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Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007


Snowglobe of Doom posted:

Superman was thematically tied to the Sun in that film and it was filled with light but people just remember the 'muted' tones of the film and assume it was grim and dark.

Consequences are fine, plenty of people die in The Avengers. The grimness of Man of Steel is that Superman doesn't really enjoy his job of fighting aliens.

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Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009

Sir Kodiak posted:

Consequences are fine, plenty of people die in The Avengers. The grimness of Man of Steel is that Superman doesn't really enjoy his job of fighting aliens.

That was great though.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003

Sir Kodiak posted:

Consequences are fine, plenty of people die in The Avengers. The grimness of Man of Steel is that Superman doesn't really enjoy his job of fighting aliens.

Fighting aliens who want to destroy all humans is depressing, Superman totally gets it. Tony Stark is a sociopath for cracking wise while "hundreds" of people die around him.

Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

It's not just a 'lack of snark' issue imo, MoS has to be grimdark because it doesn't fit the pop culture image of Superman being the guy who saves everyone forever always even to the point of turning back time by spinning the Earth back real fast. People are cool with consequences in general but the Avengers don't have the mythos of Superman so a Superman succeeding but with consequences gets judged more harshly.

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007


Tezcatlipoca posted:

That was great though.

Guy A. Person posted:

Fighting aliens who want to destroy all humans is depressing, Superman totally gets it. Tony Stark is a sociopath for cracking wise while "hundreds" of people die around him.

Yeah, no poo poo. I loving adore Man of Steel.

edit: Sorry, maybe an overreaction. But my complaint definitely isn't with the movie.

Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Mar 7, 2016

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010

Sir Kodiak posted:

Consequences are fine, plenty of people die in The Avengers. The grimness of Man of Steel is that Superman doesn't really enjoy his job of fighting aliens.

Phil and some random German guy.


Brother Entropy posted:

It's not just a 'lack of snark' issue imo, MoS has to be grimdark because it doesn't fit the pop culture image of Superman being the guy who saves everyone forever always even to the point of turning back time by spinning the Earth back real fast. People are cool with consequences in general but the Avengers don't have the mythos of Superman so a Superman succeeding but with consequences gets judged more harshly.

And that judgment is stupid as gently caress.

Bob Quixote
Jul 7, 2006

This post has been inspected and certified by the Dino-Sorcerer



Grimey Drawer

Guy A. Person posted:

Fighting aliens who want to destroy all humans is depressing, Superman totally gets it. Tony Stark is a sociopath for cracking wise while "hundreds" of people die around him.

So is the protagonist of pretty much every non-rated R action or adventure movie ever if we go by that metric.

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007


Snowman_McK posted:

Phil and some random German guy.

Man of Steel doesn't show a pile of corpses either, you basically have to assume it based on the damage to the buildings, though obviously Man of Steel goes further in that regard.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

I just didn't find Superman very heroic. I kind of disliked the guy, and he never won me over. I think they over played the alien angle way too much for me.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

Bob Quixote posted:

So is the protagonist of pretty much every non-rated R action or adventure movie ever if we go by that metric.

Yes, and?

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

Sir Kodiak posted:

Man of Steel doesn't show a pile of corpses either, you basically have to assume it based on the damage to the buildings, though obviously Man of Steel goes further in that regard.

They literally show thousands of people being crushed to death by the force of the terraformer.

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007


CelticPredator posted:

They literally show thousands of people being crushed to death by the force of the terraformer.

I would be surprised if it were more than just a few actually shown. Most of the shots of stuff rising and falling is just rubble and vehicles.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

maybe not thousands, but a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wukyrxavkJo

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Sir Kodiak posted:

Consequences are fine, plenty of people die in The Avengers.

What was the line in Daredevil? "Hundreds"?

Bob Quixote
Jul 7, 2006

This post has been inspected and certified by the Dino-Sorcerer



Grimey Drawer

Mainly just saying that I've heard this type of complaint a lot about super hero movies in general, from the light bantering tone in Avengers action sequences to people being angry about "Superman making out with Lois Lane with the burning corpses of the entire city of Metrolopis literally at their feet", but it really just seems like par for the course in family oriented action movies to throw in some levity in the middle of the violent scenes.

You can have Gimli and Legolas cracking jokes with one another as they murder their way through shitloads of orcs in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but the film isn't framed in such a way to show them as monstrous sociopaths so we just kind of accept it. I'm not really sure what it is about superhero media that makes this relatively common thing seem so egregious to people.

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007



I'd agree that it does a better job of implying widespread chaos better than The Avengers, because what doesn't it do better, but there's very few on-screen deaths. Even that clip keeps cutting away before we see individual people being lifted up or crushed.

computer parts posted:

What was the line in Daredevil? "Hundreds"?

