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He's bidding high because he plans on subbing out pretty everything. Also, to leave room for negotiations. Feel free to cut about 10% from that number.
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May 10, 2016 02:13
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Second bid $425k This was the place that does the kitchen design and was the biggest outfit of the three. $425k, sounds great, huh? It's not. First, they didn't include ANYTHING for kitchen. These are the guys that stressed over and over how builders skimp out on kitchen allowances. They KNEW what we wanted to more detail than anyone else. And they don't put anything down? Come on. Second, they didn't include ANYTHING for site work or driveway. W.T.F. Here's some other things not included: Sewer/Water connection fees. Plans review. Any landscaping whatsoever, not even grass. Ledge removal. Light fixtures. Appliances. Bathroom cabinets. Towel racks, toilet paper holders, and all that crap. Closet shelving. The wood stove. Any fill / gravel. They were good enough to admit it's probably closer to $500k all said-and-done. In my mind that means $525 High price plus these were the only guys not personally recommended to us = pass The one high-point on all of this... They explained how we can save some cash on driveway by grading the land differently. It means going to the conservation commission to file a letter of intent, but they even told us how to game the system. They said do a temp-driveway just for construction. Start building. Then go to the commission. That way, they can't reject the whole project and since the house is already in-progress it's an easier sell for "yeah, this makes sense to do". Worse-case we do it as already approved, best case we save money and get a better layout. So first bid is on top right now. Last contractor says he sent the bid on Friday, never got it. I'm betting he spelled the email address wrong and I'm waiting for him to check.
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May 10, 2016 16:16
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The only thing I have to add is that I use those brinno cameras at work, they're fine.
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May 11, 2016 11:37
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I can't seem to get a bid out of my last guy. He said he sent it Friday. I texted him Monday saying I didn't get it, he texted back saying he would send it. I texted tuesday asking, no response. I called today "I'm on a ladder, call you back in 5 minutes" and no call back. Called again a couple hours later, voicemail. Pretty much ready to give up there. Also, found out he's bidding on an addition for a friend of ours on the same street. Maybe he just wants that job more or something. Also, sat down with first-bid guy. Went over everything. Sounds solid, and included a bit more than I was expecting. Gounads fucked around with this message at 00:53 on May 12, 2016 |
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May 12, 2016 00:43
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Gounads posted:I can't seem to get a bid out of my last guy. He said he sent it Friday. I texted him Monday saying I didn't get it, he texted back saying he would send it. I texted tuesday asking, no response. I called today "I'm on a ladder, call you back in 5 minutes" and no call back. Called again a couple hours later, voicemail.
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May 12, 2016 02:27
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That's what I'm thinking. Before last week he was pretty responsive, so it's a bit baffling.
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May 12, 2016 12:57
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He has another job that may get confirmed that may be higher margin for him, but hasn't confirmed it, so he's slow-playing you to see what happens with the other job.
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May 12, 2016 13:53
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If he's literally that small that he's up on ladders doing things I wouldn't be too off put, but I would let them know that's why they're not getting the job. If they don't care, it's they're loss, but if they're working on the same block you can't afford to get "bad press". You are exactly right in your assessment that the 2nd should be out. Things like the cost of plans review are a standard inclusion. That's why you get a local person so they know what those are. I'm sure they'd love to pass the cost to you, but it should be built in.
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May 12, 2016 14:04
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This morning I sent the "We're making our decision tomorrow with or without your bid" text. Got a call back pretty quick. Apparently he upgraded his software and lost everything. Bids, quotes, all his billing info, and has been scrambling to figure everything out. On top of that, his plumber broke a sewer line yesterday and they had a huge mess and that's why he didn't call back. I get that, but just let me know. I'm sure the software issue was before the sewage problem. Should have bid today and he's stopping by tomorrow to go over everything. So we should still hit our self imposed deadline of making a decision this week. Overall this doesn't inspire confidence. But I do want to see a third bid. If we go with him, we'll need to be double-sure that timeliness is built into the contract. Speaking of which, need to find a lawyer to go over that eventual contract. He did say he was going to give us a break on the bid financially because of all this, so I guess that's sorta nice. I didn't expect that and don't imagine it'll be meaningful in the big picture. But at least he recognizes it was a problem.
