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waitwhatno posted:Most of Europe has visa-free travel with the US. Such an arrangement doesn't necessarily has to be a security risk. No we dont, most of Europe needs an electronic visa, same as with Turkey. That is not the same as visa free at all, visa free of course implies a security risk.
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Mar 8, 2016 12:15
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GaussianCopula posted:Interesting graph from the WSJ which shows that reforms can have pretty significant impact on unemployment. Just wanted to post it as a follow up to my post in the old thread a few days ago. Labour market reform is very much overrated as a solution to economic problems. Since 2012, we've had Draghi's promise to do 'whatever it takes' to save the euro effectively putting an end to the euro debt crisis, lower interest rates, QE, a falling euro, and lower oil prices, In Spain, there's been a a bailout of the banking sector and an easing of the rate of austerity. Moreover, the unemployment rate doesn't tell the whole story; there are now ~18 million people employed in Spain as compared to ~20 million in 2008, so the fall in unemployment is also in part explained by a reduction in the size of the labour force and migration. There's an exhaustive analysis here (.pdf) which I'm just going to quote because I'm lazy: quote:Spain is no poster child for fiscal austerity and structural reforms. The country’s recent growth performance itself is less impressive than it appears at first sight, and owes a lot to an easing of fiscal and monetary policies and a (temporary) boost to consumption from lower inflation. There is little to suggest that structural reforms are prompting companies to move up the value-chain. Spain’s relatively strong export performance largely reflects cost suppression and a strong rise in exports of fuels, raw materials and food, some which will be reversed as domestic demand picks up. And the flipside of cost suppression has been stagnant nominal GDP and hence little deleveraging: Spain remains a highly indebted economy. The country faces the daunting challenge of trying to improve productivity in a climate of persistently low inflation, high levels of domestic and external debt, restrictive macroeconomic policies and serious demographic problems. That's not to say that there isn't a whole lot of reform necessary, but that reform (depending on the country) should involve investments in education (particularly vocational education) as well as the public employment services, as well as more reliable unemployment benefits for flexible or marginally attached workers to promote mobility and prevent poverty. Simply focusing on more flexibilization doesn't help anyone in the long run, because in the best case it just creates lovely jobs that will be lost the moment the next recession hits.
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Mar 8, 2016 12:15
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GaussianCopula posted:Maybe you can spot the country on that list that has a direct border with Syria. Somehow I put a bit more trust in Israel being able to control its Syrian border.
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Mar 8, 2016 12:18
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Lagotto posted:No we dont, most of Europe needs an electronic visa, same as with Turkey. That is not the same as visa free at all, visa free of course implies a security risk. It's kinda amazing how you manage to be so consistently wrong with everything you say. Does that ever make you wonder that maybe you don't really "have it all figured out", when people keep correcting you all the time with objective reality? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program
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Mar 8, 2016 12:21
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LemonDrizzle posted:Probably not - Remain has a consistent lead in the polls (see below), and a consistent large lead in phone polls, which are traditionally more accurate than online polls. On top of that the two Leave campaigns are spending most of their time fighting with each other and whining about the way the government is running the Remain campaign rather than putting their case. My favorite alternate timeline: Scotland votes for independence, goes through with it. Scotland is automatically granted EU accession England leaves the EU Investments, corporations and people flee from England to Scotland to avoid complications stemming from a radical change in law Scotland becomes the dominant British power England votes to join Scotland The United Kingdom of Scotland and Assorted Peripheries is established The Stuart dynasty regains its rightful throne, the Windsor traitors are summarily executed
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Mar 8, 2016 12:36
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waitwhatno posted:It's kinda amazing how you manage to be so consistently wrong with everything you say. Does that ever make you wonder that maybe you don't really "have it 8 figured out", when people keep correcting you all the time with objective reality? Like I said, you need an electronic one. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_System_for_Travel_Authorization quote:The Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) is a United States government requirement (mandated by theImplementing Recommendations of the 9/11 Commission Act of 2007) for participating travelers from Visa Waiver Program (VWP) countries. ESTA is an automated system that determines the eligibility of visitors to travel to the U.S. under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP). Authorization via ESTA does not determine whether a traveler is admissible to the United States. U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers determine admissibility upon travelers’ arrival. The ESTA application collects biographic information and answers to VWP eligibility questions. ESTA applications may be submitted at any time prior to travel, though it is recommended that travelers apply as soon as they begin preparing travel plans or prior to purchasing airline tickets. What else have I been wrong about? You might not like my assessments or predictions but please make a case as to why I am wrong if you want to engage. Lagotto fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 12:54
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That's not a visa.
