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Cugel the Clever posted:As others aptly stated, assisted suicide ≠ forced euthanasia. You can improve law, medical practice, and offer those who wish it a safe, easy way to end their suffering. Whether it is addiction, another illness, or even just old age, assisted suicide empowers people to take control and end their lives on their own terms. Come now SedanChair, I never expected such conservatism from you! That also touches on questions about do not resuscitate orders or people saying "just let me die." Some people argue that forcing medical care on somebody to save their life is the right thing to do as all life must be preserved at all costs. In the case of assisted suicide (and, well, the above issue) that's why living wills are a huge deal. If somebody puts it in writing, talks it over with their doctor, signs it, and puts it on file there isn't much doubt. Then you can have it both ways; people who want to stay alive as long as possible can have that while people that want their plug pulled and the processed of dying sped up can have that as well. The most moral thing to do is to let the patient decide for themselves.
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Mar 17, 2016 03:10
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Spacewolf posted:Assisted suicide is a biiit different from a DNR, ethically. The thing with assisted suicide is that it isn't meant to be available to absolutely everybody on demand. Kind of the point of it is that people who are terminally ill or who would be in extreme pain and misery are to have the option to end it early. The point of assisted suicide is that if somebody is going to only live for another few weeks or months and those months are going to put them and everybody they care about through hell they should have the option to pass peacefully instead. It's kind of a grey area because on one hand the doctor is intentionally giving somebody the means to kill themselves. On the other hand not giving it to them is putting them through unnecessary suffering.
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Mar 17, 2016 15:17
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:A common thread to addiction and abuse is the depression and self-loathing that comes from the self and the user's relationship with society. AA is actually pretty ineffective. Their recovery rates, last I heard, are better than people trying to get clean by themselves but not by much. Addiction is very complex and has a ton of causes but that absolutely hits on common cycles of addiction and is something that people fail to understand. The very interesting thing is that most people who take opiates at some point don't get addicted to them. Think about people getting morphine after surgery; most people don't come down with an addiction to opiates and can just walk away and resume their lives once they've recovered. It turns out that a common thread is adequate support; people with good social circles, be they family or friends, that are willing to help them through rough patches, whatever they need, are far, far less likely to become addicts of any type. However if you have a family that is pressuring you to be successful and telling you that you must accomplish X thing by Y age and why the gently caress do you still work at a restaurant? Is that all you want to be? Get with it, kid. What, you haven't planned out your whole life by 20? You don't want to be a doctor? What the gently caress is wrong with you, loser? it tends to lead toward stress which leads toward addiction. This is why mental illness also leads toward addiction; that lack of societal support just fucks people up, makes them hate their lives, and they turn to addictions to feel better. It's also why addiction doesn't give a poo poo what social class you are. Society is one of the biggest barriers to recover too. Once you are an addict society will happily discard you as worthless. It's your own fault; why should we help you?
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Apr 4, 2016 04:10
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Tias posted:[citation needed] Never said they were completely ineffective or totally useless; the fact that AA and NA works for some people already justifies its existence. If it works for some people then hey it can keep working for those people. AA is for Quitters posted:The thing with AA/NA isn't so much the program itself, it's that the program gives structure and a group of sober people to hang out with. That's the big one; one of the reasons that people don't get clean is that, well, if you go to jail and get back out, who are your friends likely to be? Same old users you used to hang out with. It can be hard to get out of that scene if, say, your primary social activity was "go to bar -> get hell of drunk -> do it again tomorrow." Attending meetings forces you to break your routine which is very helpful. Which is why I say AA is kind of "meh" in its effectiveness; it's a good way for some people to get a support group but it isn't AA itself doing it. Think of quitting smoking. If literally all of your friends and family smoke good loving luck with quitting but if you quit hanging out with smokers it gets way easier. But...are you going to just give up all your friends and family that easy? What if you live in an area where drugs are just kind of everywhere?
