|
Brown Moses posted:The Russian MoD put out a statement about Bellingcat, this was the best response Perverts! I'd take that as a compliment. e: Quoted for new page. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Mar 8, 2016 |
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 12:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 10:44 |
|
|
quote:By the way, until now no one has presented real proof of the presence of the Russian Armed Forces in the Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 12:18
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:I guess the Russian Armed Forces personnel captured by Ukraine aren't proof enough. edit: VVV There's a difference between the two? anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Mar 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 12:38
|
|
|
Judging from the quality of that rebuttal, I guess all those rabid online comments we thought were written by professional trolls were actually official press releases of Russian ministries?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 12:44
|
|
|
Yeah, well, when was the last time the American MoD made a statement in Russian? Checkmate.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 14:45
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:Yeah, well, when was the last time the American MoD made a statement in Russian? Checkmate. They don't have to. Yatzy!
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 15:18
|
|
|
Kiejzar posted:That is quite wrong from what I know. Few years ago during war games in Poland an Abrams tank put five slugs info front turret armor of decomissioned Polish PT-91 (lovely t72 knockoff inferior in every way to T90 and T72B3) and none penetrated. Distance was 1300 metres, and modern DU penetrators were suposedly used. And that ignores additional factors like moving targets, active defences and so on. In the second Chechen war Russians had tanks returning to base after 8 ATGM hits. This is probably a reference to some testing mentioned by a speaker at a Janes conference talking about some German/US live fire testing with some tanks mounting Kontackt-5. It's generally been used as a talking point for the effectiveness of K-5 rather than the armor of the tanks mounting it. There were no specifics about the type of tank in the account, though the internet now has many theories and variants of the original story. If you go looking for sources they all trace back to the same vague comments at the Janes conference, though. Given the lack of details and nature of the (second hand, completely undocumented/supported) source I'd take it with a grain of salt. Kontackt-5 would have been at least as hard to find in Poland/Eastern Germany as the few (all very modern) models of tank capable of mounting it. It also doesn't line up with other accounts of the testing done at Heidi from other sources (who mention T-72M1s but no ERA of any kind and no mention of unexpectedly impenetrable tanks). If you want to see holes in a T-72m1 turret (analog to the T-72A), though, there are a bunch of photos out there from the Canadian testing of 105mm ammo. While 120mm (what you see on basically all NATO MBTs since the 80s) went right through pretty much anything, the 105mm (older 60s-70s NATO standard gun) went through in a lot of spots but didn't in the thickest parts of the turret face. But even in that case you won't find much detail on the ranges involved. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Mar 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 15:58
|
|
|
Anosmoman posted:They don't have to. Yatzy! Russians didn't have to either.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 16:07
|
|
|
I think they put some extra ventilation holes in the t72's in Iraq, too.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 16:14
|
|
|
Kiejzar posted:That is quite wrong from what I know. Few years ago during war games in Poland an Abrams tank put five slugs info front turret armor of decomissioned Polish PT-91 (lovely t72 knockoff inferior in every way to T90 and T72B3) and none penetrated. Distance was 1300 metres, and modern DU penetrators were suposedly used. And that ignores additional factors like moving targets, active defences and so on. In the second Chechen war Russians had tanks returning to base after 8 ATGM hits. Stupid americans! Can't even penetrate the front armor 45 year old knock off tanks! Russia Stonk tank take 8 hits! Hah! *goes to watch another 20 videos of T-72s & T-90s being annihilated by 60 year old US made ATGMs on youtube*
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 16:55
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:Russians didn't have to either. But apparently they tried! El Scotch posted:I think they put some extra ventilation holes in the t72's in Iraq, too. Those were so the souls of the damned could escape.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 16:56
|
|
|
Kiejzar posted:In the second Chechen war Russians had tanks returning to base after 8 ATGM hits. You sure those weren't RPG hits? Because that's a totally different game than ATGMs and the Chechens wouldn't have had much of anything other than RPGs in the 2nd war.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 17:37
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:
I thought it was to help get a cooling cross-breeze going; hot in there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 17:53
|
|
|
Warbadger posted:This is probably a reference to some testing referred to by a speaker at a Janes conference talking about German/US testing done at Heide with some tanks mounting Kontackt-5. It's generally been used as a talking point for the effectiveness of K-5. There were no specifics about the type of tank in the account, though the internet now has many theories! The test I heard about was in Drawsko, and Polish tank had ERAWA type ERA, so probably not it. Story was told by guy who had a cask of whisky riding on the result, supposedly. Murgos posted:Stupid americans! Can't even penetrate the front armor 45 year old knock off tanks! If you haven't noticed, I am arguing against complacency, not repeating Russian propaganda... People in Poland who know alot about tank warfare are right now concerned that we have exactly one weapon system that can harm new Russian hardware - Israeli-licensed Spikes. redscare posted:You sure those weren't RPG hits? Because that's a totally different game than ATGMs and the Chechens wouldn't have had much of anything other than RPGs in the 2nd war.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 19:58
|
|
|
Kiejzar posted:The test I heard about was in Drawsko, and Polish tank had ERAWA type ERA, so probably not it. Story was told by guy who had a cask of whisky riding on the result, supposedly. If an Abrams can't hurt a lovely T-72 then what chance does a T-90 have of hurting it? Or did Russia become superior in both Armour and Gun systems while no one was watching? I'm pretty sure Russia has always lagged behind in Sabot ability not counting the new untested Vacuum-1 ammo that the T-14s are supposedly getting. I'm getting so loving tired that people think a country that spends the same budget as Italy on its military is somehow making all these super weapons.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 20:17
|
|
|
If you want to get shots in on the Americans about language competence then talk about Arabic and other languages in core theaters they are engaged in...