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Mar 8, 2016 12:57
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steinrokkan posted:That's not a visa. What's the material difference? It is literally the same system Turkey has in place with the EU. See also E-VISA.
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Mar 8, 2016 13:01
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To make a more serious post wrt labour laws/unemployment: Of course labour laws will have an impact on the labour-related figures, and you know what, neoliberal reforms just might bring unemployment down. The problem is that, whether they achieve that, and regardless of the scale of their effect on unemployment, they do it by actively changing what having a job means. Having a job gives you a certain amount of things such as monetary remuneration, contributions towards you future pension, a varying degree of job security, and those things form the gap between being employed and being unemployed. These reforms that GC loves so much attempt to reduce unemployment by closing the gap between being employed and being unemployed. That's loving rear end-backwards and ultimately hurts everyone as a whole, and it's thanks to stuff like that in spite of much lowered unemployment figures in a lot of countries since the crisis blew up, it still feels like the same crisis is still ongoing or that things are still worse than they were 8 years ago.
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Mar 8, 2016 13:06
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Lagotto posted:What's the material difference? It is literally the same system Turkey has in place with the EU. You can visit Turkey on special e-Visa, but you can't go from Turkey into Schengen without proper visa. Turkey is an Annex I country, with no special privileges.
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Mar 8, 2016 13:11
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steinrokkan posted:You can visit Turkey on special e-Visa, but you can't go from Turkey into Schengen without proper visa. Turkey is an Annex I country, with no special privileges. Your point being? That there is indeed a visa requirement for Schengen citizens for visiting the United States and Turkey? Cause then we can end the derail. The US would never allow visa free entry post 9-11 because of the security risks, implying that visa free entry does not increase the security risks is dumb.
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Mar 8, 2016 13:30
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Lagotto posted:Your point being? That there is indeed a visa requirement for Schengen citizens for visiting the United States and Turkey? Cause then we can end the derail. The US would never allow visa free entry post 9-11 because of the security risks, implying that visa free entry does not increase the security risks is dumb. Are you dense? Your claim was that "No we dont, most of Europe needs an electronic visa, same as with Turkey. That is not the same as visa free at all, visa free of course implies a security risk." The point is that Turkey has effectively waived their visa requirement for EU states, so even if they call it "e-Visa" it's hardly a visa compared to the full process required if you try to cross the border in the opposite direction (if you need to qualify something by adding a prefix it signifies a major difference from the original concept). If your argument is "The US actually requires visa from EU citizens because Turkey has something similar and there is the word visa buried somewhere in their system," I wonder if you sometimes demand to be allowed entry into a foreign country by waving your Visa credit card around.
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Mar 8, 2016 14:05
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steinrokkan posted:Are you dense? Your claim was that "No we dont, most of Europe needs an electronic visa, same as with Turkey. That is not the same as visa free at all, visa free of course implies a security risk." The point is that Turkey has waived their visa requirement for EU states, so even if they call it "e-Visa" it's not visa (if you need to qualify something by adding a prefix it signifies a major difference from the original concept). Maybe scroll back a few posts to what the discussion is about before you butt in. waitwhatno posted:Most of Europe has visa-free travel with the US. Such an arrangement doesn't necessarily has to be a security risk. Lagotto posted:No we dont, most of Europe needs an electronic visa, same as with Turkey. That is not the same as visa free at all, visa free of course implies a security risk. The point is that the only difference between a paper visa and an e-visa is the automation. Entry into the US and Turkey is not visa free at all.
