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I felt FFVII's story would've been stronger if it was Jenova pulling the strings all along. But SE seems quite intent on saying, "no no, it was Sephiroth in control all along! HE was manipulating JENOVA!" Which just... doesn't really make a lot of sense.
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Sep 9, 2016 18:20
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Schwartzcough posted:I felt FFVII's story would've been stronger if it was Jenova pulling the strings all along. But SE seems quite intent on saying, "no no, it was Sephiroth in control all along! HE was manipulating JENOVA!" Which just... doesn't really make a lot of sense. This is one of the reasons why the concept of the Death of the Author exists. gently caress what Square has to say about the story post-facto. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck....
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Sep 9, 2016 20:44
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CheeseThief posted:Cloud's natural 20 backstab
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Sep 9, 2016 21:14
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nine-gear crow posted:This is one of the reasons why the concept of the Death of the Author exists. gently caress what Square has to say about the story post-facto. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck.... And that led me to TVTropes, where I lost 2 hours of my life. But yeah, i don't count anything past FF7 as Canon.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:26
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Silegna posted:And that led me to TVTropes, where I lost 2 hours of my life. Oh god, I'm so sorry. How much  did you encounter?
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Sep 10, 2016 02:45
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nine-gear crow posted:This is one of the reasons why the concept of the Death of the Author exists. gently caress what Square has to say about the story post-facto. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck.... i dunno ff7 makes it pretty clear who's calling the shots and it's not jenova
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Sep 10, 2016 08:57
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Cocksmith posted:i dunno ff7 makes it pretty clear who's calling the shots and it's not jenova When and how does it make that clear?
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Sep 10, 2016 09:06
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Sephiroth in FF7 goes from a reasonable veteran solider (for like 30 seconds of screentime), to an obsessed madman ranting about his mommy and how unfair the world is (until he gets thrown into the lifestream), to a monster that speaks in gibberish and wants to destroy the world and obtain ultimate power... for some reason. I always thought it was pretty clear when his motivation switched to "cosmic horror".
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Sep 10, 2016 09:15
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Schwartzcough posted:When and how does it make that clear? hojo in the northern crater. plus iirc sephiroth straight up calls jenova useless around that time as well.
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Sep 10, 2016 11:45
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Hojo's completely insane, he's not exactly the most reliable narrator, especially on something related to whether or not an experiment of his own had succeeded. E: Like, of all games to take what a character said at face value
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Sep 10, 2016 13:33
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he was actually admitting to being wrong when he said it though. it doesn't really matter though. by the time of ff7 the line between jenova and sephiroth is so blurred that they may as well be one being.
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Sep 10, 2016 13:38
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Cocksmith posted:he was actually admitting to being wrong when he said it though. This seems to be the official line. The idea is that Jenova is a creature of instinct, which overtakes and imitates life form to self-perpetuate virus style. Sephiroth is overtaken by that instinct, but takes it to a more elaborate level due to having human intellect. Sephiroth might be 'in charge', but he's essentially acting like a more deliberate form of Jenova so the difference is moot. And really even if you want to toss the explanations the game gives (which is fair, the narrators are all unreliable even before trying to account for anything lost in translation), dramatically the one you're chasing through the whole game is Sephiroth. The hero of the Wutai War died that day in the Nibelheim reactor; either by literally dying when tossed into the lifestream with Jenova animating/imitating a corpse, or by tossing away the person he was before and becoming the monster that haunts Cloud's nightmares in Final Fantasy VII proper. Whether you're fighting some transformed, monstrous Sephiroth in the FFVII's endgame or some space alien taking Sephiroth's form, Cloud perceives it as Sephiroth, and the climax of the game is him excising 'Sephiroth's' influence from him, whatever the being he's been calling Sephiroth happens to be.
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Sep 10, 2016 22:12
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The super man formerly known as Sephiroth.
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Sep 11, 2016 03:54
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Wait, so Jenova is basically the Thing?
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Oct 2, 2016 12:58
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Jenova is indeed The Thing. I believe there's a hidden recording in FF7, showing Proffessor Gast and Aerith's mother discussing the end of the Ancients. Meteor lands and kills a bunch of Ancients in the impact, only for the dead to start walking. The Ancients then burn through most of their power to seal/destroy them all. This means that Jenova is indeed an Ancient, or at least an Ancient's corpse infested with an alien parasite disease.
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Oct 2, 2016 17:42
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The Watercrown posted:Jenova is indeed The Thing. I believe there's a hidden recording in FF7, showing Proffessor Gast and Aerith's mother discussing the end of the Ancients. Meteor lands and kills a bunch of Ancients in the impact, only for the dead to start walking. The Ancients then burn through most of their power to seal/destroy them all. This means that Jenova is indeed an Ancient, or at least an Ancient's corpse infested with an alien parasite disease. Er, not quite. Jenova itself WAS the "cataclysm from the skies," possibly arriving on a meteor and creating the northern crater. It used its ability to change its appearance and affect minds to start impersonating and killing off the Cetra/Ancients. The few remaining Cetra managed to contain Jenova. until ShinRa dug it up. Apparently Jenova could also infect things, turning them into monsters. But Jenova was never an Ancient; it is an alien.