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Apr 5, 2016 17:17
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BarbarianElephant posted:If there was any treatment with a high chance of success, addiction wouldn't be a big problem, would it? Treating addiction is treating the symptom instead of the disease. One of the issues with AA and NA is that they are played up like miracle cures that can work for absolutely anybody. It's common to force people to go to them after they get out of jail for possession or get a DUI or something. Yes I know this will affect its success rate but AA/NA meetings (where I've lived, anyway) are often tied to churches. At first it starts with "you must find a higher power to believe in" but before long it turns to "by the way we mean God. You can be a Christian or you can get out." That I imagine also factors in with its success rate. I'd be pretty furious if somebody said "yeah hey come to Jesus or you'll fail at being clean." Which is again not helping; saying you will just go back to using if you don't accept Jesus can be a real self-fulfilling prophecy. It also doesn't help that actual, genuine rehab isn't cheap.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:36
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The_Book_Of_Harry posted:And then people will still do drugs, if only because they can be loads of fun. Most people who do drugs don't get addicted. Generally speaking relatively few recreational drug users turn into addicts. Heroin is kind of an exception but even things you associate with very high levels of addiction don't have them that high. Even cocaine users tend to not get addicted.
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Apr 7, 2016 12:47
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Ratoslov posted:When you're addicted, access to your drug is right at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs for you. If you're out of your drug, you don't particularly care about not looking stupid. Opiate addiction is also exceptionally nasty because once you get that physical addiction rolling your brain is telling you that you are literally going to die if you don't get any opiates. From what I've read it's worst than feeling like you're starving to death, which is why heroin addicts can want drugs more than food. Opiate addiction is loving brutal.
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May 29, 2016 02:49
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Albino Squirrel posted:Oh man, anaesthesia attracts the enthusiasts like you wouldn't believe. One of my surgeon friends had to go searching for the anaesthetist because they couldn't find him for the start of surgery, only to find him in the OR bathroom, unconscious and tied off with a needle in his arm. "Doctor" is also a respected position in society so a doctor is more or less guaranteed to have a strong support group. Turns out that's one of the biggest indicators of whether a person will recover from addiction or not. The socially isolated probably don't feel much like they have anything going for them and go back to using. Plus just having somebody around that says "hey I care about you and don't want to see you do this to yourself" is a pretty strong motivator to get clean.
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May 30, 2016 19:41
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OwlFancier posted:That's a bit odd because where I live I think just about any pharmacy will accept drugs for disposal. That's actually a huge problem in the water for a lot of areas, especially when it comes to hormones. Entire species of fish are being wiped out because estrogen in the water (often from birth control) is turning all of their babies female. No males means no new babies and the species is gone forever.
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Jun 2, 2016 03:14
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Spoondick posted:I may be wrong about the impending prescriber apocalypse. The problem is so pervasive that if you withdrew every medical license over inappropriate opioid prescriptions we wouldn't have many doctors left to practice afterwards. That fact may be the only thing that gets these shitheads off the hook, but I'd still like to see them aggressively prosecute doctors who've already had their licenses taken. I mean look at this goddamned poo poo and tell me it isn't murder. I doubt we'll see blanket revocation of licenses. However, I can see blanket threats of revocation of licenses. As in, "hey if you knock this off you might pay a few fines and we'll be cool. If you don't you aren't going to stay a doctor long. Got it?"
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Jun 4, 2016 14:36
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sean10mm posted:Yeah, I'm the same way. I had various opiate pills prescribed after injuries or operations over like a 20 year period I got Vicodin when I broke my elbow one time. I took it for about a week. It didn't do much for the pain directly. It mostly made the world feel like it was moving in slow motion while my memory quit working well. I still felt the pain but didn't notice it all that much. So I guess it sort of worked? I hated that feeling though and it made it hard to do pretty much anything. People would be like "I saw you!" and I'd be like "sorry, don't remember because drugs."
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Jun 6, 2016 16:32
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and they never did poo poo for me except make me tired and make it hard to poo poo. They were almost worthless as painkillers and gave me no pleasure at all.