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Mar 8, 2016 14:10
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waitwhatno posted:Most of Europe has visa-free travel with the US. Such an arrangement doesn't necessarily has to be a security risk. And? The whole point of Schengen isn't that it's visa-free, it's that it's passport-free. You can cross from Syria into Turkey, then take a bridge over the Bosphorus, and from there drive to Europe. Migrants take boats because Greece closed their land border with Turkey, not because there's no way to move on foot. When boarding an airliner, there's a lot of security measures that, no matter how easily bypassed they are, do not exist when you're just crossing a Schengen border in a car. Have you crossed Schengen borders in a car? I have. Guess how many uniformed people asking to check my papers, or even just being around at all, I have seen when doing so. 0 There's still checks when a European wants to go in the USA. For example: quote:As of January 2016, the visa waiver does not apply in cases where a person had previously traveled to Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria or Yemen on or after 1 March 2011 or for those who are dual citizens of Iran, Iraq, Sudan or Syria. Even with the VWP, you still need a biometric passport, what is effectively an electronic visa, a justification for your visit, and an onward or return ticket proving that you will leave within three months. How many of these things do you need to cross Schengen borders? 0
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Mar 8, 2016 14:14
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Cat Mattress posted:And? The whole point of Schengen isn't that it's visa-free, it's that it's passport-free. You can cross from Syria into Turkey, then take a bridge over the Bosphorus, and from there drive to Europe. Migrants take boats because Greece closed their land border with Turkey, not because there's no way to move on foot. Last I checked a visa waiver (placing a country into Annex II) doesn't put you into Schengen. There's still a border check, you know. When I crossed from Ukraine to Slovakia I, a Schengen citizen, was still pretty thoroughly inspected, all my luggage unpacked and each item examined individually, and I was questioned on basic questions of what I did in the country etc. That was just to curb smuggling - I can only imagine what they would do investigating a person without the freedom of movement status crossing from a potentially dangerous country. The Schengen checks can be as tough as you want them to be. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 14:16
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Cat Mattress posted:Effectively including Turkey in the Schengen area is the stupidest thing to come out of Europe in a long, long while. Sure we want the visa-free travel area to have a direct border with Syria, of course we do. Cat Mattress posted:And? The whole point of Schengen isn't that it's visa-free, it's that it's passport-free. Are multiple people using your account?
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Mar 8, 2016 14:19
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YF-23 posted:To make a more serious post wrt labour laws/unemployment: Of course labour laws will have an impact on the labour-related figures, and you know what, neoliberal reforms just might bring unemployment down. The problem is that, whether they achieve that, and regardless of the scale of their effect on unemployment, they do it by actively changing what having a job means. Having a job gives you a certain amount of things such as monetary remuneration, contributions towards you future pension, a varying degree of job security, and those things form the gap between being employed and being unemployed. These reforms that GC loves so much attempt to reduce unemployment by closing the gap between being employed and being unemployed. That's loving rear end-backwards and ultimately hurts everyone as a whole, and it's thanks to stuff like that in spite of much lowered unemployment figures in a lot of countries since the crisis blew up, it still feels like the same crisis is still ongoing or that things are still worse than they were 8 years ago.
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Mar 8, 2016 14:23
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Lagotto posted:What's the material difference? It is literally the same system Turkey has in place with the EU. ESTA is a formal check to confirm that you qualify for the visa waiver program. It is fully automatic and no decision is made whether you are allowed to enter the US or not. If you are not eligible for VWP, ESTA informs you beforehand, so that you can apply for a visa. A visa is given out by embassies/consulates, after checking your eligibility to enter the country. The process often involves a personal interview, presenting hotel reservations, financial statements, etc. You can be denied a visa for almost any reason. The practical difference is that with visa-free travel, you can just go online, whip out your credit card, fill out the online form stating that you are not a terrorist and that you do not have syphilis and hop on a plane. That's what Turkey wants.
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Mar 8, 2016 14:29
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Geriatric Pirate posted:How is it "backwards" to enact reforms so that a country produces as much as it consumes? Wages aren't just some arbitrary number the government controls but instead a measure (admittedly not a perfect one) of the productivity of employees. If for whatever reason an employee isn't producing enough value any more, why should they still be entitled to remuneration for the old value they produced? Companies aren't firing people because it's fun to fire people, they fire people because they're not making money any more. In many European countries the problem is that the truth is too difficult to accept, so instead of making any hard decisions, or let high unemployment dictate these decisions, governments try to cover the gap between productivity and wages itself by hiring a lot of people, taking on too much debt in the process. If wages truly were relative to productivity, you have to explain the wage stagnation from the '70s onwards somehow. I'm not buying the narrative that there's just less money to shuffle around, that is only true if you exclude the massive gains in relative wealth made by the rich (which the political establishments in most countries are glad to do, since you cannot really become part of that establishment without making friends with those sort of people).
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Mar 8, 2016 14:38
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waitwhatno posted:ESTA is a formal check to confirm that you qualify for the visa waiver program. It is fully automatic and no decision is made whether you are allowed to enter the US or not. If you are not eligible for VWP, ESTA informs you beforehand, so that you can apply for a visa. I know that is what Turkey wants, but the point is that this implies a security risk, so that is not something that in my opinion we should want. Your claim is that that is not necessarily true since Schengen has free visa travel to the States. I am sorry but that is not the case, as you can tell from your own post. And that is not even mentioning the ungodly amount of citizen data Schengen is pooring into the US databases and the extensive NSA databases the e-applications are crossed referenced with.
