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twodot posted:Prior to the "I want you to gently caress me" moment, the people involved should have had an adult conversation about whether they want to have a sexual relationship, and nature and borders of what that would entail. Having that knowledge, you should be able to figure out whether passive compliance constitutes consent or not. This would seem to kill a lot of the fun an spontaneity of hooking up with someone for the first time. I have trouble imagining the average high school or college aged person actually following through on this kind of prescription. Ddraig posted:Only the most hardcore would demand all affirmative consent to be verbal. Thanks, this seems straight forward and hard to argue with. I was under the impression that "non verbal ques" had been eliminated from the conception of "affirmative consent" and that some kind of explicit verbal permission was required at each point of sexual escalation. If the "verbal permission is necessary at every stage" is really just a fringe position and if its sufficient to have a general understanding with your partner that you're both willing to have sex, and if you can rely on certain clear non verbal ques like the person kissing you back, helping removal clothing, etc. then that's all entirely reasonable.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:21
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TheImmigrant posted:I'm not really sure it would be possible to have more rape convictions without eliminating the presumption of innocence. If numerous different anecdotal reports are to be believed then we could probably get more convictions in some areas by simply having the police actually take sexual assault charges seriously, so what you're saying probably isn't true. Jethro posted:Yes. Uhhhh, now I have one person claiming this is a fringe position and the other person saying its the essence of affirmative consent 
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Mar 3, 2016 22:23
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Talmonis posted:This doesn't seem so easy to do. It seems really awkward, and would be very difficult for anyone with any kind of anxiety or confidence issues to do. How does such a conversation start anyhow? edit: Helsing posted:This would seem to kill a lot of the fun an spontaneity of hooking up with someone for the first time. I have trouble imagining the average high school or college aged person actually following through on this kind of prescription.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:27
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So if I meet someone at a bar or a party, we hit it off, are getting a bit touchey feeling, and head somewhere more private, I'm supposed under this system to slow things down and ask the girl "if the condom breaks and you get pregnant will you be having an abortion?"
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Mar 3, 2016 22:30
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Helsing posted:So if I meet someone at a bar or a party, we hit it off, are getting a bit touchey feeling, and head somewhere more private, I'm supposed under this system to slow things down and ask the girl "if the condom breaks and you get pregnant will you be having an abortion?" I can't think of a worse moodkiller.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:32
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Helsing posted:So if I meet someone at a bar or a party, we hit it off, are getting a bit touchey feeling, and head somewhere more private, I'm supposed under this system to slow things down and ask the girl "if the condom breaks and you get pregnant will you be having an abortion?"
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Mar 3, 2016 22:32
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should ask her if she's into anal instead
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Mar 3, 2016 22:32
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Hell, ask yourself that, and then give her a strapon with really waggly eyebrows
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Mar 3, 2016 22:33
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Talmonis posted:I can't think of a worse moodkiller. That's only slightly worse than "Which sexual activities, if any, do you affirmatively agree to engage in with me this evening? Please blow in this breathalyzer before answering." e: sometimes I forget the breathalyzer and I have to administer roadside sobriety tests
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Mar 3, 2016 22:34
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twodot posted:I mean not having children is pretty important to me, so I would ask this question. If you are indifferent to or want to raise a child with a stranger feel free to not have that conversation. This seems like a crazy amount of social burden on people, as good an idea as it may be on paper. As it is now, asking that kind of question to a woman you've just met and are about to fool around with will most likely get you tossed out instead for making things too weird. Edit: And if I was asked the same thing, I would also likely freak the gently caress out if she asks "Oh hey, is it OK if I don't get an abortion if you get me pregnant?" 
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Mar 3, 2016 22:36
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Ddraig posted:So to answer your question, in that scenario if you, say, took your pants off or stuck your tongue down her throat, congratulations, you've affirmatively consented! More importantly, if you just kind of let it happen (don't kiss her back when she kisses you, don't grab those wonderful funbags (which you would only do if she indicated it was OK), just stare at the ceiling while she rides you, etc.) then that is also not affirmative consent and you have been raped. The whole point of affirmative consent is that you don't have to clearly and unambiguously deny consent, you just have to fail to clearly and unambiguously grant it. Helsing posted:Uhhhh, now I have one person claiming this is a fringe position and the other person saying its the essence of affirmative consent We're both right-ish. quote:Affirmative consent is a knowing, voluntary, and mutual decision among all participants to engage in sexual activity. Consent can be given by words or actions, as long as those words or actions create clear permission regarding willingness to engage in the sexual activity. Silence or lack of resistance, in and of itself, does not demonstrate consent. The definition of consent does not vary based upon a participant's sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression. So, I should have been more clear that she should wait until you say "gently caress yes" or otherwise positively demonstrate that you're totally into it. Ddraig needed to be more clear that even if it's non-verbal, affirmative consent still needs to be affirmative.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:38
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I literally ask everyone i fool around with if they have any stds, asking someone if they're on birth control isn't that much of a stretch and you probably shouldn't be loving the people who refuse to answer these questions unless you want gonorrhea and a beautiful baby boy
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Mar 3, 2016 22:38
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Control Volume posted:I literally ask everyone i fool around with if they have any stds, asking someone if they're on birth control isn't that much of a stretch and you probably shouldn't be loving the people who refuse to answer these questions unless you want gonorrhea and a beautiful baby boy These are much easier to ask quickly while depantsing than a conversation about their abortion views. Asking if they're on BC is practically the same as "Oh hey, you brought a condom right?"