That seems like a lot of people to me.

Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

Bob Quixote posted:

You can have Gimli and Legolas cracking jokes with one another as they murder their way through shitloads of orcs in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but the film isn't framed in such a way to show them as monstrous sociopaths so we just kind of accept it. I'm not really sure what it is about superhero media that makes this relatively common thing seem so egregious to people.

I don't think the snarky action cliche is egregious by itself so much as the idea in superhero fandom that it's the default way to do superhero movies and a movie that eschews it is a grimdark failure. It feels like part of a larger trend of modern American pop culture where everything has to have layers of humor or irony to protect us from letting a piece of media invoke genuine emotion in its audience

(this is also probably a major reason I loved the newest Godzilla so much, it did such a fantastic job of evoking awe and powerlessness)

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Sir Kodiak posted:


That seems like a lot of people to me.

Relative to Manhattan, it's pretty small (and would be a small area). Though I guess that's just commending the Avengers on containing the damage.

And really, in fairness Ultron was much more on the nose about the "no civilians were harmed during the making of this awesome fight" stuff.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

Brother Entropy posted:

I don't think the snarky action cliche is egregious by itself so much as the idea in superhero fandom that it's the default way to do superhero movies and a movie that eschews it is a grimdark failure. It feels like part of a larger trend of modern American pop culture where everything has to have layers of humor or irony to protect us from letting a piece of media invoke genuine emotion in its audience

(this is also probably a major reason I loved the newest Godzilla so much, it did such a fantastic job of evoking awe and powerlessness)

It did, but it's not a completely joyless experience. While most of the film is fairly dark and forbidding, they still managed to have a super fun, crowed pleasing monster rumble that completely makes the experience worth it.

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007


computer parts posted:

And really, in fairness Ultron was much more on the nose about the "no civilians were harmed during the making of this awesome fight" stuff.

Which, and this is probably an unpopular opinion, I prefer to how it works in The Avengers. I'll take a group whose literal collective superpower is to prevent civilian casualties over a movie that implies a bunch of deaths without ever visually selling the destruction.

Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

CelticPredator posted:

It did, but it's not a completely joyless experience. While most of the film is fairly dark and forbidding, they still managed to have a super fun, crowed pleasing monster rumble that completely makes the experience worth it.

MoS did this too, the monsters just weren't as big

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

Brother Entropy posted:

MoS did this too, the monsters just weren't as big

If that was a fun fight to you, then more power to ya. It was just way to stressful for me. It also gave me a headache. I wanted to leave.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
Let's be clear here, no super hero movie has had a final battle as good as the one from Godzilla. It's not a good comparison.

Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

CelticPredator posted:

If that was a fun fight to you, then more power to ya. It was just way to stressful for me. It also gave me a headache. I wanted to leave.

Yeah, that's fair. From my point of view it's kinda tough to see one of those fights as much more 'fun' or 'stressful' than the other but it's not really likely that I could logically argue you out of a personal reaction like 'it gave me a headache' cause that'd put anyone off of a big loud movie scene

Bob Quixote
Jul 7, 2006

This post has been inspected and certified by the Dino-Sorcerer



Grimey Drawer

Brother Entropy posted:

I don't think the snarky action cliche is egregious by itself so much as the idea in superhero fandom that it's the default way to do superhero movies and a movie that eschews it is a grimdark failure. It feels like part of a larger trend of modern American pop culture where everything has to have layers of humor or irony to protect us from letting a piece of media invoke genuine emotion in its audience

(this is also probably a major reason I loved the newest Godzilla so much, it did such a fantastic job of evoking awe and powerlessness)

I don't think there's one true way to properly do a superhero movie myself - I enjoyed both Man of Steel and most of the Marvel studios films. I don't consider giving your superhero movie a more serious tone any kind of cinematic sin, but at the same time I'm not really sure why its a bad thing to go the opposite route and have your big action sequences be more lightweight and comedic.

My comment wasn't meant to imply that a superhero movie should never be serious, but rather that holding up the concept of seriousness itself as some ideal that the non-serious superhero movies are failing to live up to as sort of odd and kind of nonsensical when you view them as part of the larger action-adventure-fantasy genre. (EDIT: I'm not implying that you are doing that, I'm just saying that it's an attitude I've seen online when people are arguing the merits of different superhero movies that kind of bugs me, especially when it gets dragged into the larger Marvel vs. DC thing)

(I also thought the new Godzilla was fantastic for the same reason too, I'd never seen a movie in the series that really gave you an impression of what it would be like to be a human in this world as well as this one did)

Bob Quixote fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Mar 7, 2016

amusinginquiry
Nov 8, 2009

College Slice

Skwirl posted:

Obviously making Lucifer a police procedural was a misstep, but I'm also puzzled at making him super British, and I don't mean the actor portraying him having a British accent, he clarifies with someone who said "pants" that he meant trousers. He's supposed to have been in LA for 5 years when the show starts, I know several UK expats and they are never confused when I say "pants."

