-grandfather changed his last name to White, married a white woman and refused to ever speak about his past. My dad never filed for tribal affiliation himself because pretty much the only thing worse than being poor and black in America is being poor and Native on the reservations.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:34
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Popular Thug Drink posted:If your father isn't sufficiently NA to claim affiliation then he's not going to get anything. Like most white people in American claim to be 1/32 Cherokee or whatever. No, he's actually 1/4. My great grandfather was full blooded. I just look white as gently caress because thats the way my genes rolled and I bear a strong resemblance to my moms side. My little brother is just as dark skinned as dad though. E: We never filed for tribal affiliation because theres never been anything we've wanted from the feds and I think it was a point of pride. If we actually start doing race based reparations though I want to be in line for my share. Also the general question on where the Natives should fall in any serious discussion of reparations which I think is something a lot of boosters overlook. Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 19:43
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JeffersonClay posted:Social programs and welfare funded by progressive taxes are reparations. We should just do more of that. To not empty quote, where does Rachel Dolezal fall in all of this?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:47
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Socialists, especially old white socialists from extremely white states, are likely to see people in terms of economic class rather than anything else. While you might wish Bernie was more racially conscious, at some point between getting arrested for protesting segregation and marching with King his switch got rusted stuck on ECONOMIC INEQUALITY STUMP SPEECH. Hes at least internally consistent on what he thinks is the best way forward and doesnt blithely nod for the cameras on every topic.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:53
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His Purple Majesty posted:Yes we should get reperations and it should come in the form of direct payments, low interest loans to start viable businesses, reduced cost of public university, removal of all confederate land marks, and an offcial binding apology for slavery, jim crow, the black codes, cointelpro, and economic deprivation. Anything less does not interest me. How much of your reparations are you going to give to Natives though for all the land theft and the current abysmal nature of the reservation system?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:56
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Badger of Basra posted:Well he's running for president of the United States in 2016, so he'd be well served by gaining a little racial consciousness. I hope for the same thing, although I'm not sure how much of a difference it would really make running against a Clinton. Maybe in the national? MLK posted:"I've seen my dream shattered as I've walked the streets of Chicago and see Negroes, young men and women, with a sense of utter hopelessness because they can't find any jobs. ... I've seen my dream shattered as I've been through Appalachia, and I've seen my white brothers along with Negroes living in poverty. And I'm concerned about white poverty as much as I'm concerned about Negro poverty." White people shouldn't quote MLK to serve their own selfish white supremacist interests
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Jan 20, 2016 20:00
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His Purple Majesty posted:Literally destroy America and let the entire nation burn to the ground so we may dance in its dying embers
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Jan 20, 2016 20:02
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Popular Thug Drink posted:As TNC pointed out in the article, it's ridiculous that people are saying reparations is "politically unpopular" when he's running as a literal socialist. This only applies if you think Bernie is running a dishonest campaign to begin with and doesn't actually believe UHC is achievable with any amount of work. In that case promise everything you can because you're never going to achieve any of it, you're just pushing the base (and the only *real* candidate, HRC) left. If, instead, Bernie believes UHC will be a Herculean task that will consume all political capital and effort for years to come then ignoring reparations as a divisive distraction is the correct response. His Purple Majesty posted:Right after we get ours we will institute the same program for members of recognized tribes along with giving tribes actual sovereignty. $5 indians need not apply. Hold on there partner, why should you get yours *first*? Haven't the Natives been waiting long enough? Get in line. You can get yours out of whatever is left. (Hint it will be nothing) Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 20:06
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computer parts posted:It seems pretty easy to determine who would be "black enough" to get reparations - just look at anyone that identifies as black. Yeah you'd see some idiots try to do so after the fact, but it's pretty easy to verify if they've always identified as black or not. Again, wait your turn in line behind the Natives and those who identify as Natives and then you can have some of whatever is left. Reparations for everyone, forever.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:14
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His Purple Majesty posted:Were there complaints when we gave compensation to Japanese Americans who were interred? Probably, because people are always terrible. I dont have an issue with it because it was an event centered in time whose victims were easy to identify because of, you know, the internment. Repayment wouldn't have required the dismantling or radical upheaval of the entire social fabric of America in such a way as to plunge *everyone* into debt and destruction the way it would to attempt to repay a massive demographic for hundreds of years of abuse. Popular Thug Drink posted:I think the general argument for race in inequality goes something like "There are systems that disenfranchise the poor. There are additional systems which specifically disenfranchise the nonwhite poor. Reparations is anything that addresses the latter more than the former" which is something Sanders can say and support without losing any substantial support or gaining any detractors, in my opinion. All systems suck for the poor because socioeconomic status is a better indicator of outcome than race alone (for children, which is admittedly my single issue focus most of the time). Being black and poor is certainly considerably worse than being poor and white, but being merely black is still better than being poor and white. Your definition of reparations would either target the least bad parts of poverty or just be completely ineffective.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:23
