The American Opioid Epidemic 20XX: Dropping the H-Bomb

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The American Opioid Epidemic 20XX: Dropping the H-Bomb

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Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

pangstrom posted:

Yeah, this is a place where, from the outside, people's imaginations usually fail them. People think it's like not eating a cookie or working on a Saturday or something.

Yeah, before going through all this I would have been literally incapable of imagining how terrible addiction/withdrawal is. It's the sort of feeling that a normal person wouldn't even be capable of experiencing during their lifetime; the experience can only be reproduced specifically by withdrawal itself. Describing the symptoms just makes it sound like some combination of the flu and insomnia. I once almost died of Scarlet Fever as a kid*, and that was a million times better than withdrawal.

It's frustrating, because many people just think "well, you have to man up and deal with it" and compare it to stuff like quitting cigarettes, but it's just not the sort of thing a normal person can will themselves to do. The very idea of experiencing withdrawal just makes me mentally curl up into a fetal position, and putting myself in a situation where I would experience more than a few hours (much less multiple days) of withdrawal is basically equivalent to someone trying to will themselves to jump off of a building or cut off their own arm; your brain just screams at you "BAD IDEA DO NOT DO THIS". And after multiple years, it just gets harder, because you become more and more familiar with the feeling and more afraid as a result.

The one "upside" to opioid abuse becoming more well-known is that hopefully attitudes towards addiction will change. Addiction is bad enough by itself, but it's even worse knowing that most people would think worse of you for it. At least people with other serious diseases know that they have most peoples' support and won't be condemned for it.

*though once admitted to the ER it was cured super fast since I think Scarlet Fever just needs some antibiotics

# ? Feb 29, 2016 19:16

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 23:23

the great deceiver: Sep 23, 2003; why the feds worried bout me clockin on this corner/
when there's politicians out here gettin popped in arizona

Hardawn posted:

I wouldn't really consider AA yo be an indoctrination program. Are there groups that become more zealous than others? Probably. But the actual steps are more self reflective than the pray the gay away approach

I didn't find that AA/NA were trying to indoctrinate religion so much as they were trying to indoctrinate you with their own skewed, cult-like understanding of addiction.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 20:34

The_Book_Of_Harry: Apr 30, 2013

Here's a cross post from the addiction and recovery thread:

The_Book_Of_Harry posted:

After years of active addiction, 3x28-day rehab (2008, 2011, 2014), a couple outpatient programs, hundreds of *A meetings, hundreds of hours reading, writing, studying and reflecting, I finally embarked on a winning strategy that is working for me.

Consequences never seemed to make me sober. Dropping-out of college after 3 years, losing desirable restaurant jobs, generally alienating wonderful family and friends, bouncing from Ithaca to Nashville to Knoxville back to Nashville, DUIs, possession charges, probation, lockup, psych wards, halfway houses, poverty, couch-surfing, dumpster diving, the rare petty theft... And I couldn't loving figure it out. I never had a month clean outside of jail.

In desperation, I moved to Atlanta in late 2014 and enrolled in a methadone-assisted treatment program, complete with a personal addiction counselor I would see weekly, at that time.

But even though I had moved away from most of my old associations, old habits die hard. I dated a junky, lived with more junkies or in shady hotels and neighborhoods until mid-2015. I had finally cleaned-up my heroin habit, but I was still drinking constantly and occasionally smoking/shooting crack.

By late summer, I had quit/lost my restaurant job, moved back into a space with an ex-girlfriend, and saw an opportunity to take a long, hard look at everything. It was round #toomany with this cycle of binging/burning-out/desperation. I had a roughly a month worth of money before I had to work again, so long as I embraced my poverty.

I hit the books and medical studies hard this time. I went to every meeting at the clinic that I could make. They aren't 12-step, and (for the very first time in my life) people weren't telling me "God or GTFO." I learned to meditate. I did SO MANY worksheets. I found new hobbies. I got healthier. I made work's schedule secondary to my groups' schedule. I found a psychiatrist/psychologist combo with meds that may be helping the depression.

It took a while of getting drunk many nights only to jump back in class the next morning trying to figure-out how to stop saying "gently caress it." But I kept plugging-away. Meditating. Eating better. Going to work. Participating in this very thread.

