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FilthyImp posted:I don't know what's funnier: Zero Percent is a start up from Chicago that does good work, my program worked with them https://app.zeropercent.us/mission.jsp
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Mar 24, 2016 20:00
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OwlFancier posted:Then for the purposes of this discussion I will state that in the UK the middle class are not queuing round the block for food banks despite them being more than capable of getting food out of them with some basic dishonesty. Here there are three main things to prevent abuse. 1. You need a government referral to use them. If a social worker did not go over this with you and give you one, no food for you! Virtually all of them require this and you'll get slapped down if you don't have it. The few that don't are generally food banks that serve specific communities. In that case they already know everyone, and they are specifically in very lovely low income areas, the ones they serve! They usually have lists of the people they do serve, and often deliver the food to them. 2. The food sucks. It's horrible, and you have no control over what's there. You do not want to be eating this. The ones that require the government referral are better by leaps and bounds, but still kinda bad. The ones that don't drop off borderline starvation rations of the cheapest possible crap once a month. You'd rather eat prison food. 3. There is a massive social stigma about this. You don't want to be seen there or have anybody know you use it. And all it takes is one person seeing you there for word to get out. The rumor that you are having "money problems" is enough to ruin jobs and friendships. You'd rather tell people you have herpes and bang your dog. So by a mix of means testing, lovely food, and social shaming middle class people and rich people either can't get free food or don't do it. You have to be willing to endure total shame, eat crap, and either have a slip from social services or someone who personally knows you and gives you food to get free food. The situation is nothing like "free government rations provided for the community, come and get them".
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Mar 24, 2016 20:04
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menino posted:Zero Percent is a start up from Chicago that does good work, my program worked with them
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Mar 24, 2016 20:09
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MysteriousStranger posted:Here there are three main things to prevent abuse. 1. Again, no you don't here. They're entirely nongovernmental and you don't need a referral to use them. 2. The food is basic, but it's donated by people who buy it from supermarkets, and it is often distributed as you would generally buy your own groceries. They prefer longer lasting food for ease of storage but it is exactly the same food that most people live day to day on. You won't get caviar but you'll get a perfectly good set of groceries out of it if you go. 3. On this point you may be right. I don't know, I'm not middle class enough to know how their social niceties function. However I would suggest that if this is the case then it more than makes up for the complete absence of the previous two. If people have a stick up their rear end about bootstrapping their way through life and don't want to take anything for free if they can avoid it, OK. That's fine. Long may you not take things you don't need. Now let's throw the lovely food only after a song and dance bullshit out the window and rely on perfectly functional fear of judgement to police our free food services.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:11
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wateroverfire posted:edit: nvm.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:14
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OwlFancier posted:1. Again, no you don't here. They're entirely nongovernmental and you don't need a referral to use them. This is how it is in most places... Oklahoma spends nothing on food banks, and they certainly aren't helping the private ones identify who is and isn't working. Food banks that deny people usually do so because they have narrowed their targets. ("Only women" "only families" etc.) A food bank that serves the general public isn't going to turn away a starving person because they can't furnish a paystub and a utility bill. They are not going to stand in the way of a homeless person eating because they couldn't get a note from their social worker. Reality does not fit wateroverfire's (or most libertarian's) narrative so he is just going to willfully deny it quote:2. The food is basic, but it's donated by people who buy it from supermarkets, and it is often distributed as you would generally buy your own groceries. They prefer longer lasting food for ease of storage but it is exactly the same food that most people live day to day on. You won't get caviar but you'll get a perfectly good set of groceries out of it if you go. Just to bootstrap this comment to make a point, IMO this is why wateroverfire's "everyone will just take the free poo poo!" argument does not hold any water at all. Not everybody likes white rice and pinto beans. The post office isn't going to give me free basmati and chickpeas. If I can afford better I will buy my own goddamn staples like I do already. (and so will most people, for that matter) Mirthless fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 20:22
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Means-testing is not as bad of a waste of money as other measures used to make the provided service more degrading than conditions of poverty already are, but it is still a waste of money, and still annoys me, as a taxpayer.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:25
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I said it in the other thread but there is nothing stopping you from going down to the nearest public washroom or water fountain and filling up a few 10 gallon jugs instead of paying your water bill. Unlimited supply does not create a matching demand.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:26