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Albino Squirrel posted:I agree with most of what you're saying, except your implication that doctors are given adequate training on how to manage opioid use. They really aren't. The amount of teaching I got on pain management, and on addiction treatment, was essentially zero. I finished residency in 2008 and I don't think the formal teaching has improved much, though I'll ask the med student at work this week. Isn't it also a common problem that people who don't get the answer they want from their current doctor just switch doctors? I seem to remember reading things about morbidly obese people switching doctors until they get somebody that just doesn't mention it or people who didn't get the meds they wanted switching until they did. Yeah one doctor can say no but what if there's one that will prescribe whatever you want? Then word gets around and the only way to get enough patients to maintain your practice is to hand out opiates like candy.
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Jun 7, 2016 15:26
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Rhandhali posted:There was a TCC goon that died of an overdose of Imodium as I recall. You can die from an overdose of basically anything. Having too much water in your body kills you.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:13
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Meanwhile nobody wants to address why addiction happens in the first place. As more and more people become disenfranchised and have zero prospects in life addiction will go up. As the social safety net withers addiction will go up. If the gop starts a new pointless war that produces broken vets addiction will go up.
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Dec 12, 2016 20:04
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pangstrom posted:Putting straightforward suicide attempts aside, what proportion of users-mixing-opiates-with-depressants-who-OD knew they were playing with fire, do you guys think? Seems like it would be high. Feels semi-suicidal, at least the "gently caress it" sense. There often comes a point, for a lot of reasons, where an addict just absolutely does not care if they die or not. A hell of a lot of addicts have awful lives that have no sign of getting better so they turn to drugs to get away from that. They know drugs kill people but there are two things that happen; on is the what I just mentioned: the addict just no longer cares and knows that it'll kill them. The other is that they've done it for years and it hasn't killed them so it won't this time. If you do something that might kill you 500 times and it doesn't you tend to think "well, whatever I can handle this." Then there's That One Time that it does. Yes it's often a combination of the two. People know addiction kills people and drugs are bad. The problem is that for a lot of people real life is worse.
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Jan 7, 2017 01:08
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Ytlaya posted:It's also that the level of suffering that addiction creates for the addict is literally inconceivable for normal people. So before becoming an addict, he/she thinks "my life is poo poo now, so it's worth getting to feel nice for a while even if I end up addicted." But this is because they don't quite realize just how much worse things can be. At least this was the case for me. I think the hardest thing to explain (I, too, have a history of addiction) is that not only can you not just will the addiction away but it's a way out. So many people just fail to understand "I do X to forget." It's also why it's hard to explain relapses to people. "This person was clean, why did they go back?" It isn't like it's a conscious choice. "Hey I sure did love it when my life was dominated by a substance! I should go back to that" just isn't something people think. But sometimes, when you've had a bad day, or you're frustrated with life, or somebody just offers you some...man, just a little taste...I had some good times then. That sure felt good, you know? It wasn't all bad. We used to use and then we'd... ...then one taste becomes two; it becomes ten. It's very, very hard to explain to people that it's a day to day thing. Your life changes forever after you've shaken off an addiction. That temptation is always there and the flesh is weak. People who haven't been there just don't understand it. Incidentally there's some similarities there with mental illness as well. And, of course, the two are often connected.
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Jan 7, 2017 05:52
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Albino Squirrel posted:poo poo, man, that's most social programs. It costs upwards of $100K to 'keep' someone homeless in terms of justice, policing, health care, emergency shelters etc.. Versus about $12K a year to just give them an apartment. Yeah but if you just give them an apartment they aren't earning it. Who cares if it costs more, they aren't getting anything for free on MY dime.
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Jan 25, 2017 04:02
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Albino Squirrel posted:There is actually a greater risk of chronic pain issues in impoverished populations due to a) higher trauma incidence, b) more job-related injuries in manual employment, and c) higher degree of emotional distress which can lead to increased pain perceptions. Also remember that's reported addiction issues; someone with more financial and social resources may be more able to compensate for their addiction issues and so may be less likely to show up in the data. A non-poor person also has an easier time just affording a prescription from a pill mill forever and ever especially when insurance comes into play. A certain amount of the opioid epidemic was middle class and up people getting long term refillable prescriptions from the pill mill doctors. Totally legal and totally deniable. Well yeah I'm not a junkie like those dirty, poor heroin addicts I just have this knee that acts up and my back hurts sometimes. That's probably not going to actually be reported as an addiction. A less wealthy person who can't just visit the doctor and whine whenever they want more drugs is more likely to get arrested by turning to illegal channels to get said drugs. A lot of it is the Rush Limbaugh "I'm not an addict I just...had a problem" type of things.