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Mar 8, 2016 14:49
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This might seem a bit tin-foil hat worthy, but considering all I've read about in Turkey and Erdogan's shenanigans, isn't it possible that with the proposed Turkey-EU migrant deal Erdogan can exploit this rather easily? What's to stop him from taking a bunch of Syrians in Turkey, stick them on boats supplied by "people smugglers" (aka AKP thugs), send them to Lesbos, bring them back, and then demand the EU take them in? This guy is pretty foot-loose and fancy free with the truth when it comes to ISIS, the Kurds, bombing his own people, press freedom, etc., so why should we expect him in any way to be honest about how many people he had to "heroically" stop from making the "terrible" crossing to Greece? The fact that Germany would even consider this to be a rational deal at all is mind boggling. The longer this migrant crisis goes on, the more Merkel starts to look more and more reactionary (as in responding to events rather than taking the initiative, not in terms of political leaning) and more desperate for someone to save her bacon. I mean, after the Paris attacks, how is it even politically feasible to suggest lowering security checks between the EU and a known ISIS transit country (Turkey)?
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Mar 8, 2016 14:50
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YF-23 posted:If wages truly were relative to productivity, you have to explain the wage stagnation from the '70s onwards somehow. I'm not buying the narrative that there's just less money to shuffle around, that is only true if you exclude the massive gains in relative wealth made by the rich (which the political establishments in most countries are glad to do, since you cannot really become part of that establishment without making friends with those sort of people). So many things here so I'm going to be a bit disorganized in my response: 1) The stagnating wages phenomenon is mainly a US phenomenon and, while partly valid, misses a lot of things such as rising healthcare costs and so on which form a part of compensation as well as an increasing population (wage growth is measured relative to US wages, not to the Mexican wages that Mexican immigrants to the US were originally paid) and so on. But it's a bit more complicated than just stagnating wages. Secondly, are we talking from the 70s now or the recent crisis? 2) In the EU, you don't really see the same gap to the same extent. Especially the EU's biggest crisis countries (Greece, Spain, Portugal) saw an opposite gap forming, at least relative to the rest of the EU, where wages rose more than productivity (both variables relative to the rest of the EU) since the 1990s. 3) With regards to the rich, the idea that the rich somehow benefited from the Euro crisis is crazy. Look at what's happened to the Greek stock market (measure of wealth for the rich) compared to wages and employment. Wages and employment might have fallen, a lot, but more than 70% of stock market wealth has been wiped out. I'm not saying the rich are worse off than the poor, but the idea that they've benefited from the crisis or made massive wealth gains is wrong.
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Mar 8, 2016 14:58
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Geriatric Pirate posted:So many things here so I'm going to be a bit disorganized in my response: The political crisis is in the USA and the core Western Euro countries, the periphery countries have problems of their own of course, but the shattering of the neoliberal consensus is something endogenous to the economic and political core. Stagnating wages in the US is a real and massive problem, and is a reflection of political dysfunction rather than any necessary economic conditions (why are healthcare and education costs rising? and also no, population growth is a bullshit answer, US population grew about the same percent from 1940-1970 as it did from 1970-2000) As for Western Europe, France and Germany have their own political issues with multiculturalism which they do not appear prepared to solve anytime soon icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 15:15
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Lagotto posted:I know that is what Turkey wants, but the point is that this implies a security risk, so that is not something that in my opinion we should want. Your claim is that that is not necessarily true since Schengen has free visa travel to the States. I am sorry but that is not the case, as you can tell from your own post. And that is not even mentioning the ungodly amount of citizen data Schengen is pooring into the US databases and the extensive NSA databases the e-applications are crossed referenced with. I don't know this for sure, but I think that the visa process is mostly there to filter out illegal immigrants/social system abuse. (confirming that you have financial independence, have health insurance, a return ticket, no intentions of working illegally, etc.) The security aspect of international travel is mostly realized through biometric passports, finger print readers, no-fly lists, international terrorist databases, etc. Mostly stuff that can be done without visas.
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Mar 8, 2016 16:43
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The way I see this plan, the money and the visa waivers aren't that much of an issue for now, and a relatively reasonable concession IF they stopped refugee flow completely. The big sticking points in my opinion: A) It creates a perverse incentive on Turkey's side to contibue allowing as many Syrians to be shipped to Greece as possible, as even if they're returned that would mean a net export of Syrian refugees to Europe. B) Who gets to take on the refugees received on the one-for-one system? Are they trying the quotas again? Everyone gets to go to Germany? C) This could of course backfire horribly, say under a scenario where Turkey starts a proper war in the south vs Assad/Kurds and then we see a bunch of refugees with Turkish passports making their way to Europe. Can Kurds in southern Turkey apply for asylum? The more I think about it, the messier it seems. Hell, I think GC's evil plan of sinking the loving boats as deterrance has a better chance to succeed than this. Freezer fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 17:11
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steinrokkan posted:My favorite alternate timeline: Actually my timeline would be to just have the good parts of England and Wales join. The rest can just become a large waste dump.