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Doc Hawkins posted:Means-testing is not as bad of a waste of money as other measures used ensure the provided service is as degrading as possible, but it is still a waste of money, and still annoys me, as a taxpayer. It really feels like a situation of "Let's spend the money we would spend feeding a dozen or more people to stop each individual case of fraud" Mirthless fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 20:26
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MysteriousStranger posted:Here there are three main things to prevent abuse. http://www.northwestharvest.org/cherry-street-food-bank "Proof of address, income or need is never required. Clients are asked only for: • last name • total number of people in the family • number of family members who are infants, children, adults or seniors" They do have days devoted to family needs though.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:28
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OwlFancier posted:I said it in the other thread but there is nothing stopping you from going down to the nearest public washroom or water fountain and filling up a few 10 gallon jugs instead of paying your water bill. Unlimited supply does not create a matching demand. For people who live out in the suburbs there is, the gas costs enough that the water is a wash. Counter point, my office has unlimited tea and coffee, thus the majority of people do not go to Starbucks. Furthermore there is often left over food from various meetings, if people can grab the leftover food rather than going to the cafeteria or out for lunch they will. People will take something for free if they can, it doesn't suck, and there is no stigma attached to it.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:30
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Sounds like your workplace needs a department devoted to making sure no one "abuses" the free leftovers.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:32
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MysteriousStranger posted:For people who live out in the suburbs there is, the gas costs enough that the water is a wash. Counter point, my office has unlimited tea and coffee, thus the majority of people do not go to Starbucks. Furthermore there is often left over food from various meetings, if people can grab the leftover food rather than going to the cafeteria or out for lunch they will. did you seriously just compare free dry rice and beans for poor people to the tex-mex catering your boss orders in for conference calls?
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Mar 24, 2016 20:34
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MysteriousStranger posted:For people who live out in the suburbs there is, the gas costs enough that the water is a wash. Counter point, my office has unlimited tea and coffee, thus the majority of people do not go to Starbucks. Furthermore there is often left over food from various meetings, if people can grab the leftover food rather than going to the cafeteria or out for lunch they will. Does the first person generally take all of the tea and coffee and all of the leftover food and hoard it in their houses so that nobody else can have any? Or do they just take what they are going to use? Even if we assume that everyone will go to the food distro joint and get their free 10lb sacks of rice, who cares? The US could afford to give everyone enough rice to build a fort out with ease if it wanted to.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:34
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spoon0042 posted:Sounds like your workplace needs a department devoted to making sure no one "abuses" the free leftovers. We do. Office services will yank it as fast as possible and pull it back to the kitchen, people have been fired for taking food before clients left. Still happens! And when office services takes it back to the kitchen they eat it, which is why having an in with office services is good, you don't have to pay for lunch or breakfast ever again on work days. And if you stay later on days with evening meetings, you can sneak home a whole weeks worth of food if there was a big one.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:36
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MysteriousStranger posted:Counter point, my office has unlimited tea and coffee, thus the majority of people do not go to Starbucks. Furthermore there is often left over food from various meetings, if people can grab the leftover food rather than going to the cafeteria or out for lunch they will. Alternately, your coworkers are ensuring that the supply of food is put to use instead of being left out to rot. Whether it's an optimal application is another question (because gently caress Tim from accounting for grabbing 3 turkey bacon sandwiches the greedy gently caress).
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Mar 24, 2016 20:38
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OwlFancier posted:Does the first person generally take all of the tea and coffee and all of the leftover food and hoard it in their houses so that nobody else can have any? There's unlimited tea and coffee. As for the food, the first people generally take all the good stuff and if you aren't there right off the bat there will be nothing left worth eating or you risk getting caught. Just means people watch it like a hawk when it's out and forces the clean up crews to try and get there asap. I'm not against free food for the public. I'd be all for free basic food stuffs sent to everyone. However I'm sure if people see "free food stuff that doesn't suck, no shame here, come get it" a lot of people will take advantage of it. I'd be all for the post office giving out rice, beans, chicken, veggies, and cheese via delivery though.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:40
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Apparently the US could afford to buy every single man woman and child in the US a 10lb sack of rice from wal-mart every week for about 10% of its total current welfare budget.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:42
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OwlFancier posted:Apparently the US could afford to buy every single man woman and child in the US a 10lb sack of rice from wal-mart every week for about 10% of its total current welfare budget. WalMart sells rice?