Soon enough, I had a month straight...in the real world!!! So I just kept-on keeping on. The plan was working. I became a group regular, and fairly popular at that. I developed relationships with several fellow patients and counselors, people I can trust and exchange wisdom and hope. I talk with my father regularly these days, and he's allegedly "proud" of me. Of ME!

This all propelled me to today, where I'm celebrating 6 months of being "sucka free!"

My family is back on my team. I have some quality friends. My support network is spectacular. All throughout every day, I'm interacting with people who want to collaborate toward mutual success.

And I get to be myself, not some loving junky.

I'm so happy there are tears in my eyes.

I was raised in a great home by loving parents, in the good suburbs. I went to prep school and an Ivy, but depression and addiction were stronger than the will to be a citizen. I turned to coke and alcohol in college, continuing and diversifying my vices when I moved back home.

Soon enough, plentiful and cheap oxycodone and oxymorphone were my obsession.

Eventually, heroin became cheaper and more accessible, so it was a no-brainier :whitewater:

to make the switch.

Ugh....

------------------

Legalize.
Heavily regulate.
Treat.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 21:44

Not a Children: Oct 9, 2012; Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Sounds like the method from Infinite Jest works. Just Keep Going.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 21:51

The_Book_Of_Harry: Apr 30, 2013

Beaters posted:

I used to work with lots of docs and medical researchers. This gem came from some random doc several years ago.

On the other side is an advertisement for the instant release capsules.

Lol. I also have a copy of that pen, acquired when I worked for a pharmacy.

-------

Re: suboxone/methadone and impairment

I take 60mg methadone qd, and I feel exactly the same 24/7

There is no high/buzz whatsoever at a maintenance dose for me.

If you offer an addict a choice of a needle full of either dope or buprenorphine/methadone, 997/1000 will choose the dope.

I've injected 32mg of bupe in an hour and felt nothing other than "not in withdrawal" back when I was prescribed 3.5 of the 8mg tablets qd.

When I was opioid-naive, I took a partial bupe tablet and became embarrassingly impaired.

.....

The opioid-maintained addiction patient is similar to the well-maintained psychiatric patient. Sure, we NEED our medicine, but that minor inconvenience literally saves our lives and livelihoods, with a community net benefit.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 22:01

pangstrom: Jan 25, 2003; Wedge Regret

With the AA group stuff you can usually find an OK group if you are in a medium sized town... maybe a large sized town if you are in an area full of folks with worldviews opposed to yours. To pile on a little, though, a lot of groups are toxic not for philosophical reasons but just for generic semi-leaderless group psychological reasons. They get a few strong and terrible personalities who are know-it-alls or 13th steppers (hit on new members) or whatever else.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 01:19

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Watching the Frontline episode on the Opiode epidemic and it's reaffirmed my ~~sociopathic~~ unpopular opinion that these social programs should be offering to put the junkies out of their suffering. Would save everyone involved a lot of pain, time, and money, plus eliminate the huge externalities these people have on the community around them that the documentary apparently didn't care to talk about.

# ? Mar 1, 2016 02:08

rscott: Dec 10, 2009

It would be pretty easy and cheap to put them out of their misery (so to speak) by supplying them with clean, precisely metered opioids, and it would also largely remove the negative externalities you're talking about

# ? Mar 1, 2016 02:21

The_Book_Of_Harry: Apr 30, 2013

Cugel the Clever posted:

Watching the Frontline episode on the Opiode epidemic and it's reaffirmed my ~~sociopathic~~ unpopular opinion that these social programs should be offering to put the junkies out of their suffering. Would save everyone involved a lot of pain, time, and money, plus eliminate the huge externalities these people have on the community around them that the documentary apparently didn't care to talk about.

As a former junky, I can absolutely say that I would have signed-up for something like that. An overdose of opioids/benzos can be manufactured for next to nothing, and it would save communities tons of money.

I don't see assisted suicide as being politically feasible, though.

And most hardline junkies don't really want to die, they just want to find a way to stay high constantly. Protip: it's nearly impossible. Dope always costs exactly as much as you have.

That said, there are huge swaths of addicts who will be nothing but a burden on the system til they die. And treating people who can't or won't change (even when they really want to) gets really expensive.

