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So is bernie making Hiliary to be a goldmansucks shill working or are people just kinda shrugging it off
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Feb 5, 2016 09:39
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Bass Bottles posted:Okay so I just looked at Bernie's education plan and it's extremely similar, with some notable differences. Again, people (on these forums) tend to demand 80 page policy papers from Sanders while never even examining Clinton's. The speculation tax would be a small tax on High Frequency Trading, which is computer driven algorithm based trading that makes a whole lot of very low risk money for the major traders. Basically they buy massive numbers of shares, hold them for often less than a few minutes and then sell them, generally netting a penny or less per share but since they trade thousands to millions of shares at once they make money through volume. Its handled by computers and under normal conditions has very low risk involved. In not normal conditions high frequency trading can rapidly wreck the market faster than humans can react. Look up the Flash Crash for an example. HFT is really something only the biggest firms can do so taxing the activity doesn't really hurt anyone who can't afford it. Also, making loan and aid money more generally available has already fueled the meteoric rise of tuition costs in America. Claiming Sanders plan might also increase costs doesn't really say anything new, and is a bit disingenuous to suggest he would somehow forget other costs. Sanders co-sponsored the Post 9/11 GI Bill, which is the college benefits program for veterans, so I think hes got a little experience in the subject. But yeah, the finals will end up looking very different from the initial requests, and neither candidate will get what they want. There are many posters who don't seem to get that even at her best Hillary is going to run into many of the same problems Sanders will.
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Feb 5, 2016 09:45
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Typo posted:So is bernie making Hiliary to be a goldmansucks shill working or are people just kinda shrugging it off Of course not. She did that herself.
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Feb 5, 2016 10:27
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Mostly Lurking posted:Of course not. She did that herself. Okay just to geek out for a second on the campaign skills of Sanders, I think that's the expert political skill of Bernie. He has traditionally been a master politicians by getting the opponent to entangle themselves on their own lovely behavior. It's almost a Yoda like skill in how long he's been doing exactly what was seen in tonight's debate. Getting the corrupt opponent to complain about their own corruption label being unfair. Right down to the booing crowd. 1981: quote:Sanders cleaned up for the second debate at the Unitarian Church on March 1. He wore a sport jacket, white button down shirt, no tie, black-framed round glasses. Mayor Paquette -- a tall, stout fellow -- cast an imposing figure in gray suit and tie. The discussion was civil until Sanders goaded Gordie for getting cozy with developers who wanted to build condominiums on Burlington’s Lake Champlain waterfront. “I’m not with the big money men,” he yelled. “He’s trying to put me with them.” 1990: quote:In 1990 Sanders challenged incumbent Republican Peter Smith for Vermont’s lone House seat... Two weeks before the election, Smith ran a starkly negative ad. It portrayed Sanders saying he was “physically nauseated” by JFK’s “Ask not” Inaugural address, and it insinuated he supported Fidel Castro against Democrats in Congress. Vermont reporters proceeded to pick apart the ad and show it distorted Sanders’s positions. Newspaper editorials demanded Smith take down the ads. Sanders beat him by 16 percentage points. 1996: quote:When Sanders ran for reelection for the third time in 1996, Republicans had had enough of the semi—socialist in the House. The national GOP threw in hundreds of thousands in campaign cash to knock him off. “We’re going to pull out all the stops [to bring down] that god-awful Bernie Sanders,” said then-Rep. Bill Paxon, head of the Republican Congressional Campaign Committee. Still, Sanders stood strong in the polls. The GOP sicced a private investigator on the case. She phoned Sanders’s first wife to try and mine some mud. As I learned reporting the biography, his ex-wife put off the P.I. and phoned Sanders, who called the press, who called out Republicans for violating Vermont standards. Sanders prevailed. It's fashionable to dismiss Sanders as a principled man in over his head, but I think he's actually strategically cunning and far better at knowing how to destroy corrupt opponents with shrewd tactics. I think the guy knows what he's doing better than most second guessing him which is why he's gotten this far.
