Lucifer: Saved, Hail Satan

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Lucifer: Saved, Hail Satan

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Spidder posted:

Why pretend this is based on Neil Gaiman's characters in the first place? Like what's even the point of having a source material if you don't actually use it? This whole thing is dumb imo.

I guess having it be "based on" something successful shows that it's a safe bet, so you just find a thing that's sort of almost what you want to do and claim you're adapting it to get your idea approved. See also: iZombie, Dark Matter, etc.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2016 02:28

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 14:49

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Boogaleeboo posted:

they care that it's another loving rote cop drama trying to be sold on the strength of it's lead.

Why? If you don't like this sort of show, and you aren't a big fan of the comic who's disappointed that it isn't that, what's your investment? There's tons of stuff on TV, just don't watch this show if you don't want to. :confused:

# ¿ Jan 28, 2016 08:06

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Boogaleeboo posted:

Because for every show like this that gets made, another show isn't. That's how it works, they need X amount of time filled and they order up the series who think will work best. It's not like if this didn't get made nothing would, bland cliche poo poo actively takes away time that would have went to something else.

Yeah, but almost certainly not something you'd think was any better. :shrug:

Boogaleeboo posted:

Then there are secondary issues, like how some people feel this is now a vaguely genre vaguely comic book show, so if it fails nobody is going to think it's because it was another loving cookie cutter male lead with wacky quirk bounces off more stoic female lead yawn-fest. They'll think it's because it's a comic book show.

Pretty sure in 2016 "comic book show" and "police procedural with a quirky lead" are seen as about equally good bets and that's not likely to change any time soon.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2016 10:19

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Drifter posted:

You can't judge a show based upon its currently released episodes - you have to divine its future potential? I didn't realize. My bad.

The first episode or two of a show is often pretty weak compared with the later ones. After three or four episodes you can generally get a pretty good idea of where it's going, but unless it's really egregious (or just a premise/style you're just not into) then it's pretty hard to tell much from the first episode.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2016 15:38

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

I felt this episode dragged a little in setting up the partnership. I expect it'll be much better once the two of them working together is just the established thing that happens.

evilmiera posted:

Liked the second episode less than the first, if only because it started straining a bit under the pressure of having a character breaking so many laws and not being properly arrested. I mean, Lucifer just set up a duel to the death on an open street and took an arrested man out of custody , I am pretty sure that lands you some time in jail. I mean, not that they could hold him, he broke out of hell and all, but still, I don't think "helped us solve another murder, sort of, even though there's no real evidence to back up his claim" is enough for anyone not to press charges.

What do you charge him with? He just asks people to do stuff and they do it. That's not a crime.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2016 17:42

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Medullah posted:

Mark Pellegrino has pretty much ruined anyone else playing Lucifer. His performance in season 5 of Supernatural was pretty much perfect.

Nah, I'm with seaborgium. Ray Wise was the best.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2016 05:10

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Chasiubao posted:

Are they actually playing PUAs for laughs? This is amazing

They seemed to be giving them way too much credit to me. In fact, this episode seemed pretty weak overall, compared with the previous ones.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2016 16:33

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

This show would be vastly improved if Mazikeen (or whatever her name is) wasn't in it. It's bad enough that we have to put up with the phase where cop woman is complaining about having to put up with him constantly, having this other character being a wet blanket the whole time is just dragging it down. "Why aren't you taking things seriously, stop having fun, follow the rules." It might help if what she wanted wasn't so fundamentally opposed to the whole premise of the show, so we, the audience, could feel some sympathy for her motives. Or if there was some clear danger she was trying to protect him from. But she just comes across as anti-fun.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2016 15:31

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

ShakeZula posted:

Interesting that while Lucifer's charm powers don't work on Chloe, Amenadiel's seemingly do. Kind of undermines any theory that she's part angel or whatever.

I don't think that was powers, she just thought he was charming.

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

It kinda says a lot for the show that the character is complex enough to have something like this be questioned.

Or you're reading more into it than is actually there.

zoux posted:

I did think it pretty weak that a little fiber optic light can mimic Holy Divinity well enough to dupe two Angels of the Lord.

odiv posted:

He does literally say that only the owner would know the difference.

Nothing about that made any sense. Seeing the actual wings obviously had a profound effect on the guy who had them in his house, and the actual props looked different as well. The ones at the auction looked kind of poo poo, really, and it made no sense that everyone there was so impressed by them. If they'd been real then you could say the actual appearance wasn't relevant because the awe was because of their divine aura or whatever, but if they're fakes then everyone in that room (including the cop who definitely thought they were fake and two angels who should have known better) was super impressed by some fake-looking wings.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2016 04:43

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Snak posted:

Yeah the procedural part is pretty loving bad. Like "I could write this part of the show in my sleep" bad.