Even putting everyone on blockers like methadone or bupe only works when people make other lifestyle changes...like attending therapy, shifting to new people, routines, spaces, etc.

The only real answer seems to be legalization and regulation, with easily accessible treatment (I prefer medication and science-based treatments moreso than 12-step/spiritual methods, but they can co-exist).

Jail is expensive and doesn't help. Legal drugs lower prices and reduce external harm. Suicide booths are always an option, I guess. But there should be a psychiatrist and a methadone clinic right next door...

# ? Mar 1, 2016 02:33

Zarin: Nov 11, 2008; I SEE YOU

Cugel the Clever posted:

Watching the Frontline episode on the Opiode epidemic and it's reaffirmed my ~~sociopathic~~ unpopular opinion that these social programs should be offering to put the junkies out of their suffering. Would save everyone involved a lot of pain, time, and money, plus eliminate the huge externalities these people have on the community around them that the documentary apparently didn't care to talk about.

The_Book_Of_Harry posted:

As a former junky, I can absolutely say that I would have signed-up for something like that. An overdose of opioids/benzos can be manufactured for next to nothing, and it would save communities tons of money.

I don't see assisted suicide as being politically feasible, though.

And most hardline junkies don't really want to die, they just want to find a way to stay high constantly. Protip: it's nearly impossible. Dope always costs exactly as much as you have.

That said, there are huge swaths of addicts who will be nothing but a burden on the system til they die. And treating people who can't or won't change (even when they really want to) gets really expensive.

Even putting everyone on blockers like methadone or bupe only works when people make other lifestyle changes...like attending therapy, shifting to new people, routines, spaces, etc.

The only real answer seems to be legalization and regulation, with easily accessible treatment (I prefer medication and science-based treatments moreso than 12-step/spiritual methods, but they can co-exist).

Jail is expensive and doesn't help. Legal drugs lower prices and reduce external harm. Suicide booths are always an option, I guess. But there should be a psychiatrist and a methadone clinic right next door...

Granted, I didn't watch the Frontline episode, but re-reading Cudgel's post, I keep reading it two ways:
1). "Put them out of their suffering" = encourage and facilitate a quick and clean OD
2). "Put them out of their suffering" = make the drugs available for actual prices based on cost (i.e. dirt cheap) and let people just self-medicate if that's what they want to keep doing

Now, enacting 2 will lead to some of 1, even if we don't push people in that direction. But pushing 1 as a matter of course seems ... wasteful, at best, and barbaric at worst.

I mean, there are plenty of high-functioning addicts that do just fine in society already. Some are workaholics, some alcoholics, along with other addictions such as internet, cigarettes, games, caffeine, sex, gambling ... the list goes on.

Personally, I don't see what makes [insert scary drug here] more special than anything else I've listed above. People get addicted to poo poo. So what? Give them the tools to manage it on their own if they want, but provide help to end the addiction if/when they ask. Any other option is as useful as old_man_yells_at_cloud.jpg; good luck railing against human nature. Congrats on all the suffering you'll cause, I hope it makes you sleep better at night.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 20:35

IAMNOTADOCTOR: Sep 26, 2013

Zarin posted:

Granted, I didn't watch the Frontline episode, but re-reading Cudgel's post, I keep reading it two ways:
1). "Put them out of their suffering" = encourage and facilitate a quick and clean OD
2). "Put them out of their suffering" = make the drugs available for actual prices based on cost (i.e. dirt cheap) and let people just self-medicate if that's what they want to keep doing

Now, enacting 2 will lead to some of 1, even if we don't push people in that direction. But pushing 1 as a matter of course seems ... wasteful, at best, and barbaric at worst.

I mean, there are plenty of high-functioning addicts that do just fine in society already. Some are workaholics, some alcoholics, along with other addictions such as internet, cigarettes, games, caffeine, sex, gambling ... the list goes on.

Personally, I don't see what makes [insert scary drug here] more special than anything else I've listed above. People get addicted to poo poo. So what? Give them the tools to manage it on their own if they want, but provide help to end the addiction if/when they ask. Any other option is as useful as old_man_yells_at_cloud.jpg; good luck railing against human nature. Congrats on all the suffering you'll cause, I hope it makes you sleep better at night.