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I disagree. It's well known that there are still many economic disadvantages to being black in America, like hiring disparities, lower likelihood of being promoted, environmental racism, discrimination in housing, etc. Looking at general outcomes and not hypothetical black man with X net worth vs. hypothetical white man with Y net worth seems like a more useful way to determine the general advantage of whiteness. Fair enough. I can respect that position, and in aggregate its probably true because poverty and black go hand in hand together so often that its probably impossible to disentangle the two in the wild world of the job market. Still doesn't significantly change my stance that programs aimed at poverty are not only easier to implement but more likely to have positive benefit than programs aimed at 'blackness'. A better effort at policy enforcement could be made though, because I do agree many anti-poverty measures get selectively implemented in (relatively) wealthier, generally white neighborhoods while black communities are left out in the cold. Would you agree anti-poverty measures with stringent oversight and enforcement to safeguard against unequal implementation would be a decent compromise? stephenfry posted:I started this thread expressly leaving that possibility open. We're being eliminative, it seems. I personally don't need a fall guy to shout at for proposing something difficult to do, though I worry that's due to intellectual laziness. This would be for the best, because direct cash transfers have all kinds of issues with shitheads talking about welfare cheats mixed in with legitimate issues like predatory lending based on guaranteed income and it never works out well.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:35
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His Purple Majesty posted:Maybe if we didnt waste money on a jet that doesnt work, an embassy the size of the vatican, giving money to Israel so they can genocide brown people and having a neverending drug war im sure the government could find two nickels to rub together.  But I'd make you spend the money on education, preschool and healthcare
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Jan 20, 2016 20:36
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Popular Thug Drink posted:IMO he missed an opportunity to spin the exceedingly vague concept of reparations as this rather than assuming it was somehow distinct from his general economic platform and then distancing himself from it. I get the distinct feeling Mr. Sanders didn't really have a comprehensive plan for spinning reparations at his fingertips when Mr. Coates decided to call that day. Stinky_Pete posted:The thing is, why has nobody asked Clinton the same thing? Maybe then it won't sound so much like a blaring targeted character assassination based on an inherently nebulous gotcha. The questioner presented reparations as something not contained within Sanders' platform, so that precludes it from meaning anything but a (in my opinion, uncouth) one-time cash payout. Clinton was asked. She made a few breezy references to BLM and said that volunteer work was very important and then moved on. No one cares though because no one expects anything from her. The Kingfish posted:If I'm not mistaken, he makes the argument that black poverty has a different root than white poverty. Black poverty has *generational* roots. Its deep down in a way white poverty just isnt in most of the country. Other minorities don't have nearly the same problem because they usually have strong cultural ties that build support networks to help members of their own minority out of poverty, like Cubans or Poles or whatever. The worst thing about black poverty is that by the time a black kid hits adulthood the are already incredibly far behind and likely to just perpetuate the cycle. To 'fix' black poverty you need to save black kids, the earlier the better, and recognize its not going to bear any fruit for many, many years. Thats not endorsing abandoning black adults or saying they are the cause of their own poverty but handing a free ride at college to someone the education system basically abandoned in third grade isn't going to suddenly fix black poverty.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:46
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His Purple Majesty posted:Because every black person instictually must spend all their money on spinning rims, a copy of madden, and watermelon flavored fried chicken right? No, because Id keep the money at the federal level and turn lovely planes into preschool subsidies. But thanks for the knee jerk racism!
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Jan 20, 2016 20:47
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Talmonis posted:Poor people of all races spend a lot of money on stupid, predatory poo poo. My idiot sister is a prime example, for spending the tax refund they received on a new tattoo instead of needed repairs for the car they use. Programs that provide specific assistance are better. Hey hey this is a lovely line of argument that will not end well. I like federal programs because they can help build facilities where no facilities existed previously. It is difficult for a community to convince a preschool or clinic operator to set up shop and that demand for services will materialize after they open. It is significantly easier to lure them there with federal dollars.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:52
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Talmonis posted:Such as re-evaluating home values? Honestly if you fix schooling you'll fix housing values in all but the densest cities. School quality is the single most decisive factor in self selected segregation and property values. computer parts posted:There are issues early which prevent later fixes, but the structural issues occur along multiple points in someone's life. These points might include: As you (and I) say though the early issues can hamper or prevent fixes for the later issues. I would be more in favor of early childhood measures such as universal pre-k, free and reduced breakfast/lunch/dinner or school busing than I would be for college affirmative action or employment quotas. I wouldnt be against the latter mind you, but Id certainly fight a lot harder for the former and would place them first on any list of equality policy initiatives
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Jan 20, 2016 20:57
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Badger of Basra posted:Black people probably do deserve compensation for things that were done to black people more than white people need compensation for those things. It maaaaay not be the greatest ground in the world to say that things born out by facts are not, in fact, racist. Maybe argue on the definition of racism as applied to this setting. That might be safer territory.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:05
