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CommieGIR posted:Gonna point out two things: One, that they are saying this person on screen represents Ukraine. Two, they are now claiming this was a joke. Jokes are supposed to be funny. He's not saying that person "represents" Ukraine. He's saying arms going to Ukraine will fall into the hands of that guy and others like him, which is literally what is happening. So it's a stupid probe.
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Feb 14, 2022 15:53
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Everyone obsessing over Nazis in Ukraine seem to conveniently ignore the number of Nazis / white nationalists that also happen to exist in Russia, and probably are in the Russian military as well. My point being it is literally Russian propaganda that Ukraine is full of Nazis and therefore it need's Russian "assistance" to be rid of them.
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Feb 14, 2022 15:54
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Cookie Cutter posted:He's not saying that person "represents" Ukraine. He's saying arms going to Ukraine will fall into the hands of that guy and others like him, which is literally what is happening. So it's a stupid probe. They also claim it was a joke. Ha ha. funny. Solaris 2.0 posted:Everyone obsessing over Nazis in Ukraine seem to conveniently ignore the number of Nazis / white nationalists that also happen to exist in Russia, and probably are in the Russian military as well. Literally this. Russia is funding White Supremacist and Neo-Nazis in Donbass as well. Obviously that means "Let them fight" is the best solution
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Feb 14, 2022 15:55
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CommieGIR posted:Their post was: Perhaps arming a government with a real life SS-founded division is a poor choice, especially when that division is arming and training Nazi grandmas.
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Feb 14, 2022 15:56
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Everyone obsessing over Nazis in Ukraine seem to conveniently ignore the number of Nazis / white nationalists that also happen to exist in Russia, and probably are in the Russian military as well. If UK and USA were funneling arms and cash to the Russian nazis, yes that would be a serious concern. Luckily they aren't so we can focus the discussion on the things our governments are provably doing. It's not good team vs bad team for heaven's sake.
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Feb 14, 2022 15:57
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Perhaps arming a government with a real life SS-founded division is a poor choice, especially when that division is arming and training Nazi grandmas. Got it. Roll on in Russia, nothing to be saved here. Cookie Cutter posted:If UK and USA were funneling arms and cash to the Russian nazis, yes that would be a serious concern. Luckily they aren't so we can focus the discussion on the things our governments are provably doing. It's not good team vs bad team for heaven's sake. Aren't you the guy in the UKMT thread defending Russia as simply reacting to NATO expansion west? So at this point, are you basically just parroting Russian justifications for annexation of Crimea and Donbass region?
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Feb 14, 2022 15:58
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CommieGIR posted:Okay, knock it off. They implied that the Azov Battalion represents the entirety of Ukraine. That'd be like someone interviewing a US Militia Group and saying that is the entire country. Find something new to slapfight about. I mean it certainly doesn’t help that western media just beams footage from neo-nazi militias and frames it like this near constantly: https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/status/1493001855521202185?s=21
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Feb 14, 2022 15:59
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Perhaps arming a government with a real life SS-founded division is a poor choice, especially when that division is arming and training Nazi grandmas. Rape apologist and genocide denier tankie handwringing about nazis. Get out freak (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 14, 2022 16:01
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Saladman posted:I re-read my post and... I wasn't suggesting that? The current buildup does mean that there is zero chance Ukraine would meaningfully protest (e.g. attempt to re-ignite the conflict) in the case of declarations of independence. Pre-buildup then potentially Ukraine would have tried to do something about it if the DPR and LPR suddenly declared independence like, last summer. Fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. I had taken “Russia can take Donetsk and Luhansk over” as a suggestion that DPR and LPR can be viewed in separation from Russia.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:02
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Everyone obsessing over Nazis in Ukraine seem to conveniently ignore the number of Nazis / white nationalists that also happen to exist in Russia, and probably are in the Russian military as well. This is whataboutism, not currently talking about Russian nazis does not mean they do not exist, or that you cannot talk about the real, existing Ukranian nazis and especially the threat that they pose in destabilizing a country currently in an extremely stressful position and therefore the danger in giving them weapons, puff pieces, etc.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:03