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Mar 24, 2016 20:46
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It lists it online, I dunno, I've never been in one. ASDA sells all kinds of rice.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:50
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Why would any office or business be obligated to support the economy of the nearest Starbucks? Oh poo poo I bring my own coffee and lunch, I didn't realize I was ruining the free market.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:54
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Bast Relief posted:Why would any office or business be obligated to support the economy of the nearest Starbucks? Oh poo poo I bring my own coffee and lunch, I didn't realize I was ruining the free market. People unironically argue that food banks undermine the commercial interests of grocery stores.
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Mar 24, 2016 20:58
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Subjunctive posted:People unironically argue that food banks undermine the commercial interests of grocery stores. Really? Who did that?, so I can point and laugh at whoever it is.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:09
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Subjunctive posted:People unironically argue that food banks undermine the commercial interests of grocery stores. I can see how one might come to this conclusion, though I obviously don't see it this way. Have any studies been done on this, I wonder. I just feel like, for me, I'm going to keep spending a premium on lovingly harvested organic beans at the food co-op because I buy into that bs apparently, rather than get free post office beans. I'm just saying, free market being the free market, corporations will find ways to profit from food even if food is available for free. Whole foods managed to find a way into my wallet.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:11
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bring back government cheese
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Mar 24, 2016 21:13
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TheImmigrant posted:WalMart sells rice? uh Yes? Why wouldn't they???? OwlFancier posted:It lists it online, I dunno, I've never been in one. ASDA sells all kinds of rice. Yeah I have personally bought a 25 pound bag of rice from wal-mart before so I don't know what they're talking about And if you consider Sam's club to be wal-mart (I kind of do) it's one of the best places to buy rice Bast Relief posted:I can see how one might come to this conclusion, though I obviously don't see it this way. Have any studies been done on this, I wonder. I just feel like, for me, I'm going to keep spending a premium on lovingly harvested organic beans at the food co-op because I buy into that bs apparently, rather than get free post office beans. I'm just saying, free market being the free market, corporations will find ways to profit from food even if food is available for free. Whole foods managed to find a way into my wallet. Yeah I have cooked plain white rice about a dozen times in the last five years and every single one of those times was because we were in severe financial straits and couldn't afford to buy our normal rice (Jasmine or Basmati) We probably eat rice 3-4 nights a week in my house. We wouldn't take free plain white rice unless we were really, really broke. Mirthless fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 21:22
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Handing out free food to anyone who wants it in the US would probably create an incredible amount of food waste, if food waste is something that really bothers you. The reason why there is food waste in the first place is because food is pretty cheap. All of the whining about food waste earlier reminded me of conservatives spouting vague platitudes about government inefficiency--just useless commentary. We even had one person complain about how food was too expensive and then in the same breath complain about how modern farming practices and food processing, which are responsible for food prices being lower now than ever, are bad.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:26
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silence_kit posted:Handing out free food to anyone who wants it in the US would probably create an incredible amount of food waste, if food waste is something that really bothers you. The reason why there is food waste in the first place is because it is pretty cheap. It's pretty hard to waste dry goods like rice and beans. You cook what you need as you need it and the rest is good to sit on the shelf pretty much forever. This isn't like fresh produce or meat.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:27
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Bast Relief posted:I can see how one might come to this conclusion, though I obviously don't see it this way. Have any studies been done on this, I wonder. I just feel like, for me, I'm going to keep spending a premium on lovingly harvested organic beans at the food co-op because I buy into that bs apparently, rather than get free post office beans. I'm just saying, free market being the free market, corporations will find ways to profit from food even if food is available for free. Whole foods managed to find a way into my wallet. You'd probably see the value of the types of foods that are free fall to near nothing. Prices for stuff that isn't free would go up and there'd be a lot of advertising as to how that stuff is better, and why you should buy a premium version of free stuff because you aren't dirty riff raff. See bottled water. The ideal solution to "people need food, people need shelter" is just a universal basic income. Even that would have disruptions though.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:29
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^ Yeah okay, but what would really happen? I'm still buying my fancy locally grown in recycled manure beans for $$$. However, I'll agree to GMI for sure. Hey, at least it's less bad if food is wasted yet no one is going hungry? Bast Relief fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 21:34
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icantfindaname posted:The techbros are coming from inside the forums
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Mar 24, 2016 21:37
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Of course we have techbros defending themselves here. Who else has time to gently caress around on the internet while adding very little value to the world?