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May 12, 2016 14:44
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Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one and they stink. If I were you I'd take it as a red flag, but it would at least be very useful to have his bid, at least as an extra reference point to use as leverage. Say you could go back to your first guy and be like so and so only bid x dollars for y job, could you explain what the difference in work/materials might be? Might save you a few bucks down the line...
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May 12, 2016 17:16
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OSU_Matthew posted:Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one and they stink. If I were you I'd take it as a red flag, but it would at least be very useful to have his bid, at least as an extra reference point to use as leverage. I wish he had 3 quotes from people like the first guy, instead of this mess. That said, pricing out a project like that takes some serious effort. Simple omission here and there could mean losing thousands, is not tends of thousands. I'm a really small outfit, kitchen/bathroom/basement type work, and have royally hosed myself on bids before. You have to have a keen eye for bullshit detail, not just a software that assigns values to measurements.
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May 12, 2016 17:49
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I extracted the interesting parts of the currently winning bid if anyone wants to see: http://pastebin.com/p9fVfi0T
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May 12, 2016 18:06
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Line 51: - Three (4) foundation windows included and to be installed I assume (4) is referencing a drawing or something?
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May 12, 2016 18:10
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Safety Dance posted:Line 51: - Three (4) foundation windows included and to be installed No, he's just horrible at copy/pasting. Also note the sixteen(20) recessed lights. Had both those questions last night. Windows are as they are in the plans. He's checking to see the electrical bid for the real number. Edit: We'll make sure to get it all cleaned up for a contract.
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May 12, 2016 18:12
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We're currently building a house, so I have a few comments on the contractor, just general things (Our house is ~3000sf above grade two story, with a full unfinished basement). We're at about 350k contract price without the lot. Looks like you have a lot of cost just because of your current site. Our plumbing came to roughly ~20k, including all all faucets, tubs, etc. It did not include the vanity sinks because they will come from the cabinet maker. Our electrical came to around ~18k That one is harder to compare. We didn't have to bury 325feet of cable, but we have ~40 can lights or so, plus lots of extra outlets. Out HVAC was ~18k, but slightly simpler, only one furnace, but 3 zones installed (4th wired up), garage heater as well. Fireplace allowance seems quite high at 13k, unless this is some stone/brick huge thing (I don't remember the final plan you were getting bid). Kitchen/Vanity Install is kind of weird. I'd recommend trying to find a custom cabinet maker, and they do the install for you as part of the price. Looks like they are blacktopping the driveway (165' is a lot..but blacktop is annoying).
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May 12, 2016 19:32
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Gounads posted:Overall this doesn't inspire confidence. But I do want to see a third bid. If we go with him, we'll need to be double-sure that timeliness is built into the contract. Speaking of which, need to find a lawyer to go over that eventual contract. Protip: it's a lot easier to get parties to accept a contract with a penalty for completing too far behind schedule if you also include a bonus for completing ahead of schedule (don't worry, you won't have to pay the bonus, because that never happens). Comments on the estimate: Two separate trenches for water & electric? Is the 2x6 wall construction 16" or 24" OC? (You want 24"). The insulation plan is garbage. U0.30 windows are decent-ish 50 gallon water heater may not be enough to fill a fancy whirlpool tub HVAC doesn't look totally awful. But I sense he's going to find a way to cram one of the two air handlers into an attic space. And it's going to be expensive to run if propane prices go back up to normal. If you're going to spend that much on an open fireplace, get a Rumford. This is the plan you're going with, right? edit: wait, does that estimate include two tankless water heaters on top of a 50 gallon tank??? Zhentar fucked around with this message at 20:27 on May 12, 2016 |
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May 12, 2016 20:24
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Zhentar posted:If you're going to spend that much on an open fireplace, get a Rumford.  Isn't this paying a lot of money for a fireplace that sucks cold air in from the outside and sends hot air up the chimney more efficiently?