Obvious suspect -> alibi -> second suspect is suspicious -> first suspect's alibi falls apart -> it was the first suspect. CASE SOLVE PAT ON THE BACK.

When I saw that, my thought was "finally, this show is getting into the formula." I thought this episode was the best so far, and the show might actually be OK. They've gotten over that bit at the start of every police procedural where they have to lean on the twist really hard and now they can settle in and just make the show the way it's supposed to be.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2016 15:34

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Snak posted:

...when you say "that", are you referring to the only part of my post that you didn't quote?

or are you saying that a completely predictable formula every episode is good because it lets them focus on the rest of the show?

I like procedurals. I think the bigger story gets in the way of the bits I like. I want the formulaic case of the week, not the rest of it. I hope they don't focus on the big mystery and just keep that as a background thing. Focusing on the bigger stories is what ruins these shows.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2016 16:35

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Snak posted:

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that so far, the procedural cases are super boring because there's no effort put into making them engaging. They are literally a cut and past formula that is the same every. single. episode. Down to the quips when they arrest people.

Yep, that's how procedurals work.

Snak posted:

But character bits like that will exist completely independent of the case of the week. There's always gonna be a gimmick for one of the suspects. Sometimes they will be suicidal, sometimes they will be a crazy shipper, sometimes they will hold the world high score in 3d Tetris.

Exactly.

FRINGE posted:

What you want would be like Supernatural still fighting haunted trucks and bug swarms in season 45 or whatever theyre on.

Yes, exactly!

Snak posted:

There isn't anything wrong with a 100% procedural show, but you can't have ever episode be the same really generic formula. You can't have Law&Order where every case unfolds the same way.

Why not? It's a winning formula.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2016 03:13

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

counterfeitsaint posted:

The problem is there's a million procedurals you can watch already. If you enjoy that stuff great, but the rest of us would like a more supernatural themed show starring the loving devil being a smarmy rear end mother fucker. Give us what we want with Lucifer, and you can continue to enjoy CSI: Ann Arbor or whatever.

You know, I'm not actually in charge of the show. What I want doesn't automatically come to pass. We're just talking in this thread about what we'd like to see from this show and I shared my opinion. :shrug:

# ¿ Mar 18, 2016 05:30

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Snak posted:

It's really not.

Have you ever watched M*A*S*H?

Um, yeah. It was a sitcom, not a procedural. :confused:

# ¿ Mar 18, 2016 13:52

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Snak posted:

Fair enough. What about CSI? Surely that is a procedural, and yet not all of their cases unfold the exact same way. It has much more variety than Lucifer does so far. Because it's a better show.

And I mean real CSI for like the first 5 seasons, not all the garbage spin-offs.

I remember CSI being fairly formulaic, but it's been ages since I watched any of them (except for about three episodes of CSI Cyber when it started) and mostly preferred CSI Miami anyway.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2016 16:06

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Amenadiel and Linda have both been involved in cases now and I assume will be again. I'm guessing Mazikeen will be as well.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2016 03:26

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Snak posted:

But there's no way for them to be involved without tying the episode into the over-arching story. Well not Amenadiel, at least. I'm just not seeing how this should could survive being 100% procedural given the existing cast of characters.

Amenadiel could be roped into helping just about any time by having him justify it as using it as an opportunity to spend time with Lucifer so he can try to convince him to go back to hell. Linda can be there so they can make use of her expertise. Mazikeen will be the easiest once Lucifer forgives her, since she's his protector and it would make sense for her to be wherever he is.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2016 13:21

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

toe knee hand posted:

Some amazing Mazikeen moments in that episode.

Yeah, I'm starting to not hate her.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2016 15:52

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Shooting Blanks posted:

This, and it's why LEOs are generally taught to cuff people's hands behind their back.

Yeah, during that scene I was thinking "Wait, you're letting him put keep his hands in front of him? That's really dumb and not how you're supposed to do it." and then turns out yep, it was really dumb. Dan is bad at his job.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2016 04:04

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

hatelull posted:

If this whole season ends with him becoming a regular mortal dude with a ridiculous vanity problem and the ability to persuade people to speak their secrets and desires, does the show still have any attraction?

That's pretty much what it already is now, so yeah?

# ¿ Mar 31, 2016 02:56

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Shooting Blanks posted:

The Magicians, it's a better show anyway.