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Feb 5, 2016 10:47
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Logikv9 posted:How does the 10 hours stack up to normal student work study? It depends, but I think it the hours alone sounds fine unless you go to a high pressure sadness factory. They do tend to pay terribly i.e. below or at minimum so on that end they suck poo poo. There won't be enough work study to go around--every university I have been at undergrads are killing themselves for an awful data entry jobs at $8 an hour--so perhaps some other work? There aren't thousands of things to do. Bass Bottles posted:Hillary wants a scholarship that stops anyone from needing loans, with free tuition at community colleges. Bernie wants free tuition at all state schools. (BUT, he's only talking about tuition specifically. Hillary's plan considers room and board, books, meal plans, etc). I am not going to parse her plan, but nearly all community colleges are commuter schools where no one lives on campus. Lots of states have urban nonflagship campuses (University of Illinois-Chicago vs. the land grant Illinois-Urbana) are also largely commuter and tend to be much more expensive, but I don't know if those are included. That said, "community college only" is lame--Europe has many universities that rival the Ivys that are free or near free to attend. The US has a sprawling university system: may as well use it.
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Feb 5, 2016 10:54
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Yudo posted:It depends, but I think it the hours alone sounds fine unless you go to a high pressure sadness factory. They do tend to pay terribly i.e. below or at minimum so on that end they suck poo poo. Maybe Hillary can take on Newt Gingrich's idea of "light janitorial duty" for students. That one went over well.
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Feb 5, 2016 11:56
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Fruity Rudy posted:It's fashionable to dismiss Sanders as a principled man in over his head, but I think he's actually strategically cunning and far better at knowing how to destroy corrupt opponents with shrewd tactics. I think the guy knows what he's doing better than most second guessing him which is why he's gotten this far. I agree and I think its a palatable message that lobbying works like advertising; nobody believes it affects themselves but they drat well know it affects other people. In this case I think voters may be inclined to believe that Hillary must in some way be influenced by that money.
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Feb 5, 2016 14:34
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Yoshifan823 posted:Chris Matthews asked her "now aren't you glad you legalized this debate" right after they switched over, they didn't show her face though. 
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Feb 5, 2016 15:11
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Not a Step posted:I think the current federal work study cap is 10 hours a week. I'm not 100% certain though, because my position in college (TFA) was exempt from the cap. But where I went work study hours were a condition for receiving the massive aid packages they handed out, not a meaningful source of income. When I was in community college back before I decided to join the Navy I did a full 40 hour work week on top of college and still barely made ends meet and needed support from my parents. 10 hours of work study a week would likely be a requirement to qualify for aid, not real income on its own. There's not unlimited work-study jobs, though. So does that mean only 50-100 kids at every college get to be part of Hillary's tuition-assistance program every semester?
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Feb 5, 2016 16:21
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EugeneJ posted:There's not unlimited work-study jobs, though. So does that mean only 50-100 kids at every college get to be part of Hillary's tuition-assistance program every semester? Depends on how shes using the work-study requirement. If its just a community involvement requirement, the local college where I live now has a 40 hour community service requirement as a condition for its more generous aid packages. Or did last summer when I worked for a volunteer management nonprofit at least. I think its a great idea to require involvement in the community as part of an education and wish that were pushed over work study to be honest. Getting out and seeing the actual community is going to do far more for a person than grilling sandwiches at the student union, but grilling sandwiches/filing paperwork is at least providing a useful service so thats fine too. If she wants work-study to be a 'skin in the game' litmus like the 90s welfare reforms, thats dumb as gently caress because as you say there just arent enough jobs to go round without getting extremely inefficient. Some kids are just going to get left out in the cold who need the aid. You could maybe do a waiver program if there arent enough jobs, but then some people receive a benefit without working and fairness becomes an issue. If she wants work-study to be a legitimate revenue component of any aid plan loving lol because that will never work. Work-study hours bring in just enough money to keep a student in snacks and basic supplies, its not something you can fund an education on. So basically I'd hope for the first one but, given Hillary's record, expect the second. The third one would be a component of some dumb Republican plan, assuming they cared about education in the first place.
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Feb 5, 2016 16:50
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Not a Step posted:Depends on how shes using the work-study requirement. If its just a community involvement requirement, the local college where I live now has a 40 hour community service requirement as a condition for its more generous aid packages. Or did last summer when I worked for a volunteer management nonprofit at least. I think its a great idea to require involvement in the community as part of an education and wish that were pushed over work study to be honest. Getting out and seeing the actual community is going to do far more for a person than grilling sandwiches at the student union, but grilling sandwiches/filing paperwork is at least providing a useful service so thats fine too. Even if it includes private sector jobs, in small college towns where there's nothing but 5 restaurants and a Wal-Mart, you're not going to find 5,000 kids employment every semester.