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May 12, 2016 21:06
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MrEnigma posted:We're currently building a house, so I have a few comments on the contractor, just general things (Our house is ~3000sf above grade two story, with a full unfinished basement). We're at about 350k contract price without the lot. Looks like you have a lot of cost just because of your current site. Thanks for those comparisons, it really helps. Fireplace includes nice stone surround, double sided wood stove, and chimney. I know we put a single-sided stove in a few years ago for $8k. He works his allowances so if you don't spend the full amount, you don't pay it. Everyone around here does blacktop driveways. Concrete doesn't survive the winters. Pavers are too expensive. Zhentar posted:
There will be 2 trenches. One will probably be electric/water, the other sewer. They go different directions. Electric/water is a long one. Plans call for studs 16" why would you want wider? better insulation? which brings us to... what insulation values should I be looking for? Yes, we'll end up with a handler in the attic. Is that a big deal? That's the plan. It's 2 tankless heaters, no 50 gal. "Run gas line for 50 gallon hot water heater." - again copy paste shenanigans. That line is really just "run gas lines"
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May 12, 2016 21:22
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Gounads posted:Plans call for studs 16" why would you want wider? better insulation? which brings us to... what insulation values should I be looking for? Can't speak to the R values you'd want from your insulation, but wider spacing of studs does indeed confer better insulation. Every stud acts as a "heat bridge" because they're made out of solid wood, which conducts heat much better than insulation does. Wider spacing also means lighter walls and less material used, which is good for the environment, cheaper, etc.
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May 12, 2016 21:38
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Safety Dance posted:
The draft is much stronger, but it's paired with a smaller throat, so there is net much less air flow. You also get a higher combustion temperature, which means more complete combustion of the fuel (more heat generated) and better radiant transfer (more heat makes it into the room instead of directly up the flue). Overall, the efficiency is more than double a standard fireplace (which means it can even manage to be a net gain in a centrally heated home!). The brand I linked also includes a pull down ceramic front which brings the combustion efficiency all the way up on par with a woodburning insert.
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May 12, 2016 22:04
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Can't speak to the R values you'd want from your insulation, but wider spacing of studs does indeed confer better insulation. Every stud acts as a "heat bridge" because they're made out of solid wood, which conducts heat much better than insulation does. Wider spacing also means lighter walls and less material used, which is good for the environment, cheaper, etc. Exactly. Wider spacing means more insulation, less materials, less labor. A 24" OC 2x6 stud wall is stronger than a 16" OC 2x4 stud wall, so you're not compromising on structural strength (although 2x6 24" is in some case not sufficient with very high ceilings). Gounads posted:Everyone around here does blacktop driveways. Concrete doesn't survive the winters. Pavers are too expensive. After 23 years of freeze thaw cycles as harsh as you have, the concrete portion of my driveway is pristine and the blacktop is on its last legs. It's mostly just cost (though melting snow & ice faster in sun is a nice bonus). Unconditioned attic air handlers are awful in hot climates. In cold climates, they're just bad; you lose a lot of heat out your attic, it promotes ice damming, it's harder on your equipment (and you have to worry about things like condensate drains freezing). Two tankless heaters seems pretty overkill unless you're pairing them to fill your tub... which still seems like a cost ineffective approach. As far as insulation... generally, I'd want around double whats in your plan - I'll run some numbers tonight and give you something more specific. The basement insulation plan is just hosed, and doesn't even meet code minimums (though apparently he thinks he can get rescheck to say it's good enough). Zhentar fucked around with this message at 22:53 on May 12, 2016 |
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May 12, 2016 22:24
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Gounads posted:Everyone around here does blacktop driveways. Concrete doesn't survive the winters. Pavers are too expensive. Huh interesting, I'm in the upper midwest, in Wisconsin, and we routinely have below 0 for a month or so. Any short stuff is all concrete, otherwise long driveways are blacktop. A few other things seem kind of high on there....we didn't go with any security system, so we didn't have that cost. But things like runoff fences and such, seem really high at 4k, but that might be due to the site itself. PM if you want any more info, I'll share whatever I have. Our contract isn't broke down that far, mostly just one chunk for concrete/framing/insulation/plaster/painting/trim, and then electric/plumbing/etc split out.
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May 12, 2016 22:45
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Zhentar posted:The draft is much stronger, but it's paired with a smaller throat, so there is net much less air flow. You also get a higher combustion temperature, which means more complete combustion of the fuel (more heat generated) and better radiant transfer (more heat makes it into the room instead of directly up the flue). Overall, the efficiency is more than double a standard fireplace (which means it can even manage to be a net gain in a centrally heated home!). The brand I linked also includes a pull down ceramic front which brings the combustion efficiency all the way up on par with a woodburning insert. I'll just say scandinavian kakelugn.