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^^^^^ No, it's not. Whataboutism is bringing up bad behavior in a totally unrelated place. Cpt_Obvious posted:I don't think you can really separate the very long and very brutal history of antisemitism in the Ukraine from it's current predicament. Uh, what? Putin isn't attacking the country (with a Jewish president!) because he is concerned about anti-Semitism. Do you even know what the Black Hundreds were? P.S. I have some hands-on experience with anti-Semitism in Ukraine, growing up Jewish. That involved (Russian-speaking!) kids I grew up with drawing a swastika on election posters of a Jewish candidate for some local office. Was pretty terrifying. P.P.S. You are doing a lot of conflating of domestic anti-Semitism (you really should have bought up Bohdan loving Khmelnitsky) with that done by Russian imperial elites. P.P.P.S. Also it's not "the Ukraine". If you don't even know how to call a country properly, maybe you shouldn't OddObserver fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 16:04
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CommieGIR posted:Got it. Roll on in Russia, nothing to be saved here. C'mon man, you can just disagree with me without shoving words in my mouth. Cpt_Obvious posted:Does that mean every Ukrainian is a Nazi? Of course not. Does that mean Russia should invade them? Lol no. But you just can't pretend that doesn't exist, and probing people for pointing out that this long running tradition of hatred still exists serves only to run cover for worst people on the planet.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:04
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I don't think you can really separate the very long and very brutal history of antisemitism in the Ukraine from it's current predicament. The centuries of pogroms and paramilitary groups that the Ukraine has been responsible for are not anomalous but rather a very clear pattern that continues to this day. The cossacks, for example, were notorious in their cruelty to the Jewish people. And this history is unique to Ukraine, and not the entire Russian Empire....how?
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Feb 14, 2022 16:06
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Cpt_Obvious posted:C'mon man, you can just disagree with me without shoving words in my mouth. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm basically quoting the person who got probed saying that this image of Ukrainian Nazis means that we shouldn't give defensive weapons to the entire country. And again, the user is claiming THIS WAS A JOKE. That we were supposed to find it funny.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:06
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Pook Good Mook posted:This isn't directed at you, but what "soft power" does Russia even possess? They have a fungible commodity that Europe can get from other places if they need to. That's it. Their currency is poo poo, they don't export culture, they don't support their neighbors (only their autocratic rulers), they don't have a system of government people want to emulate, and they have a GDP roughly equivalent to Florida. I think Russian culture (and by extension Soviet one) is a thing they could export, and they do to some extent. Some of the movies made in Russia are pretty nice, it's not only drifting T-34 penetrating Panthers with sheer Slavic ingenuity. I think they should be also a major educational destination to all former Soviet states, add some decent government subsidies and you'd get whole generations of young Ukrainians, Kazakhs, etc that have a nice view of Russia. And on local scale they are the dominant economical power. Only that a couple years back Putin has decided that outside of dealing with Germany and China all other economic exchanges need to be clearly one sided "buy our poo poo, and we'll do our best to block yours".
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Feb 14, 2022 16:06
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CommieGIR posted:Aren't you the guy in the UKMT thread defending Russia as simply reacting to NATO expansion west? So at this point, are you basically just parroting Russian justifications for annexation of Crimea and Donbass region? Just because "Russia says thing" does not = thing being false. That's some "putin the mastermind" nonsense.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:07
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Alchenar posted:Virtually every Russia watcher I know would agree that the West's handling of Russia's economic liberalisation was pretty disastrous (particually in comparison to the success stories of how the rest of Eastern Europe has been integrated into the European order), but the rough balance of opinion is that Yeltsin took the advice that he wanted, did what he wanted, and that a Russia that was already smarting from the humiliation of 'losing' the cold war and no longer being a superpower would probably have violently rejected a more assertive group of Westerners telling them how to run their own country. cinci zoo sniper posted:West hosed Russia over in the 90s, but that was 30 years ago. Russia has stood on its own legs more than long enough to have built something other than a patronage-based oligarchy. Of course the conclusion here is that you'd need some extremely altruistic intervention to prevent Russia from falling into that trap, since the natural resources were gonna be there no matter what, and they'd be very easy for anyone unscrupulous enough to grab the entire country to use as a way to cement their power. You basically need to create a sovereign wealth fund to essentially sanitize the money and make it safe for the rest of the economy. Which if you've already created a patronage-based oligarchy means upsetting a lot of people, since you're basically saying you're gonna put the money aside for long-term investments that will eventually result in a (relatively) healthy economy for the population at large down the road.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:08