Here's my experience from socialist European country:

Almost all major cities (e.g. 200.000+ pop) have a treatment center in the city. Often these consist of several locations with different functions. In my current 150.000 population city there's a large location where alcohol and drug addicts can visit an addiction medicine doc. This is usually a GP with additional training. On this location there are user areas (separate for alcohol and drugs) where addicts are allowed to bring in their own supply of whatever floats their boat and use them indoors. There's a nurse supervising and making sure there are no products being sold. Crack pipes and lighters are available for 1 euro and the rest of the drug paraphernalia is free (e.g. mesh filters, straws and aluminium foil for crack, post it notes, needles etc.). Everyone is allowed to stay for 30 minutes. They can do this as often as they want. The main purpose of this room is to reduce the burden of drug and alcohol addicts on the rest of the city.

For all the people using heroine there is an option to get free scheduled methadone. There's also a separate group of addicts that keep using heroin next to the methadone that instead get free heroin, they get to use this 1-3 times a day under supervision. Basically these patients have given up on becoming drug free. To me this looked a lot like palliative sedation.

The same location also has facilities like a free barber, laundromat and optional programs to get these long-term addicts to do stuff like cleaning up in the streets or chopping wood to be sold.

A separate location is used for short-term detox of all addicts that want to be treated in an in-patient setting. If the short-term detox is successful they get the option to move for 1-2 months to a long term treatment facility. At every step of the way there is free mental and physical health-care. At any current time 80% of these treatment facilities are occupied by frequent flyer addicts that are re-admitted once a every couple of years. For a lot of these patients there is a strong underlying mental health aspect: I recently saw a patient who was sold to gypsies (her words not mine) by her father when she was 6 and was sold into prostitution at age 16. Got married, stayed clean for 10 years, husband died and she couldn't cope so she relapsed and neglected her children so they were taken away by CPS.

The obvious problem is that the societal costs are still huge (about 40.000 euro per person per year), you cant park your bike anywhere near any of the treatment centers because it will be stolen within in the day (they sell it for 10 euros, which is about what a gram of cocaine costs here) but burglary or robberies are rare.

It's not perfect but I thinks its the best system I've heard of so far, and beats just making it legal and freely available.

# ? Mar 6, 2016 21:35

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

rscott posted:

It would be pretty easy and cheap to put them out of their misery (so to speak) by supplying them with clean, precisely metered opioids, and it would also largely remove the negative externalities you're talking about

Except when they, oh, drive, interact with the public, are responsible for children, or sell a portion of their meds to finance their lifestyles.

# ? Mar 8, 2016 04:46

nigga crab pollock: Mar 26, 2010; by Lowtax

Solkanar512 posted:

So I keep seeing stories about how prescription rates in the US are really high compared to other nations so therefore patients are giant pansies who need to suffer through their pain.

How do we know that pain meds are being prescribed too much rather than other nations simply not caring about pain? It seems rather cruel to tell a patient, "just suck it up, it's only terminal cancer". How much higher are these rates? Are doctors generally giving refills on these automatically? Or does this have to do with the lack of records that cross state lines?

doctors literally don't give a poo poo dude. they will hand you a 15 day script for hydros if you straight up don't look/act like a junkie and have a serious enough problem. hell i had a psychiatrist just hand me a klonopin script even when i was like 'uh are you sure this is a good idea?" most doctors just write scripts for "once daily as needed" so to most people that means one every day, two if u need it. and since these drugs are very quick to form tolerances it ends with people taking way more than what was prescribed and getting addicted - but they still need treatment.

black market precription drugs are usually the massive pile of drugs that patients sell to drug dealers cause they take maybe 10 pills a month and they get prescribed 30 and hey poo poo its free money. the people buying them? the people who ran out of their 30 day script on day 15

nigga crab pollock fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Mar 8, 2016

# ? Mar 8, 2016 06:02

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

nigga crab pollock posted:

doctors literally don't give a poo poo dude. they will hand you a 15 day script for hydros if you straight up don't look/act like a junkie and have a serious enough problem. hell i had a psychiatrist just hand me a klonopin script even when i was like 'uh are you sure this is a good idea?" most doctors just write scripts for "once daily as needed" so to most people that means one every day, two if u need it. and since these drugs are very quick to form tolerances it ends with people taking way more than what was prescribed and getting addicted - but they still need treatment.