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May 13, 2016 05:08
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Okay, insulation numbers. I stuck something as close as I could get to your house into BEopt (which isn't as close as I'd like because it can't handle garages over basements or walkout basements correctly. The numbers I'm getting out of it pass the sniff test, but as a disclaimer, I have limited experience using BEopt and I may have screwed something up. I'm using $2.70/gallon for your propane prices, because it's what BEopt pulled in automatically for MA, and I'm using Worcester, MA climate data. Base case, with the unconditioned basement your builder apparently intends, and you need about 1300 gallons of propane a year for space heating, coming out to $3,600/yr. If you heat the basement (it's probably going to be in the 50s if you don't, maybe even 40s), the annual cost goes up to around $3,900/yr. * The R-38 batts for the flat attic bugs me as "wrong" but bumping it up to R-60 cellulose only saves $40 on heating and $20 on cooling, which was less than I expected (note: from what I could see on the site, I guessed at giving the master bedroom & bedroom 2 cathedral ceilings, but bedroom 3, the hall, and master bath flat ceilings) * Increasing the wall R-Value by using ZIP R Sheathing saves about $300/yr * Insulating the basement wall with R-10 XPS saves $700/yr, if you're heating it. * Dropping the air leakage from the code minimum 3 ACH50 to 1 ACH50 saves almost $900/yr on heating * I ran the simulations with the all of the ductwork in the basement, with 15% leakage (which is a mediocre but realistic value). If we move all of that ductwork into to the attic, heating costs increase by $600/yr. * I didn't test under slab insulation, because BEopt doesn't support it. 2 inches of EPS (R-8) is probably reasonably cost effective, and will leave your basement floor a bit warmer (making it more comfortable to walk on and less susceptible to condensation) * I didn't test dual fuel heat pumps because BEopt doesn't support that either.
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May 13, 2016 05:21
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His Divine Shadow posted:I'll just say scandinavian kakelugn. Yeah, a Rumford isn't a good way to heat your home, it's just a way you can get the fireplace ambiance without being awful at heating.
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May 13, 2016 06:18
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Wow, thanks Zhentar! It's flat ceilings everywhere except the photo studio over the garage. > Increasing the wall R-Value by using ZIP R Sheathing saves about $300/yr Is zip-r different than the zipwall sheathing that was specified? We won't be heating the basement. Someday, might finish half of it. > Dropping the air leakage from the code minimum 3 ACH50 to 1 ACH50 saves almost $900/yr on heating Sounds like that would be the biggest win here. Speaking of heating, fireplaces, etc... right now we heat two room entirely via a high efficiency wood stove. We're hoping to do something similar in the new house. The lot itself has several years worth of lumber to harvest and we have a cheap source otherwise.
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May 13, 2016 13:31
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Yay, last bid in. $402k Right away I see there's no driveway (+$28k from other bid). Didn't include the wood stove (+ $13k from other bid). Going to go over it in detail later today, but already can see it's not going to be a ton cheaper, and the reliability of the other guy probably has me sold. Speaking of which, the other guy already gave me an updated bid with everything we talked about in-person.
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May 13, 2016 14:16
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Trying to compare the bids line by line is impossible. First, they're grouped very differently. But even when I combine things to get comparable lines, one has electric and plumbing -50% but then framing +50%, foundations are nowhere near each other. It's just all over the place. I don't understand how line-items can be so far apart but the total so similar. Also, last bid didn't include A/C, so there's another big chunk. Overall, It's definitely higher. So we're at a point where the builder with the best referral, most complete bid, who's been the easiest and most professional to talk with, and who we've seen a house he's built and loved is also the cheapest. The only point where he wasn't *the best* is in time to build, and that was neglible - 4-5 months vs. 4 months. Not rocket science on who we're picking here. Do I negotiate and how hard? (p.s. I suck at that) All the decent negotiating articles I found on google were really aimed at tract houses and had silly advice like "try to get 3% off if you're not using a real estate agent".
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May 13, 2016 15:39
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You can certainly try but it's going to be tough is every other bid is higher, you have no leverage.