Should have just given Mark Pellegrino his own show.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

The Avengers hides consequences to the point where you don't even notice they're there, and it never weighs against the action as you're watching it because it's never shown. MoS shows, however briefly, people being lifted into the air by the gravity thing, people being crushed by the rubble, etc., as well as multiple soldiers being killed. Therefore, when something "cool" happens on screen, it's automatically weighted with "this might kill a civilian" in peoples' minds.

I don't think Avengers shows a single person being killed during the entire Chitauri battle. It's not even hinted to - when the aliens are on screen, they're aiming their weapons at cars, and when people are on screen, they're mostly being herded around by cops or rescued by Avengers. When the big city destruction building scenes happen, the streets are suspiciously empty. That makes it easier to focus on the "cool" things happening, as there's no counter-weight against it.

This mostly happens on a subconscious level with people, as they don't realize what is happening, so they leave MoS wondering why the action didn't seem as "fun" to them and think its a default negative against the movie.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

Lucifer is British because U.S. audiences associate British accents with cool, intelligent, powerful, villains, and it works as shorthand for the character.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

sucks to be right

Darko posted:

I don't think Avengers shows a single person being killed during the entire Chitauri battle. It's not even hinted to - when the aliens are on screen, they're aiming their weapons at cars, and when people are on screen, they're mostly being herded around by cops or rescued by Avengers. When the big city destruction building scenes happen, the streets are suspiciously empty. That makes it easier to focus on the "cool" things happening, as there's no counter-weight against it.

There was a scene in a bank or something where some Chitauri were threatening a bunch of people and Cap leaps in and takes a shot to the gut to protect them, or something like that.
Also there were scenes where the Avengers were directing the cops to evacuate everyone from the immediate area which is why the streets were empty later in the scene.

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

President of
the Brendan Fraser
Fan Club



CelticPredator posted:

If that was a fun fight to you, then more power to ya. It was just way to stressful for me. It also gave me a headache. I wanted to leave.

That sucks dude. :(

Snyder fight scenes are so amazing IMO - from 300 thru Watchmen to MoS and from the looks of just the Batman vs Thugs fight - he's so visceral and the violence is brutal, not real - but its harsh. I would have loved for him to take on something like Predator.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

Darko posted:

Lucifer is British because U.S. audiences associate British accents with cool, intelligent, powerful, villains, and it works as shorthand for the character.

American media needs more Chav baddies.

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj1mYq03Pfc

I love this campaign.

The Cameo
Jan 20, 2005


Vintersorg posted:

That sucks dude. :(

Snyder fight scenes are so amazing IMO - from 300 thru Watchmen to MoS and from the looks of just the Batman vs Thugs fight - he's so visceral and the violence is brutal, not real - but its harsh. I would have loved for him to take on something like Predator.

There's not too many other directors who are as crazy about illustrated art and work their rear end off to replicate it in live action the way he does.

He's one of those people who you know Warners has gone "so, hey, Akira...?" to multiple times.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

amusinginquiry posted:

Should have just given Mark Pellegrino his own show.

They did, it didn't turn out too well.


Snowglobe of Doom posted:

There was a scene in a bank or something where some Chitauri were threatening a bunch of people and Cap leaps in and takes a shot to the gut to protect them, or something like that.
Also there were scenes where the Avengers were directing the cops to evacuate everyone from the immediate area which is why the streets were empty later in the scene.


They also did some justification like "keep the bad guys within this radius" even though that was functionally impossible with only two flying dudes.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Clearly the photobomb option is the best choice.

Best Lex.

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester


The devil went down to Metropolis he was looking for a soul to steal.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK
I don't think I've ever heard a cello shred.

achillesforever6
Apr 23, 2012

psst you wanna do a communism?

Gyges posted:

I don't think I've ever heard a cello shred.
I'm sure Trevor Dunn has done at some point when recording stuff with John Zorn

Corek
May 11, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Gyges posted:

I don't think I've ever heard a cello shred.

Wasn't there a discussion about shredding violinists in CD a few days ago? Doesn't seem too far off.

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Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

President of
the Brendan Fraser
Fan Club



Gyges posted:

I don't think I've ever heard a cello shred.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzKqA9n-mo

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