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Cookie Cutter posted:Just because "Russia says thing" does not = thing being false. That's some "putin the mastermind" nonsense. No, but the problem is by doing so you are saying this justifies Russian actions against Crimea and Ukraine. So maybe you should clarify how Russian military intervention and invasion is a consequence of NATO expansion and therefore, is okay. Because that is what Russia is saying.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:09
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:And this history is unique to Ukraine, and not the entire Russian Empire....how? Their collaboration with the Nazis including participating in the Holocaust.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:11
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Eh, 30 years is not that long ago. Aside from that, the resource curse is real. Being rich in natural resources distorts your economy, making your currency too strong relative to your productivity in other sectors, making those sectors noncompetitive. This encourages further reliance on your primary sector, a sector basically built for a patronage-based oligarchy. Sure, that makes sense to me. I’d like to slightly clarify my earlier implication - in my opinion, Russia has only strengthened its model of oligarchy, instead of making even incremental improvements. As far as entrepreneurship in Russia is concerned, the most important changes have been that you’re less likely to be killed for having a successful company, or see your company taken over in a raid.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:13
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CYBEReris posted:This is whataboutism, not currently talking about Russian nazis does not mean they do not exist, or that you cannot talk about the real, existing Ukranian nazis and especially the threat that they pose in destabilizing a country currently in an extremely stressful position and therefore the danger in giving them weapons, puff pieces, etc. I'd say the bigger threat to Ukraine is currently the imperial state massing nearly 200K troops backed by heavily military equipment along it's border but ok. *edit* This poo poo reminds me of Iraq war justifications when we totally HAD to invade Iraq to save it from Saddam and his ilk. It's all bullshit.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:13
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Wasn't Yeltsin supported by Clinton, in the sense that Clinton used his influence to make it easier for Yeltsin to claim he was a good leader? I feel like if you support the guy who is only taking the advice he wants, you're kind of responsible for the politics he carries out. I mean, yes, but 'support' is a word that has a huge left/right of arc. Saying nice things about Yeltsin, sending a few guys over to talk about market economics and otherwise being diplomatically accomodating is a substantially different thing to the far more tangible diplomatic and economic support that say, Poland and the Baltic States got to reform their economies. The reality is that almost immediately after '91 Russia just ceased to be in the minds of western policy makers.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:16
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Somaen posted:Rape apologist and genocide denier tankie handwringing about nazis. Get out freak now this is what I call discourse (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 14, 2022 16:17
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I don't think you can really separate the very long and very brutal history of antisemitism in the Ukraine from it's current predicament. The centuries of pogroms and paramilitary groups that the Ukraine has been responsible for are not anomalous but rather a very clear pattern that continues to this day. The cossacks, for example, were notorious in their cruelty to the Jewish people. Congrts on describing every country in the world, and throwing in a racist dogwhistle while you are at it.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:18
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Their collaboration with the Nazis including participating in the Holocaust. If you are under the impression there were no Belarussian or Russian collaborators, you are just willfully ignorant. If you are under the impression there were no pogroms and antisemitism in Russia or Belarus prior to or after WWII, you are doubly ignorant. If you believe there were no Ukraininans fighting against the Nazis as soldiers or partisans, you should just gently caress off. Imperial Russia (as its multiethnic whole, not just today's Russia) was possibly the most antisemitic country in Europe before the revolution, and the domestic attitudes didn't change overnight, if indeed they changed at all. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 16:20
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CommieGIR posted:No, but the problem is by doing so you are saying this justifies Russian actions against Crimea and Ukraine. So maybe you should clarify how Russian military intervention and invasion is a consequence of NATO expansion and therefore, is okay. Justified? Nah. Okay? Nah. Understandable? Yes.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:29
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Cookie Cutter posted:Justified? Nah. Okay? Nah. Understandable? Yes. How is saying its "Understandable" not justification.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:30
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steinrokkan posted:If you are under the impression there were no Belarussian or Russian collaborators, you are just willfully ignorant. If you are under the impression there were no pogroms and antisemitism in Russia or Belarus prior to or after WWII, you are doubly ignorant. If you believe there were no Ukraininans fighting against the Nazis as soldiers or partisans, you should just gently caress off. Imperial Russia (as its multiethnic whole, not just today's Russia) was possibly the most antisemitic country in Europe before the revolution, and the domestic attitudes didn't change overnight, if indeed they changed at all.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:30