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May 13, 2016 16:10
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When we bid out our house, a lot of the contractors used the same subs, so we got the same bids back, so that helped out. For everything else I just went through and 'normalized' the bids, trying to make all the 'subbed' out parts equal, since those should be able to be equal. You may also have the option of using your own electric/plumbing/hvac/well/septic/etc subs if you want, keep in mind that the builder may then rely on you to schedule and setup everything if they aren't their preferred subs. Edit: Even if the subs are doing different things (i.e. different quotes), try to take the one you want, and then normalize the other bids with that amount. Some builders also like to show a lower bid, and then leave you on the hook for a driveway/lawn or whatever it may be. Some of the costs the builder we went with just absorbs, other builds pass them on. Our range was from about 350-400k to build, which is a fairly large difference. (We did end up going with the cheapest one, but it was also our best referral -- so that worked out nice). MrEnigma fucked around with this message at 17:04 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 17:01
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Gounads posted:Trying to compare the bids line by line is impossible. First, they're grouped very differently. But even when I combine things to get comparable lines, one has electric and plumbing -50% but then framing +50%, foundations are nowhere near each other. It's just all over the place. I don't understand how line-items can be so far apart but the total so similar. Well, what are you negotiating for? Are you negotiating to try and feel like you got some money off? Do you think the prices are too high? Are you negotiating for certain finishes? Negotiating for the sake of saying you negotiated can often be a waste of time on both ends.
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May 13, 2016 17:22
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Talked with that last guy. Told him we're probably going with another builder but I'd still hear him out if he wanted a sit down. He declined (I figured he would). He also made a comment about it almost being a relief since he's got a lot of work coming up, not sure if that was just face-saving or real, but the comment helped reinforce we made the right decision. Called the preferred builder up, gave him the good news. He's so eager on this and wants to make sure we hit our starting deadline that he's working on getting plans approved and going for the building permit starting Monday. We'll work out exact contract details later. Only asked for a $1k deposit. Very reasonable. Generally took the advice here not to worry too much about beating him up on price. I'll work with him to figure out how to get some costs down. Probably cut a few things, maybe I can finish a couple rooms myself, maybe we can find some alternative ideas. If I could trim $10k, I'd be happy. MrEnigma posted:When we bid out our house, a lot of the contractors used the same subs, so we got the same bids back, so that helped out. For everything else I just went through and 'normalized' the bids, trying to make all the 'subbed' out parts equal, since those should be able to be equal. You may also have the option of using your own electric/plumbing/hvac/well/septic/etc subs if you want, keep in mind that the builder may then rely on you to schedule and setup everything if they aren't their preferred subs. Unfortunately, the sub-bids were completely different. Both in price, what they included. One plan had tankless water heater, the other a tank, the other didn't list what it included for that. Your Edit is a really important point. The guy we're going with built 3 houses of people we know, 1 one of which we saw. On the one we saw, he added a deck for only the material cost "because it made sense for the house and it'd would have been stupid not to". His bid had the fewest missing pieces that we'd have to worry about. Edit: If you're interested... Insurance agent just got back to me. Builders risk insurance, which the bank requires, would have cost us $850. But the builder we're going with includes it so it's a moot point now.
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May 13, 2016 19:36
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Gounads posted:It's flat ceilings everywhere except the photo studio over the garage. Switching to flat ceilings over the bedrooms bumps the savings from switching to R-60 loose fill cellulose up to $90/yr (also note that's compared to perfect installation of the fiberglass batts, which basically does not ever happen). Another benefit of the loose fill insulation is that if you really must have ducts in the attic, you can significantly improve the insulation of the ducts for free by burying them in the loose fill. What's specified in the quote is standard/regular ZIP sheathing - just 1/2" OSB with a WRB coating applied to one surface. ZIP R Sheathing bonds the other surface to polyiso insulation, putting 1/2" or 1" of continuous rigid insulation in between the sheathing and the studs (the numbers I ran used the thicker, 1" insulation). Polyiso wouldn't be my first choice (its cold weather performance is on par with cheap EPS insulation, and inferior to XPS), but the ZIP R sheathing is a good approach from a moisture perspective, and more importantly, there's little change to your builder's workflow, which can make the builder more receptive to it and avoids added labor costs (basically, you just have to use shank nails instead of standard framing nails to preserve shear strength, and you need longer jamb extensions. Jamb extension costs can be cut by using drywall window returns and wood trim just for the sill, which IMO can look quite nice on top of being cheaper). If you're planning on finishing the basement some day, then that's an extra argument for insulating the basement. Now is pretty much your only shot to put rigid insulation on the exterior of the foundation wall and under the slab, and doing so basically eliminates any concerns about moisture from condensation on the concrete. Combined with the good moisture management described in the estimate, it would pretty much mean you could forget about the "basement" part of finishing your basement and just finish it however you wanted, without worrying about water/mold at all. Reducing air leakage is definitely a big win area, which is why efficiency folks keep making a big deal out of it. But the way I said it there makes it sound like a much easier thing than it is. Even hitting 3 ACH50 isn't a sure thing (I do believe it is code minimum in your area but it may not be enforced); it's generally not hard for builders to hit with some basic attention and avoiding common issues, but making the basement a semi-insulated, unconditioned space makes it harder, and there's a lot of room to screw up details with the studio over the garage. 