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 20:17
|
|
|
Kiejzar posted:If you haven't noticed, I am arguing against complacency, not repeating Russian propaganda... People in Poland who know alot about tank warfare are right now concerned that we have exactly one weapon system that can harm new Russian hardware - Israeli-licensed Spikes. I sincerely doubt that the T-90 or T-72 is safe from the Abrams, and vice versa  Its more likely the tank was hit 8 times in the right places by poorly trained AT operators than that it actually survived correctly placed hits 8 times.Regarde Aduck posted:If an Abrams can't hurt a lovely T-72 then what chance does a T-90 have of hurting it? Or did Russia become superior in both Armour and Gun systems while no one was watching? I'm pretty sure Russia has always lagged behind in Sabot ability not counting the new untested Vacuum-1 ammo that the T-14s are supposedly getting. I'm getting so loving tired that people think a country that spends the same budget as Italy on its military is somehow making all these super weapons. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 20:34
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:I'm getting so loving tired that people think a country that spends the same budget as Italy on its military is somehow making all these super weapons. I think Russia's GDP is about the same as Italy's not their defense spending. But yeah, restarting (new improved) Alpha production, recommissioning Kirovs, committing to huge production runs of 5th gen fighters and a B-21 analogue while also fielding tanks that can't be penetrated and weapons systems that can't be defeated. All by a country who has as much in it's savings account as a healthy teachers pension program. Doesn't pass the sniff test. Maybe it's reverse star wars? Scare NATO into over committing to it's own defense spending in an attempt to cause disruption?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 20:36
|
|
|
Murgos posted:Maybe it's reverse star wars? Scare NATO into over committing to it's own defense spending in an attempt to cause disruption? Man, considering most NATO-nations don't even reach their minimum spending goals, the Russians are in for a surprise. Right now, mostly thanks to what happens in Ukraine, some nations have stopped spending cuts, some have very slowly started spending more and the rest doesn't give a poo poo. If that has changed during the last months, I'm prepared to be very surprised. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 21:17
|
|
|
Murgos posted:I think Russia's GDP is about the same as Italy's not their defense spending. Orders for the PAK-FA have been quietly cut from enough to theoretically match the F-22 in numbers, down to 12 airframes. They've been having trouble finding export sales because it's really just a Su-27/35 with a bondo'd on stealth kit of questionable performance, and the Indians are reportedly upset because they feel the Russians sold them a bill of goods and are supposedly looking for a way to divest themselves of the program. The plans for a new strategic bomber have been pretty much defunded from what I recall.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
Libluini posted:Man, considering most NATO-nations don't even reach their minimum spending goals, the Russians are in for a surprise. Right now, mostly thanks to what happens in Ukraine, some nations have stopped spending cuts, some have very slowly started spending more and the rest doesn't give a poo poo. Last I heard, as far NATO defense goes, Germany had an agreement with France where they were supposed to have a combined 15 ready battalions (Originally, Germany was supposed to have 15 on its own). They each have maybe 4 or 5 under-strength battalions each, and a good chunk of France's is motorized. Eastern and Central Europe have been picking up a lot of slack.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 22:01
|
|
|
Plan Z posted:Last I heard, as far NATO defense goes, Germany had an agreement with France where they were supposed to have a combined 15 ready battalions (Originally, Germany was supposed to have 15 on its own). They each have maybe 4 or 5 under-strength battalions each, and a good chunk of France's is motorized. Eastern and Central Europe have been picking up a lot of slack. Political reality and allied intervention aside, Poland could totally beat Germany in a fair fight right now. It's ridiculous how geographically-central EU members apart from France have completely atrophied militaries beyond the point of reasonable post-cold war drawdowns. C.M. Kruger posted:Orders for the PAK-FA have been quietly cut from enough to theoretically match the F-22 in numbers, down to 12 airframes. They've been having trouble finding export sales because it's really just a Su-27/35 with a bondo'd on stealth kit of questionable performance, and the Indians are reportedly upset because they feel the Russians sold them a bill of goods and are supposedly looking for a way to divest themselves of the program. ...and this from the only country on our planet to build and operate a large supersonic strategic bombing force (no, barely-over-mach 1-B1s don't count)  . Which areas of the Soviet Union contributed most to the expensive cold war era military that are missing now, besides Russia's economy being kind of lovely recently?Also  at 12 airframes, that's basically enough to pretend there's totally a domestic version of your export product apart from the prototypes.
suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Mar 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 23:04
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
Kiejzar posted:That is quite wrong from what I know. Few years ago during war games in Poland an Abrams tank put five slugs info front turret armor of decomissioned Polish PT-91 (lovely t72 knockoff inferior in every way to T90 and T72B3) and none penetrated. Distance was 1300 metres, and modern DU penetrators were suposedly used. And that ignores additional factors like moving targets, active defences and so on. In the second Chechen war Russians had tanks returning to base after 8 ATGM hits. Do you have a source? The larger point is though, the whole idea of having a pair of tanks facing off and shooting each other in the turret face is a lousy basis for comparison. I doubt that thing about Russian tanks taking 8 ATGM hits without even suffering a mobility kill (nothing hit a track even once?) but some rebels with 1980s Fagot launchers is not a networked opponent with air support, precision artillery, and fancy ATGMs with features like top-attack. Even if you can survive a turret face hit from a 120mm gun inside 1.5 km it would be dumb to base doctrine on the idea that your tanks will survive being seen and targeted by a peer opponent. This thinking is sort of the same as yours in that you envision a worst-case scenario on the attacker side and plan from there, but from the perspective of protection the situation is tilted against protection. You might be nervous about getting a kill on a Russian tank, but you've got multiple attacks per tank. The protection guys are way, way more nervous about taking a hit because you only get one tank per tank.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2016 23:40
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Do you have a source? Not to mention: The TANK may survive the hit, the crew may be so injured and disoriented they won't be retaliating.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 00:23
|
|
|
blowfish posted:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-58_Hustler https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-111_Aardvark
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 01:48
|
|
|
Kiejzar posted:The test I heard about was in Drawsko, and Polish tank had ERAWA type ERA, so probably not it. Story was told by guy who had a cask of whisky riding on the result, supposedly. This sounds extremely unlikely to have happened. Even if true, as a previous poster indicated you don't need to be able to poke holes in the thickest armored area of the tank to kill it. The side and rear armor of the T-90 is pretty much the same as any other T-72 variant (including the PT-91) because there's just no physical room to shove any complex armor schemes in there. You've got a rubberized armor skirt to serve as spaced armor with the front third having some ERA plates on top, behind which you have a relatively thin steel bulkhead. Also, given that they're using essentially the same exact gun as the T-90 and Russia has been selling and exhibiting new generation ammunition in various bids for export I'd say Poland could probably come up something along those lines. Of course the T-90 still suffers from an autoloader that strictly limits the dimensions of SABOT projectiles which has kinda limited their options to improve things in that field for a while. Also, the PT-91 Twardy with current-gen ERA is about as far from the T-72M/M1 as the T-90 is. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Mar 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 02:21
|
|
|
blowfish posted:please ignore the implication that the tsar must be incompetent, stupid or complicit to keep hiring bad thieving boyars He is incompetent stupid and complicit. Putin is a pro-western shill who was hand-picked by Yeltsin and was universally hated when he was trying to suck up to the west. It is no surprise that he keeps hand-picking pro-western shills into his government. His recent experiments with nationalism are pacifying the populace but true patriots see right through that sham.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 05:21
|
|
|
White Phosphorus posted:He is incompetent stupid and complicit. Putin is a pro-western shill who was hand-picked by Yeltsin and was universally hated when he was trying to suck up to the west. It is no surprise that he keeps hand-picking pro-western shills into his government. His recent experiments with nationalism are pacifying the populace but true patriots see right through that sham. Agreed, the problem with Putin is that he's too progressive and liberal. Russia should be based entirely on the foundations of serfdom and misery with no glimmer of light getting in from outside just to give the slaves false hope.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 09:24
|
|
|
Murgos posted:Stupid americans! Can't even penetrate the front armor 45 year old knock off tanks! Especially when it comes to something like the TOW, there's a shitload of variants from a period covering decades and I'm willing to bet there's both TOWs that can't reliably penetrate a T-90 and TOWs that can, and who knows which their particular opponents are using.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 09:40
|
|
|
Eastern Europe: Word on Tanks
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 10:56
|
|
|
Murgos posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-58_Hustler Ok, continues to operate a supersonic bomber fleet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 12:58
|
|
|
Elukka posted:Well, to be fair it might. ATGMs vary widely in penetration and if it can't get through on the first shot there's probably a decent chance it won't get through on the 8th shot unless you manage to hit the same spot. There's stories of tanks in Iraq or Afghanistan taking dozens of RPGs and making it back to base. (I have no idea how it apparently didn't occur to them to hit them from the side or back.) The point was that there were no specifics involved in the statement at all just rah-rahing. "I herd ur tank suckz but my tank is sooo l33t" 'Might actually be feasible, at least on paper, and under a certain set of circumstances' isn't a very strong basis to form an opinion on.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 14:01