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Mar 24, 2016 21:40
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I'm confused why is redistribution bad again? I am very confused. It seems like being a decent human being that helps others is kind of work in and of itsel-silence_kit posted:Handing out free food to anyone who wants it in the US would probably create an incredible amount of food waste, if food waste is something that really bothers you. The reason why there is food waste in the first place is because food is pretty cheap. Now I am very confused, does the average consumer (or 72 consumers if you wanna compare at scale of average full-time employee) throw out more food than a supermarket on the daily?
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Mar 24, 2016 21:42
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Bast Relief posted:^ Yeah okay, but what would really happen? I'm still buying my fancy locally grown in recycled manure beans for $$$. However, I'll agree to GMI for sure. I mean, this is all hypothetical but... I make enough I can buy food from the fancy store. There's (in walking distance from my apartment) a Dean and Deluca, Whole Foods, Trader Joes, Target, and Safeway. Short drive takes me to fancy pants butchers, seafood, and an hmart and a Harris Teeter. Generally I buy the "basic crap" from Safeway, and go to the other places for specific higher end stuff because the food at Safeway is bad. If I had a basic government supply of beans, chicken, rice, frozen veggies, milk, cheese, potatoes, onions, flour that would mean I cease to buy anything at all from Safeway. I'd still buy the same higher end stuff from the higher end stores though, and the money saved would either go to fun stuff. On the other hand if I was given a "credit card that only works for food" or $$$$ basic income, I'd still shop at Safeway. I think universal income, or universal food stamps, are both workable solutions. It doesn't really disrupt the grocery market and if everyone has it the stigma of it goes away. I don't think it's politically possible, but it's the most viable solution out there.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:50
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How does Safeway exist anyway? Their produce is always half spoiled in my experience and they never have enough checkers. I go there for booze every once in awhile and always regret it. When I was hard up I put up with them until I discover Grocery Outlet.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:54
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Hey idiot you didn't answer my question Why do you want people to suffer?
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Mar 24, 2016 21:58
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:I'm confused why is redistribution bad again? I am very confused. It seems like being a decent human being that helps others is kind of work in and of itsel- Not saying it's bad, but the 50% of people with more than the median oppose it because everyone wants to keep their own poo poo. I'm sure you do too. There are legitimate reasons to confiscate the 40-odd% of my income that I pay, but I'm skeptical. Now give me all your poo poo, or else you're a shitlord.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:58
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Bast Relief posted:How does Safeway exist anyway? Their produce is always half spoiled in my experience and they never have enough checkers. I go there for booze every once in awhile and always regret it. When I was hard up I put up with them until I discover Grocery Outlet. For generic stuff (cereal, beans, rice, milk) this stuff doesn't matter. I go there and buy giant blocks of cheese, butter, milk, cereal, beans, blah blah. Then I roll up the street the next day and buy all my produce at whole foods. They exist here for people who can't afford whole paycheck and people who don't care if their beans are Goya rather than organic free range.
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Mar 24, 2016 22:00
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Bast Relief posted:How does Safeway exist anyway? Their produce is always half spoiled in my experience and they never have enough checkers. I go there for booze every once in awhile and always regret it. When I was hard up I put up with them until I discover Grocery Outlet.
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Mar 24, 2016 22:05
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I have patronized a variety of Safeways and frequently pee at the one in Sunol. I tried to buy a bag of chips there once and was unsuccessful. Thank you for listening.
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Mar 24, 2016 22:10
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