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Jan 31, 2017 01:20
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empty whippet box posted:One of my friends died of a heroin overdose two nights ago. I don't have anything else to add I guess. He was 25. Goondolences, yo. That's an awful tragedy no matter how you slice it.
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Apr 3, 2017 06:23
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pangstrom posted:I don't really know the street scene but seems like you would at least sell them as speedballs. Sometimes dealers don't really know what they have and fentanyl is cheap as heck to make though so that's probably part of why it's showing up in everything. Cross-contamination is a massive, massive issue with something as strong as fentanyl, though. You can be killed by somebody opening a bag of it in the same room as you. That stuff does not gently caress around. It doesn't take much of it at all accidentally finding its way into something else to make people die. Aside from the opioid epidemic police in some places now just carry naloxone everywhere they go because fentanyl is so deadly. Get a call for an overdose, find a dead person, get a bit of fentanyl in your system, now you're dead too! Hurray! With it becoming increasingly common it's actually kind of horrifying.
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May 25, 2017 23:32
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If we'd start solving the problems people look to addiction to escape in the first place we'd have fewer addicts overall but that's soooo haaaaarrrrrrrrdddddd. The war on drugs is not only a massive failure but it's trying to solve the wrong problem. While some people just become addicts with no real "reason" stuff like poverty, social isolation, stress, mental illness, etc. inspire addiction something fierce. It's just far, far easier to say "those people are icky" and lock them in cages.
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May 26, 2017 00:41
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the black husserl posted:The fact that this epidemic has easily eclipsed total deaths at the peak of the AIDS crisis just stops me in my tracks. No. There will be more addicts. If memory serves the number of addicts and how many new ones we get are also going up.
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Jun 7, 2017 00:04
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paternity suitor posted:What could possibly move the government to change drug policy in the near future? I just don't see how. How much worse does it need to get? I realized the other day that I'm not even surprised to hear someone passed in their 30s anymore. I hear someone passed and I know what it is. It's just normal now. Something is going to break. I think the idea of defunding rehab, mental health facilities, and what have you was to save money. Just turn the crazies and junkies out on the street and let it sort itself out. However it's turning out that it isn't really saving money because of how we deal with the war on drugs. Poverty reduction programs, a decent social safety net, and actual investment in society reduce addiction rates by attacking what causes addicts in the first place. It costs less to educate somebody and get them a job than it does to lock them up in jail forever. However, American society is inherently punitive; it feels better to severely punish those people when they screw up so the "tough on crime" narrative sells well. You see this shift in states legalizing medical pot, decriminalizing possession, or just outright legalizing it. Technically speaking they can't do that because the federal government declared it a controlled substance but what the gently caress else are they going to do? Locking up every single person that's ever smoked the devil's weed would put like half of adult Americans in jail. Otherwise there's the issue that the war on drugs, despite all the money dumped into it, has shown itself as a massive failure when it comes to reducing drug use. It's done a drat fine job of putting black people in jail but that's also pissing off a lot of people.
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Jun 8, 2017 09:11
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Fried Watermelon posted:What a hellish life you must have if your reaction to people overdosing is to punish them and hope they die rather than trying to fix the underlying problems. Actually fixing the problem costs money and only the rich have that right now. Of course they aren't going to spend their hard-earned money that they totally deserve you dirty pleb on the rest of us. The other side of that is there's a poo poo load of profit to be made manufacturing opioids so of course pharma companies want to shovel more pills into America as fast as they'll go. Who cares if people die? They're a renewable resource.