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Talmonis posted:You're putting the horse before the cart. It's the home values declining due solely to black families moving in that drove school funding downward. Thus causing schools to become poo poo. Oh yeah, I didnt explain that very well at all. Just shifting funds between districts doesnt work because the whites will abandon black districts, move to the best schools available and price black families out of entering. If somehow black families do start moving into the 'good' district again white families will just flee again, and they tend to have greater economic mobility so blacks will never catch up. It is all about the school system though. Whites move into 'good' districts and flee 'bad' ones. Blacks get left behind and concentrated into ever shittier areas. Check out Tiebout sorting. I'd gladly advocate for some kind of busing program like during Desegregation to force racial homogeneity across cities so there was no where to flee, no way to set up enclaves short of leaving town altogether. And then you have a black ecosystem you can directly target with federal dollars with less worry about uneven enforcement. Well, except for all the non-racial reasons there are to misappropriate funds, but you can't solve human nature all at once.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:17
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Berke Negri posted:You know that the debate over reparations has been going long before tumblr existed, right? The horse existed long before saddles my friend
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Jan 20, 2016 22:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Hmm, reading it again, I might have read that in a slightly uncharitable way, reading the "generational effect" as being special to black people, rather than it simply being of a different character than generational effects among white people. Generational effects are extremely common in black communities, which have often been ignored and crushed by decades if not centuries of neglect and discrimination. I've said it before, but black generational poverty differs from other races on the whole. Other minority groups form communities around shared heritage and language that provide support networks and paths out of poverty. A Hispanic community may look poor, but, from my experience, they will have far better community organization and identity that gives them more resilience and opportunity than income alone might suggest. Poor white communities band together in blaming others, like, for instance, poor blacks for their troubles and don't face the same legal and enforcement hurdles black and minority communities face so white poverty tends to not be as deep as income would suggest either. Black communities though are just absolutely crushed by not only various kinds of discrimination, but a generational lack of social and education capital that means they often wouldn't have the internal means to rise up even if they had a legal framework and outside support to do so. Basically black generational poverty is the worst and its malignant in a way other races typically don't have experience with. For all that though being poor and Native is still worse than poor and black, so reparations for Natives first please.
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Jan 21, 2016 00:33
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Woolie Wool posted:I really don't know what the gently caress (white) people should do about this, only that whatever it is, it will not get done. Honestly? Give up on reparations as far too divisive, unrealistic, unachievable and perhaps even vindictive to ever come to pass and instead focus that energy into advocating for social reforms that would serve much the same purpose but could conceivably have a political future. Unless slamming your head against a wall and lamenting the unfair nature of the world instead of actually doing things is your thing I guess. The world does need some smart people with vision working on what seem to be intractable and impossible problems in order for someone to come up with a solution. I just generally feel its better to light a candle than to curse the darkness, even if the candle seems wholly inadequate.
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Jan 21, 2016 02:34
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BlueBlazer posted:A set of gov programs without qualifiers would be a great start. I would be super on board with this. So fun story time. I went to an elite liberal arts college and took a bunch of poverty and policy economics classes there because its my interest area. When one of my policy classes went over the mechanics of TANF and SNAP I had classmates - wealthy white and asian liberals who are supposedly the future of policy in America - no poo poo argue *against* more unrestricted cash transfers to the poor because they legitimately bought into the myth of pervasive welfare cheats and boozehounds. They were all in favor of tightly restricted budget categories and limited options out of smug paternalism over how dumb and prone to vice the poors were. As the only person in that class with any tangential experience with food stamps (my aunt was on them when I was a kid) I lambasted them. Sadly, no one stood and clapped and I just cemented my position as the weird old outsider. I do not consider the existence of some welfare cheats even worth considering in a larger framework. gently caress it. If you steal $10,000 in services a year you're still not even a rounding error in what corporations get as tax write off kickbacks. Blanket benefits to cover basic needs would be cool and good, although it would probably cause a poo poo ton of economic side effects (and would still greatly advantage white households, which are generally two adults, over black households).
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Jan 21, 2016 02:52
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rudatron posted:The problem isn't with theory, it's with implementation. If you think people in this thread want to deal with implementation in any capacity you may be in the wrong place. Before you waste time discussing how to successfully target any social program to only the population of interest you need to define the population of interest. Good luck defining who counts as black for the purposes of an exclusionary social policy for poor people. People mainly seem to want to avoid engaging on details and implementation and talk about the moral dimensions and broad scale impossibilities of reparations.
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Jan 21, 2016 07:06
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What if we merely made blacks poor, instead of crushing generational poverty from which their kids will never escape, forever and forever? I realize it's not much but a good place to start would be the school systems and providing as much support as possible through free pre-k, busing, more free meals and more direct cash infusion into the worst schools. Maybe try to make schools locuses of black communities. Then add more supports like full time counselors, AP exam tutors, assistance with navigating the college application maze, and generally try to salvage a generation. Families would still be poor at the end of it, but it wouldn't be the educational black hole of previous generations. It's not much, but it's a start. It'd even be racially focused while not having to explicitly say it, because you just pick the worst performing schools and it's basically the same thing.
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Jan 28, 2016 23:12
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