black market precription drugs are usually the massive pile of drugs that patients sell to drug dealers cause they take maybe 10 pills a month and they get prescribed 30 and hey poo poo its free money. the people buying them? the people who ran out of their 30 day script on day 15

why not make an app to connect individuals with excess scripts and folk with scripts they cannot afford to fill?

better yet, what about an app to sell your drugs back to pharmacies so that folk on medicare/medicaid with $0 co-pays can make their money selling drugs off to someone other than scummy drug dealers?

# ? Mar 8, 2016 06:17

nigga crab pollock: Mar 26, 2010; by Lowtax

probably because giving those pills to other people is a felony and selling is probably like a double felony

# ? Mar 8, 2016 06:19

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

nigga crab pollock posted:

probably because giving those pills to other people is a felony and selling is probably like a double felony

Manufacturers should be able to buy back their products, in order to re-sell them at a lower price point.

Is it illegal to give away drugs to manufacturers? I don't see how implementing a rewards program like a Japanese pachinko parlour wouldn't help to get drugs off the street while lowering the budget deficit by allowing medicare/medicaid to negotiate for "used" drug prices.

# ? Mar 8, 2016 06:23

Teriyaki Koinku: Nov 25, 2008; Bread! Bread! Bread!

Bread! BREAD! BREAD!

It's pretty insidious how the pharmaceutical industry pushes doctors to over prescribe opioids to patients and then society stigmatizes people who end up addicted and have to keep using in order to avoid withdrawals/seizures/dying. It's an incredibly difficult line to walk once you've started down the path of dependency on pharmaceutical drugs.

# ? Mar 8, 2016 06:34

Grundulum: Feb 28, 2006

My Imaginary GF posted:

Manufacturers should be able to buy back their products, in order to re-sell them at a lower price point.

Is it illegal to give away drugs to manufacturers? I don't see how implementing a rewards program like a Japanese pachinko parlour wouldn't help to get drugs off the street while lowering the budget deficit by allowing medicare/medicaid to negotiate for "used" drug prices.

You're (probably) not serious, but quality control would be a huge issue in a hypothetical pill buyback program.

# ? Mar 8, 2016 06:36

the great deceiver: Sep 23, 2003; why the feds worried bout me clockin on this corner/
when there's politicians out here gettin popped in arizona

My Imaginary GF posted:

Manufacturers should be able to buy back their products, in order to re-sell them at a lower price point.

Is it illegal to give away drugs to manufacturers? I don't see how implementing a rewards program like a Japanese pachinko parlour wouldn't help to get drugs off the street while lowering the budget deficit by allowing medicare/medicaid to negotiate for "used" drug prices.

Hell yeah sign me up for the Purdue rewards program

# ? Mar 8, 2016 06:37

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Grundulum posted:

You're (probably) not serious, but quality control would be a huge issue in a hypothetical pill buyback program.

If you wish for quality prescription drugs, perhaps you should purchase an insurance policy which does not negotiate prices on "used" drugs.

# ? Mar 8, 2016 06:38

rscott: Dec 10, 2009

My Imaginary GF posted:

Except when they, oh, drive, interact with the public, are responsible for children, or sell a portion of their meds to finance their lifestyles.

So just like half of the country conked out on a panoply of pills then

# ? Mar 8, 2016 07:20

nigga crab pollock: Mar 26, 2010; by Lowtax

My Imaginary GF posted:

If you wish for quality prescription drugs, perhaps you should purchase an insurance policy which does not negotiate prices on "used" drugs.

so after you get addicted to hydros you get a mimimum wage job to pay for those hydros but having a part time job makes you lose eligibility for medicade so now u gotta pay for an insurance plan that only buys premium, fresh drugs

ronald reagan's ghost just popped a boner

# ? Mar 8, 2016 09:21

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

My Imaginary GF posted:

If you wish for quality prescription drugs, perhaps you should purchase an insurance policy which does not negotiate prices on "used" drugs.

Libertarian thread is that way.