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Jun 30, 2017 00:58
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PT6A posted:Let's separate the addiction problem and homelessness problem for a moment. I've heard a lot of conjecture about the feeling of "hopelessness" that just leads people to shooting heroin, but if that were the case, surely we would've seen these epidemic levels of drug addiction and overdoses in the black community while they were being treated as property, lynched, systematically discriminated against, told where they can and cannot live (redlining/sundown towns) and everything else. I wonder how "economically anxious" that made them? You think that there wasn't? Mind that was also before the War on Drugs started and also before the massively deadly drugs we have now really hit the market. Not as many statistics were kept and drug use was just kind of a thing that existed. It didn't get as much press because it wasn't as deadly and we didn't hear about drug smugglers every other day in the news. There has always been addiction. The difference now is that we have substances that can make you overdose if you so much as touch them. In the past the way to die of addiction was generally drinking yourself to death over multiple decades.
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Jul 1, 2017 00:05
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BarbarianElephant posted:As far as I know, people who professionally work with "difficult" people often get a cynical attitude and burn out. Part of that is how overtaxed and over burdened they tend to be. People who go into helping addicts and the severely damaged tend to do it because they want to help. Then they see how woefully inadequate the resources are, the stigma attached to the people, and how the prognosis often isn't good and become cynical in general. Our society is not kind to these people and look badly on those that just want to help.
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Jan 24, 2018 16:12
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:How many illicit substance has Trump used “just for fun” and how many congressmen are binge drinkers with a side opoid habit? Probably a a lot, but thank god these american heroes are confronting real issues It doesn't count as an addiction if you have a prescription, buddy.
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Feb 8, 2018 00:35
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It's almost as if... Now this might sound crazy but hear me out... That addiction is a complicated thing that isn't easy to solve by just throwing more police at it.
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Feb 10, 2018 02:45
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BarbarianElephant posted:I think the idea is that Fetanyl is cheaper than heroin, but so strong that it’s hard to measure out correctly, due to the tiny quantities involved. Drug mills aren’t exactly full of trained pharmacists. So sometimes they screw up and make something stronger than they intended. The other thing is that Fentanyl is easier to smuggle because it's so strong. This isn't like "the police just seized a van literally full of bricks of cocaine." This is more "we caught a guy with a few pounds in the bottom of a backpack." Or...well... https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/29/health/nj-largest-fentanyl-seizure-trnd/index.html 100 pounds of it could kill every single person in New York and New Jersey. That's kill. This poo poo is that strong. It takes very little of it to have a steady supply of opiates for your customers and smaller things by virtue of being smaller are just plain easier to hide. So you get a few grams, maybe a pound, and you're good for a while. Just cut it with some other poo poo. Problem is that it's so strong it's very difficult to dose right. The drug trade is also not exactly known for its consistency or purity so it's hard to tell if it's actually pure or not in the first place. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Feb 21, 2018 |
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Feb 21, 2018 15:17
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HonorableTB posted:I have a question that I haven't been able to find a good answer for and I don't know who to ask without looking like a huge idiot so here we go: Some people are just extremely resistant or practically immune to some things. It's part of why dosing drugs is pretty difficult; one person will get a response from 10 mg while another can take 100 mg and still feel nothing. It's why "L.D. 50" is a thing; that's the dose that will kill 50% of people. Do some Googling to see some of the absurd amounts of various substances that people have consumed and survived. I have the same problem with sleeping pills; I have insomnia but none of them do much of anything. They'll work for a few days kind of sort of a little bit but within a week or two they do absolutely nothing. Benedryl doesn't make me feel the least bit drowsy. You're probably one of the weird outliers that opiates just don't do much to. There's over 7,000,000,000 people in the world; there's a lot of room for variation there and it sounds like you landed somewhere on the far end of a bell curve on that one.
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Feb 23, 2018 14:03
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Ytlaya posted:What Tim Raines mentioned seems far more likely, because it's not unusual at all for (as in your example) someone with insomnia to not respond to weak over-the-counter sleep aids like benedryl, while it is very unusual for someone to not respond at all to opiates (unless there's some specific condition causing that). Benedryl (and I believe other anti-histamine sleep aids) won't do anything for certain types of insomnia, and can actually make it worse when the cause is something like restless legs. I probably should have been more specific; even prescription sleep aids do gently caress all for me. I've tried several of them and they just don't work. It was really just an example to point out that some random people have a crazy resistance to some things for various reasons. Some people are just unusual in weird ways like that.