1 ACH50 is probably impossible without getting your HVAC out of the attic, bringing the basement completely into the conditioned envelope, and a whole lot of work on the part of your builder (possibly even modifications to the blueprints); it also reasonably requires an active, mechanical ventilation system. At this point, I'd suggest asking for two commitments from your builder: 1. That they will commit to testing & meeting the 3 ACH50 minimum even if the AHJ does not enforce it, and 2. That while doing said testing, they perform blower door directed air sealing even if 3 ACH50 is already met (IMO, the best way to do this is with a fog machine - smoke pouring out of a hole makes it clear that there is a quality problem that needs to be fixed. This video is an example of the testing, although it should really be performed before the siding goes on so that you have access to seal any leaks in the sheathing).
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May 13, 2016 19:53
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Zhentar posted:If you're planning on finishing the basement some day, then that's an extra argument for insulating the basement. Now is pretty much your only shot to put rigid insulation on the exterior of the foundation wall and under the slab, and doing so basically eliminates any concerns about moisture from condensation on the concrete. Combined with the good moisture management described in the estimate, it would pretty much mean you could forget about the "basement" part of finishing your basement and just finish it however you wanted, without worrying about water/mold at all. This is huge I think. Hes right that this is the only real time you can do it, and man, even if you aren't ever planning on finishing the basement I still think its worth it. More comfort, less worry and vastly more flexibility in the future. If there is a single thing I could magically change about my house, this would probably be it.
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May 13, 2016 20:06
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I just wanted to comment on earlier about adding timeframe constraints on the contract, yeah you want it on time and bonuses for early completion can be cool, but do you really want them rushing any aspect of a the build? Integrity aside, a nice juicy early completion bonus could put pressure on the low level grunt workers when the main contractors back is turned. Taping exterior sheeting gaps with tyvek tape or caulking can help with your air leakage, hardly anyone would like to do that for you though probably. Make sure they use sill seal foam on top of your foundation and try and get them to seal that gap best they can. That's an often neglected step.
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May 13, 2016 21:08
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galahan posted:I just wanted to comment on earlier about adding timeframe constraints on the contract, yeah you want it on time and bonuses for early completion can be cool, but do you really want them rushing any aspect of a the build? Integrity aside, a nice juicy early completion bonus could put pressure on the low level grunt workers when the main contractors back is turned. The extra push to try to get it done for the early completion bonus is what gets them to finish on schedule  galahan posted:Taping exterior sheeting gaps with tyvek tape or caulking can help with your air leakage, hardly anyone would like to do that for you though probably. The ZIP system Gounad's builder requires taping the seams to form a continuous WRB, so that part is already covered. (And if a builder that thinks taping seams is such an unreasonable burden that they refuse to do it, hiring them is probably not a good idea)
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May 13, 2016 22:11
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Why have an open fireplace when you can have a woodburner? I have one, heats the whole room and the kitchen next door, you get to look at fire and you can cook on it as well.
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May 14, 2016 07:21
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Are you even considering spray foam insulation instead of fiberglass? It's good stuff
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May 15, 2016 18:11
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Filling your stud cavities with spray foam is a great way to blow a lot of money on insulation but only get mediocre performance out of it.
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May 16, 2016 00:43
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Yeah it's flammable and too expensive, we had good results using it around windows and doors though. Cellulose, properly installed bats, and maybe rock wool is where it's at, supposedly, unless you are into strange like me and ideas like hempcrete or underground homes. I linked on like the first page an expensive way to build the walls for max R value, it's cost is only worth it over long periods, but energy bills would be miniscule.
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May 16, 2016 12:50
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