# ? Mar 8, 2016 10:18

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

My Imaginary GF posted:

why not make an app to connect individuals with excess scripts and folk with scripts they cannot afford to fill?

Congrats you've managed to disrupt "being a drug dealer." You could call it "dealr."

# ? Mar 8, 2016 14:04

The_Book_Of_Harry: Apr 30, 2013

More like MarkR

It's a lot like craigslist, but with more drugs and risk!

# ? Mar 8, 2016 15:04

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

nigga crab pollock posted:

so after you get addicted to hydros you get a mimimum wage job to pay for those hydros but having a part time job makes you lose eligibility for medicade so now u gotta pay for an insurance plan that only buys premium, fresh drugs

ronald reagan's ghost just popped a boner

gee, maybe you should move to a state which expanded medicaid eligability and get the gently caress out of your shithole? One can only help those who help themselves, and those who insist upon living in the south deserve what they get.

I still think that used drugs should be a fremium for a DealR type app. Why the gently caress not disrupt the pharma industry like uber has taxis? What are cities gonna do?

# ? Mar 8, 2016 18:28

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Probably shut the app down and arrest everyone involved for conspiracy.

Remember Silk Road?

# ? Mar 8, 2016 18:54

Macaroni Surprise: Nov 13, 2012

PT6A posted:

Yeah, cannabis leaves you totally functional

I'm a fan of it, but let's not pretend it doesn't get you really hosed up.

Working as an addiction counselor has made me a massive fan of medical marijuana for pain. The potential danger is so much lower than even low-dose opiates that in my mind it should be used as a first-pass medication to cope with chronic pain. I'd rather have any client addicted to marijuana over painkillers.

# ? Mar 9, 2016 02:09

nigga crab pollock: Mar 26, 2010; by Lowtax

My Imaginary GF posted:

gee, maybe you should move to a state which expanded medicaid eligability and get the gently caress out of your shithole? One can only help those who help themselves, and those who insist upon living in the south deserve what they get.

I still think that used drugs should be a fremium for a DealR type app. Why the gently caress not disrupt the pharma industry like uber has taxis? What are cities gonna do?

thanks for setting up a straw man down there, maybe once he finds his brain he'll realize what a mistake that was

its honestly not a bad idea by itself but with the state of everything it would not go well probably

nigga crab pollock fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Mar 9, 2016

# ? Mar 9, 2016 03:30

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Drugs are not expensive enough to merit being reused, if you object to paying a lot for them there are better solutions to that.

# ? Mar 9, 2016 14:20

Rhandhali: Sep 7, 2003; This is Free Trader Beowulf, calling anyone...; Grimey Drawer

Macaroni Surprise posted:

Working as an addiction counselor has made me a massive fan of medical marijuana for pain. The potential danger is so much lower than even low-dose opiates that in my mind it should be used as a first-pass medication to cope with chronic pain. I'd rather have any client addicted to marijuana over painkillers.

After having to do manual disimpactions, seeing bowels get cut out, people straight up die in front of you, people threaten me with violence for not sending them home on dilaudid pills I agree.

The worst I've seen is cannabis induced hyper emesis. Dude was smoking over an ounce a week and just would not stop vomiting. We just pumped him with fluids and asked him to please not smoke so much. I'll take that over having to fish rock hard chunks of poo poo out of of some dude any day.

# ? Mar 9, 2016 14:24

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

OwlFancier posted:

Drugs are not expensive enough to merit being reused, if you object to paying a lot for them there are better solutions to that.

Yeah, poppies will grow pretty much anywhere. :3:

# ? Mar 9, 2016 14:24

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Cugel the Clever posted:

Watching the Frontline episode on the Opiode epidemic and it's reaffirmed my ~~sociopathic~~ unpopular opinion that these social programs should be offering to put the junkies out of their suffering. Would save everyone involved a lot of pain, time, and money, plus eliminate the huge externalities these people have on the community around them that the documentary apparently didn't care to talk about.

What in the wasteful, murderous gently caress? I guess we could just improve the law and medical practice, or we could, you know, go all Aktion T4 about it.

# ? Mar 15, 2016 13:35

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

SedanChair posted:

What in the wasteful, murderous gently caress? I guess we could just improve the law and medical practice, or we could, you know, go all Aktion T4 about it.