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Feb 23, 2018 23:06
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Sinners Sandwich posted:Did no one ever sit down and explain the opiod crisis? I think it's pretty basic stuff how people get hooked off prescription medication. Wouldn't matter; this is Trump and the Republicans we're talking about. If you look at the real reasons you'd have to confront everything that's wrong with America right now. It's easier and feels better to just severely punish some people we don't like already anyway.
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Mar 28, 2018 02:23
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Society manages to create greater social harms from prohibition than from free availability, so. Seriously. The only thing the war on drugs has succeeded at is putting an absolute gently caress load of people in jail. Criminalizing drugs has also led to a hell of a lot of gang and cartel violence. Banning drugs just plain doesn't work. It should all be legalized. All of it. It should be regulated as well; no drug advertisements, no pushing pills. Fund rehab and proper drug education if you want use to go down. Treat addiction like the medical condition it is. Most drug users aren't addicts.
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Dec 3, 2018 14:42
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Ytlaya posted:I'm not sure if this is true of non-medical opiate users. I think even opiates should be decriminalized and high quality, regulated opiates should be offered at those stations/clinics other countries have tried, but actually making them legal to sell...as an addict it would make it difficult mentally if I could easily buy safe drugs. I'm currently fortunate in that the stuff I was addicted to is a sort of grey market thing that became difficult to acquire in recent years, so I can't really mess up my pseudo-sobriety (I'm on suboxone) with a bad impulse (I imagine people who can just call up their dealer or whatever have a much harder time with this). Most people who use drugs are partiers who otherwise lead what you'd call a pretty normal life. That can lead to addiction but it doesn't always. One very interesting thing I read is that most people who have major surgery actually don't get addicted to the morphine at all. One reason that addiction is going up is because in contemporary society we're increasingly isolated. Lacking social and emotional support leads to other ways of venting bad emotions. That can at times lead to addiction; so somebody mostly living in isolation gets a script for some opiates then things progress and...yeah. Addiction is obviously a complex issue but one thing I read that was very interesting is that only a single digit percentage of people who try cocaine ever get addicted. Mostly it's just something people do occasionally at parties. Opiates are obviously more addicting but even then most people don't get addicted. The argument you make though, that can be used to argue in favor of banning alcohol again. We see how that worked in history. Yeah it isn't easy if it's available everywhere but really, the war on drugs is a horrible thing. Punishing addiction isn't helping.
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Dec 10, 2018 02:59
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pangstrom posted:What Toxic Slurpee said is totally true. The problem with the "prescriptions not driving" take is the base rates. You give ~58 prescriptions for every 100 americans and, even with low addiction "hit" rates, you've got an epidemic. The control group is the rest of the loving world. Yeah, over prescription of opiods isn't helping and from what I've read synthetic opiates are way more addictive than natural ones. Even so, the leading cause of addiction isn't the substances it's our hosed up society. You can get addicted to basically anything and addiction rates in general are going up.
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Dec 10, 2018 05:40
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pangstrom posted:I mean, maybe. Doing the global comparison thing again, it's hard (for me at least) to say the US is worse than the global average in an individual despair sense. Americans are increasingly socially isolated. That right there is a major driver in misery even in people that are materially comfortable. Humans are social as hell. Babies literally die if nobody touches them. That's not an exaggeration; a baby that never gets touched by another human dies. Babies that aren't snuggled and held enough have increased risks of depression, addiction, anxiety, self-harm, and being the victims of various crimes when they grow up. Then once people become adults lacking any close friends that you can talk about basically anything with increases the chances of addiction, depression, early death, and even a poo poo load of physical ailments. One of the main reasons American health sucks so much is because of how individually isolated we're becoming as a society. There are numerous reasons why but even simple things like "I have somebody in my life that I can have sex with regularly" is a major indicator of how happy a person is. Unhappy people are way more likely to become addicts and, surprise surprise, a person with a poo poo load of money but no friends is practically guaranteed to be a miserable addict that hates existing. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Dec 10, 2018 |
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Dec 10, 2018 05:49
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Yeah you're going to have a lot of people arguing that the answer is longer prison sentences, harsher laws, and more police.
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Jan 19, 2019 14:00
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