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Feb 5, 2016 16:55
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EugeneJ posted:Even if it includes private sector jobs, in small college towns where there's nothing but 5 restaurants and a Wal-Mart, you're not going to find 5,000 kids employment every semester. Yeah but it'd be cool to see 5,000 kids pump 40 hours each semester into community outreach. It'd be a great day to see college kids scrabbling over who got coveted preschool volunteer slots. E: And if the town isnt big enough to support that, then summer volunteering could be a thing so students could go home and make an impact there. Just track your hours, get someone to sign off on it, and there you go. And since tracking hours is one of the biggest hurdles for a lot of volunteer organizations a bunch of students clamoring for it might force them to invest a little effort into building up their volunteer organization infrastructure, which would pay huge dividends in terms of getting and keeping volunteers and advertising to the community/national organizations how much good work they do to bring in more funds. Nix Panicus has issued a correction as of 17:06 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 17:00
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Not a Step posted:Yeah but it'd be cool to see 5,000 kids pump 40 hours each semester into community outreach. It'd be a great day to see college kids scrabbling over who got coveted preschool volunteer slots. But I think the idea is that Hillary wants the kids to pay (in part) for their own tuition - volunteer work doesn't do that
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Feb 5, 2016 17:14
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Powercrazy posted:Well you see she is a pragmatic progressive centrist democrat. You can oppose the death penalty for citizens and approve it for terrorists, crazy.
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Feb 5, 2016 17:15
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Yudo posted:It depends, but I think it the hours alone sounds fine unless you go to a high pressure sadness factory. They do tend to pay terribly i.e. below or at minimum so on that end they suck poo poo. Her plan isn't limited to community colleges, just the "free tuition" part is.
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Feb 5, 2016 17:24
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Yoshifan823 posted:This. I've gotten the impression that Bernie thinks that he is socialist messiah and will create the revolution single-handedly (I should say, as the leader and catalyst, not completely alone). https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/694243178833014784 Bernie Sanders in the NH Town Hall earlier this week posted:But here is the major point that I want to make. And I will continue to do that. But here is the truth, and it's an unpleasant truth, and I know that not everybody here will agree with me. http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/03/politics/democratic-town-hall-transcript/ Bernie Sanders in a 2014 interview with Bill Moyers posted:BERNIE SANDERS: I have lot of respect for Barack Obama. But, his biggest mistake is that, after running a brilliant campaign in 2008, where millions of people in fact were galvanized, young people, people of color came out and said, 'Hey, we're going to make some real change.' The day after the election he said, okay, thank you very much. Now I'm going to work inside the Beltway and we're going to start negotiating with Republicans and all that stuff. The simple truth is, in my view, nothing gets done unless millions and millions of people will demand it. Politics is 365 days a year. http://billmoyers.com/episode/bernie-sanders-breaking-big-moneys-grip-elections/ He's been saying for a long time that the kind of reforms he wants aren't going to happen unless millions of people join in the political process to demand it. Now, he should certainly speak to how people who have been jaded or disinterested in politics can do that, but acting like he's got some kind of messiah complex is just being obtuse. MeatwadIsGod has issued a correction as of 17:41 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 17:25
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Yoshifan823 posted:This. I've gotten the impression that Bernie thinks that he is socialist messiah and will create the revolution single-handedly (I should say, as the leader and catalyst, not completely alone). Yeah when I think of arrogant, overly self-important politicians Bernie is definitely somewhere at the top and not literally below basically everyone else in American politics ever.
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Feb 5, 2016 17:52
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Who does this Bernie guy think he is?Traveling around America making speeches, printing signs and bumper stickers with his name on them?!
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Feb 5, 2016 17:59
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My Imaginary GF posted:You can oppose the death penalty for citizens and approve it for terrorists, crazy. Actually you should oppose it for everyone.
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Feb 5, 2016 18:05
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Vhak lord of hate posted:Actually you should oppose it for everyone. But America has such a great track record for correctly identifying terrorists! 