|
|
|
Yeah, my point is more that it's very difficult to actually tell how good/bad some tank is based on how that one time it reportedly took fifteen ATGMs or that YouTube video were it was killed by one old TOW because there's so many variables. Everything is classified as all hell and trying to make accurate comparisons is the road to long and spergy discussions citing various fragmentary and anecdotal test data or analyst opinions. (Which I'm sorry to contribute to  )
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 14:06
|
|
|
Meanwhile in Poland, the Constitutional Court found the December act that was supposed to "regulate" (read as "paralyze") this organ as unconstitutional. The Prime Minister of Poland already announced they won't publish the decision (as required by law), as the Constitutional Court didn't deliberate according to the rules of the aforementioned act. This means the executive and legislative is now in open conflict with judiciary. I don't know how PIS hopes to win this standoff, since virtually no one but them and their electorate is on their side. They asked the Venice Commission to check the act, but after the leaked documents suggested the opinion won't be as PIS hoped, they completely lost their poo poo and accused the entire European Union of trying to dominate poor, plucky Poland. Even the US government asked them to please stop meddling with the Constitutional Court, which the ruling party completely ignored. They hope Poland will become second Hungary, but Orban managed to seize power without a PR nightmare every single months. Everything PiS or their supporters do since the elections is a spectacle of incompetence. Polish news read like excerpts from The Onion. Recently the board of an elementary school in Opole launched an internal investigation because someone wrote "Andrzej Dupa" ("dupa" means "butt" in Polish) in the school toilet. They took the notebooks from the children to compare their handwriting and find the offender. As they told the students, they were afraid that during the annual inspection, someone is going to see the graffiti and assume the school authorities don't support the new government. Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Mar 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 15:36
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:Meanwhile in Poland, the Constitutional Court found the December act that was supposed to "regulate" (read as "paralyze") this organ as unconstitutional. The Prime Minister of Poland already announced they won't publish the decision (as required by law), as the Constitutional Court didn't deliberate according to the rules of the aforementioned act. This means the executive and legislative is now in open conflict with judiciary. Is it too early to grab the popcorn in anticipation of the Polish civil war?
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 17:27
|
|
|
blowfish posted:Political reality and allied intervention aside, Poland could totally beat Germany in a fair fight right now. It's ridiculous how geographically-central EU members apart from France have completely atrophied militaries beyond the point of reasonable post-cold war drawdowns. Yeah, but Poland won't, since they're our allies now Also Germany is slowly changing because of Russia, our government is slowly and begrudgingly giving the Bundeswehr more money. It's slow going because the government also does dumb poo poo like ordering the Bundeswehr to send Tornados to Syria and increasing the amount of our battle-ready tanks by 33% without understanding the Bundeswehr needs more resources to do this. But I guess all those scandals in recent years when poo poo just disintegrated under the hands of hopeful soldiers convinced those civilians real world armies don't work like an RTS: You can't just order "more tanks please" and expect all of them mothballed Leopard IIs to be in mint-perfect condition. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 17:40
|
|
|
blowfish posted:Is it too early to grab the popcorn in anticipation of the Polish civil war? It's a wet dream of Polish nationalists and Korwin libertarians.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 18:08
|
|
|
My favourite part about this is that PIS wanted the Court to assess the new act while still following the new act. The act, I stress, changes the rules and composition of the Court. Which means that, if the Court had still declared the act as unconstitutional (still a realistic option), this would mean that this verdict was announced by a Court that followed an unconstitutional act in their proceedings, and therefore the verdict is invalid. But if the verdict is invalid, then the law is constitutional after all. And then the verdict is valid after all, and the law is unconstitutional, but that means etc. The "four balls on the endge of a cliff" approach to law, in other words. Of course, this is why stuff like vacatio legis exists. But the new act bypassed vacatio legis because Fun fact: The leader of PIS is a doctor of law.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 19:35
|
|
|
Razem's took a projector and blew the verdict all over PM Chancellery building 
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 19:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 10:44 |
|
|
Indeed they did, the magnificent bastards.  (The context is that the PM is trying to stonewall the verdict by refusing to publish it, which is required to make it binding. So Razem decided to symbolically accelerate the process.  )(And they even managed to get shown in the media for it, bonus!)
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2016 20:13
|
|