Seeing stuff like that post is honestly very hurtful. It's difficult to describe, but it just makes you feel like you're worthless and should always keep everything bottled up. I imagine it's sort of similar to the way minorities/LGBT people feel when they're exposed to bigotry (LGBT is probably a better comparison, since a black person can't hide the fact that he's black). Even though I'm an addict, I've never stolen or even done anything illegal (I don't really think the illegal part matters but maybe some people do), and the only way I've hurt anyone else with my addiction is through my parents being upset that I'm so unhappy. My using stopped being related to trying to get high after the first year or so, and afterwards was entirely just to avoid the hell of withdrawals. I could seek out something that would get me high, but I don't. My motivation is entirely a fear of withdrawal/PAWS.

Generally speaking, if a large number of people have a specific problem, blaming individuals is both ineffective and dumb. People do things for a reason, and if a significant number of people behave in a certain way there is likely some reason they are doing so other than "they're just lazy/morally inferior."

# ? Mar 15, 2016 17:25

Grundulum: Feb 28, 2006

I focused on the word "offering" in Cugel the Clever's post. Assisted suicide is its own can of worms, but it is less outrageous than the euthanasia that Sedanchair and Ytlaya read it as.

# ? Mar 15, 2016 18:05

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Grundulum posted:

I focused on the word "offering" in Cugel the Clever's post. Assisted suicide is its own can of worms, but it is less outrageous than the euthanasia that Sedanchair and Ytlaya read it as.

How is it not euthanasia? You can "offer" euthanasia. In any case how ridiculous to even dignify it with your careful mitigation. Addicts don't want to die, if they did they know how to do it. Their "suffering" is a product of a system that withholds their drugs.

# ? Mar 15, 2016 18:31

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

It would not generally be euthanasia if you didn't offer it and secure consent. If you just go around killing people that's not generally called euthanasia.

# ? Mar 15, 2016 19:31

pangstrom: Jan 25, 2003; Wedge Regret

Posters can do what they want of course but I humbly suggest skipping over the MIGF posts and the social cleansing talk.

CDC released some guidelines, which I haven't read yet, but from the article gist they sound reasonable to me. For other opinions you can see the comments!
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/health/cdc-opioid-guidelines.html

# ? Mar 15, 2016 19:56

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Ytlaya posted:

Seeing stuff like that post is honestly very hurtful. It's difficult to describe, but it just makes you feel like you're worthless and should always keep everything bottled up. I imagine it's sort of similar to the way minorities/LGBT people feel when they're exposed to bigotry (LGBT is probably a better comparison, since a black person can't hide the fact that he's black). Even though I'm an addict, I've never stolen or even done anything illegal (I don't really think the illegal part matters but maybe some people do), and the only way I've hurt anyone else with my addiction is through my parents being upset that I'm so unhappy. My using stopped being related to trying to get high after the first year or so, and afterwards was entirely just to avoid the hell of withdrawals. I could seek out something that would get me high, but I don't. My motivation is entirely a fear of withdrawal/PAWS.

Generally speaking, if a large number of people have a specific problem, blaming individuals is both ineffective and dumb. People do things for a reason, and if a significant number of people behave in a certain way there is likely some reason they are doing so other than "they're just lazy/morally inferior."

So, you don't live in a vacuum. I assume your parents interact with individuals other than yourself. Do you think that their emotional response to your addict impacts any of their other relations? I'd imagine it'd be quite stressful to work full-time while knowing that you have a sick child. Your first instinct would be to turn down opportunities, such as working late in order to earn a promotion, so that you could be home and ensure your sick child doesn't overdose themselves.

Have you considered that your addiction may also be straining your parent's relation? Which do you love more, your mother, or your addiction?

For law-abiding citizens, it's an either-or issue. If you cared about your mother, you wouldn't be so afraid of withdrawal. That's a moral weakness, and America cannot abide weakness.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 15, 2016 22:04

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 23:23

XMNN: Apr 26, 2008; I am incredibly stupid

your trolling is better when it reads like something an actual person might write

# ? Mar 15, 2016 22:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The American Opioid Epidemic 20XX: Dropping the H-Bomb

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