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Mar 3, 2016 22:44
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twodot posted:I mean not having children is pretty important to me, so I would ask this question. If you are indifferent to or want to raise a child with a stranger feel free to not have that conversation. In addition to the fact this question seems like one of the most unsexy things I could possibly utter just before making love to someone I also don't think it would reveal anything meaningful because I don't expect most women actually know how willing they'd be to get an abortion prior to actually facing such a situation. I think as a man you just have to accept that when you have sex with someone who is capable of having children then you're at least theoretically risking that possibility. Jethro posted:More importantly, if you just kind of let it happen (don't kiss her back when she kisses you, don't grab those wonderful funbags (which you would only do if she indicated it was OK), just stare at the ceiling while she rides you, etc.) then that is also not affirmative consent and you have been raped. The whole point of affirmative consent is that you don't have to clearly and unambiguously deny consent, you just have to fail to clearly and unambiguously grant it. Wait, how does she indicate that its ok for me to touch her breasts? You seem to be saying that if she kisses me and starts to remove my shirt, and my response is to put my hands on her breasts (or her rear end, her thigh, or anywhere else I guess) then I've crossed a line because instead of getting affirmative permission from her I just went ahead and touched her and waited to see if she resisted me. So if we're kissing the idea here is I have to look at her and say "maybe I touch your breasts?" Again, I appreciate your answering these questions in good faith. I realize this is a topic where a lot of people concern troll and I appreciate that you're taking time to answer me without casting aspersions on why I would even raise these questions. quote:We're both right-ish. In principle a lot of this sounds reasonable but in practice it feels so far removed from almost any sexual encounter I've ever had or heard about anyone else having. I'm willing to accept in principle that part of that is because we live in a "rape culture" but even granting that it feels like what you're calling for is almost akin to the bureaucratization of sex. Obviously its a joke to say that you're asking for someone to sign a contract before having sex, but like many jokes there actually seems to be a small glimmer of truth there.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:48
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Then fix your sexual encounters. Helsing posted:This would seem to kill a lot of the fun an spontaneity of hooking up with someone for the first time. I have trouble imagining the average high school or college aged person actually following through on this kind of prescription. Talmonis posted:I can't think of a worse moodkiller. Guess what, your jollies are irrelevant.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:49
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SedanChair posted:Then fix your sexual encounters. Assuming there's something wrong with them to begin with your flippant and low content posting style doesn't provide much help. quote:Guess what, your jollies are irrelevant. I'm still confused by how you're seemingly advocating a system under which I've apparently been sexually assaulted by past partners despite the fact I was eager to have sex with them, all because they failed to pass your standard of gaining my affirmative consent. As I've stressed I'm just trying to get a better handle on what the current philosophy of affirmative consent really is and how applicable it actually is, and the fact that it seems to suggest that I was the victim of non-consensual touching in encounters in which I never felt victimized at all does make me question the overall relevance of your approach to consent. I'm not even saying it automatically makes you wrong but it doesn't inspire much confidence.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:55
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Helsing posted:In addition to the fact this question seems like one of the most unsexy things I could possibly utter just before making love to someone I also don't think it would reveal anything meaningful because I don't expect most women actually know how willing they'd be to get an abortion prior to actually facing such a situation. I think as a man you just have to accept that when you have sex with someone who is capable of having children then you're at least theoretically risking that possibility.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:56
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twodot posted:Sure they can be wrong or change their mind, so there is always inherit risk, but I like to minimize that risk. Like I said choose your own risk level. I also don't generally discuss expectations directly before sex, it's generally "Hey we like each other, let's talk about what that means on Saturday" "Ok that was a pretty intense conversation, but we now understand what we each expect of the other person which is good, let's go eat/play a game/watch a movie/et cetera". There seems to be a lot of focus on what to do if you want to have sex immediately, which I think is just a sub-optimal scenario. This is totally reasonable most of the time and very good advice, and certainly in any long term relationship I've had with a woman the question of safe sex and unwanted pregnancy has eventually come up. But there are also situations where you might end up having sex with someone you don't know very well yet, maybe someone you've barely even spoken to. The reason I'm more focused on those scenarios, rather than the situation where someone is in a more long term couple or friends-with-benefits situation, is because typically its the extreme edge cases that will reveal the flaws or advantages to a given code of behavior, rather than the routine situations. It kinda seems like the ultimate message of affirmative consent is "don't hook up with strangers" and "don't have spontaneous sexual liaisons". Is that a fair characterization?