The Magicians is garbage. It's aiming high and failing miserably. This show is aiming low but it's hitting the target.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 16:27

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Binary Logic posted:

A homicide investigator doesn't just bounce from case to case each week! Even after a confession Decker would have to spend weeks or months doing paperwork, putting together the crime scene evidence, witness testimony, preparing for and testifying in court.

Has that ever happened in any TV show ever?

# ¿ Apr 11, 2016 14:57

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Binary Logic posted:

an investigation could be drawn out for a few eps, half season or whatever and get deeper into the case while still moving Lucifer's story arc forward.

That sounds terrible.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2016 15:38

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

I think my favorite part of this episode was the guy completely believing Lucifer about what the coin was, no questions asked.

It's not like one of his titles is Lord of Lies or anything, just "Welp, ok cool" and that's it.

Thinking maybe that time in the coma done gave him the brain damage.

I don't think he was the brightest bulb to begin with. Plus, he already knows Lucifer is a genuine angel just like the one that saved him and this probably gives him at least something to think over.

Binary Logic posted:

Decker would have to gather evidence, get witness statements, wait for the coroner's report, type up all the notes, etc etc. She'd work on this case for weeks.
However tomorrow (ie next episode) this will all be forgotten and Chloe will be assigned a new homicide case.

And what would the show be focusing on during that time? Lucifer hanging around pestering her while she does nothing interesting?

Astrofig posted:

I thought the whole 'inadmissible if they don't read you your rights' thing was a myth----isn't that only if they're going to question you?

Like practically every aspect of policing you see on TV, it's based on truth but exaggerated for the sake of drama. There are rules about how the police can collect evidence and what's admissible, but TV generally makes them tighter or looser depending on what works for the story.

counterfeitsaint posted:

You'd think after what he went through figuring out exactly what to avoid to not go back to hell would be a major priority for him.

He doesn't seem the type to really think things through.

counterfeitsaint posted:

Catholics aren't generally the 'repent and accept Jesus and you're good' sort

What do you think confession is?

evilmiera posted:

My main problem with this episode is that Lucifer seemed to lie at the beginning of it when he seemed to agree that he and Decker slept together. Then again maybe he didn't on account of mostly just following along with her presumption before telling her what really happened.

It all comes down to what counts as a lie, really. Is he literally unable to say something that he doesn't believe? Or does it count intent, so he can use irony? Or is it just a matter of preference, that he likes to be deceptive without outright lying? He was clearly stringing her along a bit before telling her the truth, so there are plenty of loopholes regardless of the exact rule.

Alchenar posted:

Confession isn't a magic ticket, you have to genuinely repent and be sorry and try to make amends etc etc. It doubly doesn't count if you commit sins with the intention of just going to confession later and washing it all away.

Well, it really doesn't matter what you intend when you commit the sin, it only matters that you truly repent afterwards.

Binary Logic posted:

I read a theory or fanfiction that Chloe is a descendant of Eve, which is interesting from a Bible story or plot perspective but leaves a lot of questions hanging.

Like how could a human not be descended from Eve?

Binary Logic posted:

I really like the theme or trope that the longer they are on Earth, the more human they become. It's been done with aliens (both invaders and superheroes) many times and is interesting to see in this scriptural context.

You should watch Supernatural. It's terrible, but by the time you realise that you'll be in too deep.

# ¿ Apr 13, 2016 17:02

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Potooweet posted:

I was expecting him to say "Everyone." or something like that, because he didn't see anyone else when he was in Hell.

Yeah, I was thinking it could be cool to do a Reaper style thing where the crimes they investigate are committed by people who escaped from hell.

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

I was betting on Cain cause he had that "We are so hosed" look, and it fit with his brother's reaction about "whoops, taking responsibility for killing these pesky mortals" speech.

Going with the multiple escapees idea, it could have been Cain, Judas, Lilith, Salome, etc. with a different one appearing as the villain each week.

FRINGE posted:

Hopefully its a red herring and "mum" is short for some deity-level prisoner of hell that has a name that has "mum" in it.

That would probably be about the least stupid option they could go with.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2016 16:15

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Pan Dulce posted:

It's back! So's Maze. For about two seconds, when they mentioned she was working things out with a friend, the only one I remembered she had was Trixie, and my mind just went off thinking about that dynamic.

Same.

tarlibone posted:

not interested in proving the existence of God on principal alone because it would somehow negate faith

...

when asked a hypothetical question about what she'd do if she could prove God exists, she's like, "what's the point? Then, we wouldn't need faith." I'm fairly confident that no real-world Christian would immediately come to that conclusion.