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Oct 2, 2016 21:49
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Schwartzcough posted:Er, not quite. Jenova itself WAS the "cataclysm from the skies," possibly arriving on a meteor and creating the northern crater. It used its ability to change its appearance and affect minds to start impersonating and killing off the Cetra/Ancients. The few remaining Cetra managed to contain Jenova. until ShinRa dug it up. Apparently Jenova could also infect things, turning them into monsters. But Jenova was never an Ancient; it is Hojo'd it for you.
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Oct 4, 2016 06:16
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Schwartzcough posted:Er, not quite. Jenova itself WAS the "cataclysm from the skies," possibly arriving on a meteor and creating the northern crater. It used its ability to change its appearance and affect minds to start impersonating and killing off the Cetra/Ancients. The few remaining Cetra managed to contain Jenova. until ShinRa dug it up. Apparently Jenova could also infect things, turning them into monsters. But Jenova was never an Ancient; it is an alien. The Ancients and the WEAPONs  . Let's not forget that lovable goonsquad of monstrosities. The Lifestream specifically crafted them to gently caress Jenova's poo poo up, after all.
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Oct 4, 2016 09:09
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weee grinding towards the end but I'll make it. Really going to try to get an update out this week. We really aren't that far from the end at this point. Life has just been busy as gently caress/mildly dramatic!
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Nov 8, 2016 05:43
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Hope things have settled down a bit then, looking forward to seeing the conclusion of this, it's been a more interesting ride than I honestly expected when this started out!
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Nov 8, 2016 11:20
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Yeah, hope all is well Nashun! Looking forward to seeing the end of this.nine-gear crow posted:The Ancients and the WEAPONs Oh the WEAPONS; they never seem to make sense. They were IN the Northern Crater when they woke up, so if they were supposed to gently caress up Jenova (and presumably Sephiroth, since they're basically one unit at that point), why did they leave the Northern Crater and go rampaging? Some people argue they're supposed to just attack all threats to the planet, and so they go after humans because rah rah environmental message. But honestly the WEAPONs didn't wake up until poo poo was going down with Sephiroth and Jenova and Meteor, so it doesn't really make sense for them to go after humans as a threat when clearly the bigger threat is Jenova and Meteor. I don't remember where it came from in-game, but the impression I always got was that the Planet sent the WEAPONs off to generally rampage and kill stuff. The Planet knew a big injury was coming and that it needed lots of lifestream juice to deal with the wound. And where does lifestream come from? Stuff dying. The Planet wanted to, uh, "liquidate" its living assets so it could not die from the Meteor impact.
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Nov 16, 2016 07:02
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I was under the impression that the Weapons didn't go after Sephiroth and Jenova because of that huge barrier that was around Sephiroth. That doesn't explain why Ultima, Ruby, and Emerald don't immediately rain fury on him once the Sister Ray destroys said barrier, though. I also have no idea what was up with Jade Weapon.
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Nov 16, 2016 07:05
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:I was under the impression that the Weapons didn't go after Sephiroth and Jenova because of that huge barrier that was around Sephiroth. That doesn't explain why Ultima, Ruby, and Emerald don't immediately rain fury on him once the Sister Ray destroys said barrier, though. But again, at least some of them were already in the northern crater. They had to leave before the barrier would get in their way. It's weird.
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Nov 16, 2016 07:29
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Schwartzcough posted:But again, at least some of them were already in the northern crater. They had to leave before the barrier would get in their way. It's weird. Yeah, the Emerald WEAPON was moving through the planet's crust basically stalking Jenova, as we'll soon see. Plus there's the deal with the Jade WEAPON, but who actually gives a wet gently caress about Before Crisis, anyway? I think, at the bare minimum, Sapphire was already there at the crater, because it's the one we see behind the wall of materia, and the other four just sort of converged on the crater once it became clear that that's where Jenova was headed. Then they all got the hell out of there before the barrier went up and they were trapped in there with her. Though that's just me talking out of my rear end and  -ing it like crazy. Who the hell knows. Maybe the remake will clear it up. Probably not.E: I kant reed. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 10:23
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On the topic of WEAPONs not focusing on Northern Crater, it's possible they simply couldn't distinguish between Sephiroth and the whole chunks of Jenova, and human experiment 79 that Hojo deemed a failure and just dumped on the streets in random town. If every entity with Jenova cells is indistinguishable from the others, the WEAPONs would just roam the world, crushing whichever cities had the most failed Sephiroth clones in it's alleys.
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Nov 17, 2016 07:02
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Nashun posted:weee grinding towards the end but I'll make it. Really going to try to get an update out this week. We really aren't that far from the end at this point. Life has just been busy as gently caress/mildly dramatic! Hope all is well, looking forward to a new update when you can get to it!
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Dec 23, 2016 04:32
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I hope Nashun is doing alright.
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Feb 20, 2017 19:13
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