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CommieGIR posted:How is saying its "Understandable" not justification. Because different words have different meanings.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:31
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Cpt_Obvious posted:They did when Lenin (who was 1/8th Jewish) jailed the paramilitary groups like the Black 100s and forcibly ended the pogroms. Hm yes, the day Vladimir Lenin personally ended racism and nobody was racist ever after VVVV You sound a lot like one of them, what do we call them? rootless cosmopolitans 
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Feb 14, 2022 16:31
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^^^^^^ Uh, yep. Jewish, born in Ukraine, heard stories from his dad about how he didn't even apply to his dream college in Moscow because he didn't think he would have a chance given quotas limiting number of Jews they would admit. Cpt_Obvious posted:They did when Lenin (who was 1/8th Jewish) jailed the paramilitary groups like the Black 100s and forcibly ended the pogroms. ... You do know that USSR had a state policy of pretending the Holocaust didn't happen, and had a lot of institutional anti-Semitism? OddObserver fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 16:32
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CommieGIR posted:How is saying its "Understandable" not justification. "understandable" doesn't confer normativity.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:35
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OddObserver posted:... You do know that USSR had a state policy of pretending the Holocaust didn't happen, and had a lot of institutional anti-Semitism? Source plz.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:37
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Alchenar posted:I mean, yes, but 'support' is a word that has a huge left/right of arc. Saying nice things about Yeltsin, sending a few guys over to talk about market economics and otherwise being diplomatically accomodating is a substantially different thing to the far more tangible diplomatic and economic support that say, Poland and the Baltic States got to reform their economies. The reality is that almost immediately after '91 Russia just ceased to be in the minds of western policy makers. cinci zoo sniper posted:Sure, that makes sense to me. I’d like to slightly clarify my earlier implication - in my opinion, Russia has only strengthened its model of oligarchy, instead of making even incremental improvements. As far as entrepreneurship in Russia is concerned, the most important changes have been that you’re less likely to be killed for having a successful company, or see your company taken over in a raid. Cpt_Obvious posted:They did when Lenin (who was 1/8th Jewish) jailed the paramilitary groups like the Black 100s and forcibly ended the pogroms.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:39
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OddObserver posted:... You do know that USSR had a state policy of pretending the Holocaust didn't happen, and had a lot of institutional anti-Semitism? Let's look what Uncle Joe was up to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot quote:
Not good! Now to be fair, I believe antisemitism in the USSR "improved" after Stalin's death. But it never went away, but it also never went away anywhere in Europe and lately there has been a big rise in Nazis and Fascism in all of Europe, Russia and Ukraine included. It IS a problem. What drives me insane though are the posters (the usual suspects) who are just repeating Russian propaganda whole cloth that no, Nazis only exist in Ukraine and I guess if that's true then both sides are at fault and truth is in the middle and oh well if Russia invades again (remember, they already started a war in 2014) then oh well.... Cpt_Obvious posted:Source plz. Stop posting in bad faith and Google it yourself for once.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:40
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TipTow posted:"understandable" doesn't confer normativity. I'm with you on the lingustics but the underlying argument isn't really true. Russia had the opportunity to complain at every phase of NATO enlargement and didn't. The 2004 and 2009 enlargements happened under Putin's watch and he didn't make any fuss about it then. The issue here is not NATO, it's that Russia sees its neighbours westernising and sees itself losing what little soft power it had left with them. 'NATO threatens us' is just the argument being thrown up because that's far more plapable than 'we don't like losing our client states'.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:40
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Did that change the attitudes, or just prevent them from being acted upon? Well, technically executing antisemites does cause a severe alteration in brain chemistry, so yes.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:40
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Well, technically executing antisemites does cause a severe alteration in brain chemistry, so yes. Why didn't he execute Stalin
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Feb 14, 2022 16:42
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steinrokkan posted:Why didn't he execute Stalin Because he needed him to beat Hitler.
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Feb 14, 2022 16:45
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Well, technically executing antisemites does cause a severe alteration in brain chemistry, so yes.
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