Yeah, that was super dumb and I hate it.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2016 16:58

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

This was a surprisingly good episode given how badly it started. That stuff with Lucifer being all embarrassed about seeing his mother's borrowed human body naked was really dumb.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2016 15:59

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Pan Dulce posted:

A diss to Supernatural's Castiel.

This show is not good enough to diss Supernatural. Yes, I know what I said.

spooky like this! posted:

It was kind of weird that Dan straight up says "Netflix" when they were talking about those old action movies becoming popular again. Usually shows don't mention real world products/websites that like.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't and it's never been clear to me what the reasoning is. Sometimes it's because the stand-in company (or its owner) is doing something shady, other times it just seems arbitrary.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 16:45

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

This episode was a massive step up from the last one. Two episodes like that last one in a row and I'd probably have stopped watching, so I'm glad it was a fluke.

Ville Valo posted:

I'm still dying to know what the deal is with Chloe's presence depowering Luci, or at least making him vulnerable. I'm hoping it's something like she's the last scion.

If she's the last scion, what would that make Trixie? :crossarms:

# ¿ Nov 3, 2016 16:25

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Snak posted:

I don't understand what "the last scion" is in this context... google did not help.

edit: It seems like it's either the last living descendant of Mary, Mother of Christ, or if you get all Dan Brown with it, the last descendant of Mary Magdalene/Jesus.

But I don't turn up any results at all that are from actual, non Kevin Smith, non Dan Brown sources.

I was just pointing out that you can't be the last descendent of anyone if you have a child.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2016 16:49

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Zebulon posted:

I mean, from what I recall there's a lot of reeeeeally freaky looking angels when you're in the higher choirs/tiers.

Ezekiel posted:

As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like topaz, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not change direction as the creatures went. Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2016 05:03

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

This was the best episode so far. Lucifer aping Dan was fantastic, and Mazikeen finally seems to have a reason to be in the show.

# ¿ Nov 10, 2016 16:40

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Aren't Death and Azrael completely separate characters?

# ¿ Nov 16, 2016 02:56

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

tarlibone posted:

In a general sense, that's true. But, being used as a title to indicate some relationship to God, as would be the context here? That pretty much came from the people who came up with Dogma.

I'm pretty sure Dogma just used it in its ordinary English sense. The protagonist was a scion of Christ, meaning that she was descended from him, and she was the last one because she was incapable of having children (until God healed her at the end). It's people who didn't know that "scion" was a word when they watched the film who put that extra meaning onto it.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2016 04:46

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

tarlibone posted:

No, they're clearly giving the term some serious importance, not just using it as a matter-of-face "oh hey, she happens to be the last living descendant of the Lord, neat!"

The important thing is that she's the descendent of Jesus, not the words they're using to convey that concept. They people attaching importance to her in the film aren't doing so because "the last scion" is a mythical or prophesied thing, it's because she's a descendent of Jesus.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2016 08:23

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

muscles like this! posted:

Nice to see the show being a little more explicit(ish) about Lucifer swinging both ways.

On the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, one of the very few bisexual characters on TV is literally the devil...

# ¿ Jan 18, 2017 04:45

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

DoggPickle posted:

I keep seeing it over and over but "this show is better than it should be". At what point does it just become a good show instead of something that everyone loves UNIRONICALLY?

Never. I don't understand the overwhelmingly positive response it gets here. It's a solidly mediocre show that I'll probably keep watching until it's cancelled and then never think about again.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2017 06:09

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

DoggPickle posted:

Solidly mediocre? I think you don't include the 90% of TV that is unwatchable?

"Mediocre" doesn't mean "average", it just means of satisfactory or acceptable quality without being exceptional in any way.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2017 08:10

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

biracial bear for uncut posted:

Because Lucifer and Satan are two separate beings.

Is that a thing from the comic?

# ¿ May 18, 2017 03:53

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 14:49

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

biracial bear for uncut posted:

Nope. It's an actual thing in the Christian mythology that fundamentalists and people that don't study the Bible too closely like to ignore because it's too much to keep track of who is who.

Satan is basically God's District Prosecuting Attorney, going about looking for reasons why everyone deserves to go to Hell.

Lucifer is one of the beings that rebelled against the order of things and was cast down to Hell.

This is why when you get to the book of Job you are suddenly reading about Satan being allowed to just wander around in Heaven and talk poo poo at God about Job. It's a pretty big biblical clue that they are not the same being (in spite of a bunch of traditions saying they are).

I don't think any of this is particularly accurate. There's certainly a lot of interpretation involved in reconciling the various bits of the Bible with each other, but that doesn't apply any more to Satan/Lucifer than it does to God or various other characters and events. Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think "Lucifer" is even a specific character in the Bible?

# ¿ May 19, 2017 03:19

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