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Mar 3, 2016 23:02
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Asking "are you down to gently caress?" is not as hard as you're making it out to be.
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Mar 3, 2016 23:06
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SedanChair posted:Then fix your sexual encounters. Actually no, in the context of this conversation, "my" (Or my partner's) Jollies are not irrelevant, as determining what consent should be is very important. Adding uncomfortable conversation about the possible consequences of sex, particularly when it comes to a subject as unpleasant as abortion, seems like a lovely thing to do.You're ruining the moment for possibly both of you. This of course is really only a concern when it comes to the beginning of a relationship or a casual encounter. Talking about something like this with a steady partner is a good idea.
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Mar 3, 2016 23:07
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Helsing posted:It kinda seems like the ultimate message of affirmative consent is "don't hook up with strangers" and "don't have spontaneous sexual liaisons". Is that a fair characterization? This is what I'm getting from it, and that's a bad road to go down. It reeks of victim blaming and slut shaming.
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Mar 3, 2016 23:08
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Who What Now posted:Asking "are you down to gently caress?" is not as hard as you're making it out to be. You're probably right but sometimes its helpful to be able to ask what are probably stupid questions and get answers to them.
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Mar 3, 2016 23:09
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Talmonis posted:This is what I'm getting from it, and that's a bad road to go down. It reeks of victim blaming and slut shaming. It takes only seconds to get affirmative consent. How loving spontaneous are these hypothetical sexual encounters that you can't stop to ask "are you ready for a trip to the bone zone, baby?"? Are you literally just sprinting dick-first into some women? Do you rip off breakaway pants the moment you lock eyes with a stranger and just start humping as vigorously as you can? Because that's the only conceivable scenario I can think of where you don't have time to get affirmative consent.
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Mar 3, 2016 23:17
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Helsing posted:Uhhhh, now I have one person claiming this is a fringe position and the other person saying its the essence of affirmative consent It largely depends on individual circumstances. Sex is a complicated thing. You would probably, for example, have different 'rules' during a one-night stand vs a long-term relationship. If a girl asks you into her house for sex, and you go into the house, that is pretty much considered "yes". "Yes, ok" would also be acceptable, as would "Let's do it in the bushes instead"
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Mar 3, 2016 23:24
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Helsing posted:Wait, how does she indicate that its ok for me to touch her breasts? You seem to be saying that if she kisses me and starts to remove my shirt, and my response is to put my hands on her breasts (or her rear end, her thigh, or anywhere else I guess) then I've crossed a line because instead of getting affirmative permission from her I just went ahead and touched her and waited to see if she resisted me. So if we're kissing the idea here is I have to look at her and say "maybe I touch your breasts?" So, how can we get affirmative consent to touch someone's breast? Wait until they say "please touch my breasts!" Ask "may I touch your breasts?" Place your hands on their body near their breasts (like on their side) and wait until they move your hands or say "yeah baby, grab those puppies!" Reach towards their breasts but don't touch them and wait for them to lean into your grasp or move your hands or say "what are you waiting for baby, these knockers are all yours" Say "Holy gently caress I wanna grab your tits!" and then wait for them to say "gently caress yeah!" or grab your hands or otherwise actively indicate that that is something that they are (at least) OK with you doing. *That being said, I don't mean to indicate that just because someone is DtF they automatically have consented to everything. Obviously if you're engaging in some lovely, consensual PiV intercourse, you don't get to pull out and do anal without making sure they are also OK with that. So how can we get affirmative consent to stick your penis in someone's anus? Wait until they say "I would like to have receptive anal sex with you now." Ask "how do you feel about anal sex?" Pull out and slide the head of your penis along their perineum, but don't actually stick it in unless they say "yeah baby, gently caress my rear end" or they reach down and guide your penis in there. Etc.
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Mar 3, 2016 23:25
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Helsing posted:It kinda seems like the ultimate message of affirmative consent is "don't hook up with strangers" and "don't have spontaneous sexual liaisons". Is that a fair characterization? It's true that it's probably easier to be sure that you've gotten affirmative consent in the context of a long-term relationship, but it's certainly not impossible, and it doesn't require putting together an 11 page fornication contract.