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Feb 5, 2016 18:09
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 https://twitter.com/HowardKurtz/status/695658514686025728
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Feb 5, 2016 18:29
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EugeneJ posted:But I think the idea is that Hillary wants the kids to pay (in part) for their own tuition - volunteer work doesn't do that That was my unlabeled third option from the previous post, and if Hillary thinks work study will be an actual revenue source for students thats hilariously dumb and something a Republican would cook up. If Im not arguing in completely bad faith I have to concede thats probably not what she meant, and she really wants work study to be more of a qualifier for aid like the 90s welfare reforms. Still a terrible idea, but not as objectively stupid.
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Feb 5, 2016 18:57
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Not a Step posted:That was my unlabeled third option from the previous post, and if Hillary thinks work study will be an actual revenue source for students thats hilariously dumb and something a Republican would cook up. If Im not arguing in completely bad faith I have to concede thats probably not what she meant, and she really wants work study to be more of a qualifier for aid like the 90s welfare reforms. Still a terrible idea, but not as objectively stupid. Kids working minimum wage 10 hours/week and not getting to keep any of the money won't exactly go over well with young voters
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Feb 5, 2016 19:09
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EugeneJ posted:Kids working minimum wage 10 hours/week and not getting to keep any of the money won't exactly go over well with young voters Work study is already a thing. I think I might like Bernie's education plan better, but people are being weirdly hard on Hillary in unfair ways by either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstanding her plan. What's funny is that it seems to come from a persecution complex. "People are doing bad thing to Bernie!!" *Does it to Hillary*
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Feb 5, 2016 19:35
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Vhak lord of hate posted:Actually you should oppose it for everyone. "Let terrorists live" isn't a winning electoral issue. The American people have spoken, and they have spoken repeatedly: they want terrorists dead.
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Feb 5, 2016 19:40
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Bass Bottles posted:Work study is already a thing. Speaking from my own point of view, I find Hillary's plan distasteful because it lionizes "working to put yourself through college" while paying no heed to the reality that having to work for money while in college is a very disadvantageous position to be in. The college experience caters almost exclusively to the more affluent middle class (and above), and the time a first-generation or working-class student has to put in to work that likely has little to nothing to do with their field of study is time that their peers (who do not have to work for the money) spend taking advantage of very relevant extracurricular activities and other unpaid opportunities that are very, very valuable on their resumes (in addition to the networking they're able to do through these things).
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Feb 5, 2016 20:01
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Oh Snapple! posted:Speaking from my own point of view, I find Hillary's plan distasteful because it lionizes "working to put yourself through college" while paying no heed to the reality that having to work for money while in college is a very disadvantageous position to be in. The college experience caters almost exclusively to the more affluent middle class (and above), and the time a first-generation or working-class student has to put in to work that likely has little to nothing to do with their field of study is time that their peers (who do not have to work for the money) spend taking advantage of very relevant extracurricular activities and other unpaid opportunities that are very, very valuable on their resumes (in addition to the networking they're able to do through these things). You can do all of those things at once if you cut out the time you spend drinking and getting high.
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Feb 5, 2016 20:03
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EugeneJ posted:Kids working minimum wage 10 hours/week and not getting to keep any of the money won't exactly go over well with young voters I'm really confused about Hillary's plan. My experience in college was that the vast majority of students already worked jobs to help pay for books and housing and just stuff they wanted. So what Hillary wants is for college kids to work more hours to pay for stuff they are already working to pay for? Quickly looked up this article to support my own experience. Doorknob Slobber has issued a correction as of 20:10 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 20:04
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My Imaginary GF posted:You can do all of those things at once if you cut out the time you spend drinking and getting high. Damned MIGF is the War, he is every assertion the loving War has ever made--that we are meant for work and government, for austerity: and these shall take priority over love, dreams, the spirit, the senses and the other second-class trivia that are found among the idle and mindless hours of the day....drat them, they are wrong. They are insane.