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Mar 3, 2016 23:39
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Who What Now posted:It takes only seconds to get affirmative consent. How loving spontaneous are these hypothetical sexual encounters that you can't stop to ask "are you ready for a trip to the bone zone, baby?"? Are you literally just sprinting dick-first into some women? Do you rip off breakaway pants the moment you lock eyes with a stranger and just start humping as vigorously as you can? Because that's the only conceivable scenario I can think of where you don't have time to get affirmative consent. There was literally a case in the UK where a Saudi prince was accused of rape and he used the defence of "I was walking, tripped and fell dick first in her" and he got acquitted.
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Mar 3, 2016 23:50
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Ddraig posted:There was literally a case in the UK where a Saudi prince was accused of rape and he used the defence of "I was walking, tripped and fell dick first in her" and he got acquitted. sounds about par for sexual assault cases in the uk
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Mar 3, 2016 23:54
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Not only does asking "EY YO GURL LEMME HOLLA AT YA U WANT SUM gently caress" obtain verbal consent, but according to recent studies conducted by the studious members of /r/redpill, it is in fact the only way to achieve sex with a woman.
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Mar 3, 2016 23:59
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You fix them by following the Constitution of the United States. The laws now protect perpetrators, and the Constitutional history of America seems to indicate we should be protecting the victims. The status-quo seems to be the way lawmakers prefer things remain, and a certain orange person winning in November would veto any such changes to the way rape is handled. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 23:59
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Ddraig posted:There was literally a case in the UK where a Saudi prince was accused of rape and he used the defence of "I was walking, tripped and fell dick first in her" and he got acquitted. I just googled that and apparently the jury acquitted after deliberating for only 30 minutes. That seems really insane. Like there had to be massive jury bribery going unless the girl was really, incredibly bad on the stand or there was some other fatal flaw in the prosecution's case.
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Mar 4, 2016 00:04
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Nonsense posted:You fix them by following the Constitution of the United States. The laws now protect perpetrators, and the Constitutional history of America seems to indicate we should be protecting the victims. What's all this now
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Mar 4, 2016 00:05
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Thermos H Christ posted:What's all this now I'm to understand there is a crisis according to the OP, and in times of crisis, the nation should respond. edit: Let's not end up like the UK.
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Mar 4, 2016 00:06
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SedanChair posted:That is fine. So if I were to kiss my sleeping boyfriend on the head for example you'd consider that rape? There was an actual case where something like this happened, I don't remember what the outcome was though. I do appreciate your pragmatic solutions as usual, basically claiming that like 90% of men or more are rapists. EDIT: Or hell, just giving my awake boyfriend a playful kiss on the cheek. Also rape? MaxxBot fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 4, 2016 00:09
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Nonsense posted:I'm to understand there is a crisis according to the OP, and in times of crisis, the nation should respond. Can you help us out as far as what you're talking about when you say the present laws protect perpetrators and need to be changed in some way, and the Constitution is implicated somehow as a protection for the accuser instead of the accused?
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Mar 4, 2016 00:14
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Who What Now posted:It takes only seconds to get affirmative consent. How loving spontaneous are these hypothetical sexual encounters that you can't stop to ask "are you ready for a trip to the bone zone, baby?"? Are you literally just sprinting dick-first into some women? Do you rip off breakaway pants the moment you lock eyes with a stranger and just start humping as vigorously as you can? Because that's the only conceivable scenario I can think of where you don't have time to get affirmative consent. No no, I'm talking specifically about the "don't have casual sex" vibe we were getting. Affirmative consent is good.
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Mar 4, 2016 00:19
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Talmonis posted:No no, I'm talking specifically about the "don't have casual sex" vibe we were getting. Affirmative consent is good. That vibe seems to be entirely of your own devising.
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Mar 4, 2016 00:20
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Casual sex seems like one of those areas where affirmative consent should be the easiest thing in the world to acquire because casual sex is sex for sex's sake and "Do you want to gently caress?" is the key phrase there. If you can't get it during those scenarios you should probably give up on sex having since I don't think you're ever going to be handed an easier, GED scenario than that and if you gently caress it up then god drat.
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Mar 4, 2016 00:22
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Jethro posted:it doesn't require putting together an 11 page fornication contract. But we can have the 11 page document, right? I mean, for some people, vetting the document, going through mediated revisions and getting fiduciary signatures is the only way to get going. I mean, not me. Some friends of mine. Yeah.
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Mar 4, 2016 00:42
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Thermos H Christ posted:I just googled that and apparently the jury acquitted after deliberating for only 30 minutes. That seems really insane. Like there had to be massive jury bribery going unless the girl was really, incredibly bad on the stand or there was some other fatal flaw in the prosecution's case. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/eton-pupil-andrew-picard-convicted-of-creating-and-sharing-child-abuse-images-a6896966.html Basically If you're rich and a pedo/rapist in England. You can get away with it.
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