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Feb 5, 2016 20:11
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Oh Snapple! posted:Speaking from my own point of view, I find Hillary's plan distasteful because it lionizes "working to put yourself through college" while paying no heed to the reality that having to work for money while in college is a very disadvantageous position to be in. The college experience caters almost exclusively to the more affluent middle class (and above), and the time a first-generation or working-class student has to put in to work that likely has little to nothing to do with their field of study is time that their peers (who do not have to work for the money) spend taking advantage of very relevant extracurricular activities and other unpaid opportunities that are very, very valuable on their resumes (in addition to the networking they're able to do through these things). Those students will still have to work under Bernie's plan, though, because tuition is just one part of what makes college so expensive. If they want to live in the dorms they'll have to work more than 10 hours, most likely. If everything were to work out exactly as planned, Hillary's plan could theoretically allow more first generation and working class students to go to good schools of their choice. Bernie's plan would help commuter students more than anyone else. But his plan is also more simple, so I do wonder if it's actually more feasible. Free tuition would definitely be a huge thing, and as he points out on his website, lots of other countries have made that exact move recently, with good success.
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Feb 5, 2016 20:12
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I think the main complaint most people have about college right now is coming out of college and owning way too much money in student loans. Then not being able to find a job that pays enough to pay those off the way they ask and also do the other stuff you want to do out of college like have a family and be able to afford to feed your children.
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Feb 5, 2016 20:18
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Bass Bottles posted:Those students will still have to work under Bernie's plan, though, because tuition is just one part of what makes college so expensive. If they want to live in the dorms they'll have to work more than 10 hours, most likely. I should note that my experience actually is that of a commuter student - and for a few years I basically lost 3 hours of my time a day on that commute, since I lived in a smaller town about ~20 miles away from campus and had to organize my time around the school's transit system and the fact that I could very well be stuck waiting around on one of the shuttles for 20-30 minutes, and it only became better once I got fed up with it and took out extra money on my loans for a parking deck pass. Not ideal, but poo poo it was nice cutting that 3 hours down to 1. That said, I didn't take into account dorm costs, and that is a problem, though my issue remains more the lionization of working through college in itself. The effort might be admirable, but it's not a positive by any means, and attempting to tie tuition to it didn't sit well with me when I heard it from Clinton some time back. It struck me as a very wrong way to think about college.
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Feb 5, 2016 20:35
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My Imaginary GF posted:You can do all of those things at once if you cut out the time you spend drinking and getting high. So if I don't care about socializing and my mental well being?
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Feb 5, 2016 20:37
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Philip Rivers posted:So if I don't care about socializing and my mental well being? Have you ever tried talking to people... without drinking? Radical concept I know.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:01
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Reason posted:I think the main complaint most people have about college right now is coming out of college and owning way too much money in student loans. Then not being able to find a job that pays enough to pay those off the way they ask and also do the other stuff you want to do out of college like have a family and be able to afford to feed your children. Take AP and CLEP courses in addition to junior college classes during highschool. It's already free to do so; unfortunately, too many entitled white kids are finding that their skin color is not enough to make up for their lack of teenage motiviation for personal development, leading them to support Sanders' candidacy.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:04
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Not a Step posted:Have you ever tried talking to people... without drinking? Radical concept I know. This is a good direction for the conversation to go
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Feb 5, 2016 21:04
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Philip Rivers posted:So if I don't care about socializing and my mental well being? Have you considered that college may not be the right option for you?
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Feb 5, 2016 21:05
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Not a Step posted:Have you ever tried talking to people... without drinking? Radical concept I know. The "time spent drinking and getting high" is usually the same time I spend socializing with friends. Removing alcohol/weed from that equation won't make me any more productive, because I'm already doing something else (hanging out with friends instead of working/doing schoolwork). My Imaginary GF posted:Have you considered that college may not be the right option for you? I'm an honors physics student and I'm going to graduate in June. 
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Feb 5, 2016 21:05
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Philip Rivers posted:The "time spent drinking and getting high" is usually the same time I spend socializing with friends. Removing alcohol/weed from that equation won't make me any more productive, because I'm already doing something else (hanging out with friends instead of working/doing schoolwork). You're complaining that you can't get high and drink all day without consequence. Do you know how you sound? Like a drat hippie.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:12
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My Imaginary GF posted:You're complaining that you can't get high and drink all day without consequence. Do you know how you sound? Uh, I'm a good student because I spend a lot of time doing schoolwork. Having to work in addition to that in order to pay my way through college means either my schoolwork would suffer or I wouldn't have any time to relax/spend with friends.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:14
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