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Mar 8, 2016 17:45
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In about 90 min Slovenia will be the first country to #goBacktoSchengen (the stated goal of the EC) by requiring anyone who wants to enter the country from a non-Schengen country (especially Serbia) to have either a valid Schengen-visa or to be a refugee who wants to apply for asylum in Slovenia. For some strange reason AFP chose to illustrate this news with barbed wire instead of some more friendly stock images https://twitter.com/AFP/status/707282237792907264
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Mar 8, 2016 22:29
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steinrokkan posted:Last I checked a visa waiver (placing a country into Annex II) doesn't put you into Schengen. There's still a border check, you know. Ukraine to Slovakia?  Realized halfway through you probably meant by plane but decided to keep the question
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Mar 8, 2016 23:05
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Ukraine to Slovakia? There's a very popular border crossing with regular bus service between the railroad station in Uzhorod and the rail terminal in Michalovce, Slovakia.
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Mar 8, 2016 23:35
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Extreme0 posted:Actually my timeline would be to just have the good parts of England and Wales join. I always like the way Scottish nationalists say they'd let in Wales and the north to show how cool and inclusive they are, but either conspicuously avoid mentioning Northern Ireland or are openly hostile to the notion that they would have to shoulder any responsibility there despite having much stronger cultural links.
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Mar 9, 2016 03:28
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I'm just going to leave this here for you to ponder the implications https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/707485360805253120 #nobel2016
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Mar 9, 2016 10:14
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So apparently the impetus for the new Turkish deal with resettlement and visa-free Schengen access for Turkish citizens didn't come from the Turks at all - it was pushed by Merkel, behind everyone else's back: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f6c982ec-e54e-11e5-ac45-5c039e797d1c.html#axzz42OW2bIURquote:Behind the backs of some her closest European allies, Angela Merkel, German chancellor, struck a deal with her Turkish counterpart that could very well end the influx of refugees washing up on Europe’s shores — but at a very high price, including an extra €3bn in aid and a visa-free travel scheme.
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Mar 9, 2016 10:21
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khwarezm posted:I always like the way Scottish nationalists say they'd let in Wales and the north to show how cool and inclusive they are, but either conspicuously avoid mentioning Northern Ireland or are openly hostile to the notion that they would have to shoulder any responsibility there despite having much stronger cultural links. Probably their position on Ulster is that, if anything, it should rejoin with Ireland.
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Mar 9, 2016 11:46
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Cat Mattress posted:Probably their position on Ulster is that, if anything, it should rejoin with Ireland. Northern Ireland runs around a £7bn a year deficit. Its a huge money sink. Any relatively recent polls in Ireland show the majority of the population don't want it back, Scotland can have it.
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Mar 9, 2016 13:31
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LemonDrizzle posted:So apparently the impetus for the new Turkish deal with resettlement and visa-free Schengen access for Turkish citizens didn't come from the Turks at all - it was pushed by Merkel, behind everyone else's back: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f6c982ec-e54e-11e5-ac45-5c039e797d1c.html#axzz42OW2bIUR Haha, Merkel is truly the Frank Underwood of European politics. It would be hilarious if she knew that deal was never gonna be agreed to, but alienated everyone by pushing for it just to get an election boost. Freezer fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Mar 9, 2016 |
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Mar 9, 2016 14:11
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Freezer posted:Haha, Merkel is truly the Frank Underwood of European politics. It would be hilarious if she knew that deal was never gonna be agreed to, but alienated everyone by pushing for it just to get an election boost. Merkel most certainly is no Frank Underwood or can you imagine her having sex with a 20 something year old reporter? (If you can, I'm sorry because that image will haunt you for the rest of your life)
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Mar 9, 2016 14:23
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GaussianCopula posted:Merkel most certainly is no Frank Underwood or can you imagine her having sex with a 20 something year old reporter? (If you can, I'm sorry because that image will haunt you for the rest of your life) Don't forget the threesome with her security detail!
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Mar 9, 2016 14:35
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Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Mar 9, 2016 |
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Mar 9, 2016 14:42
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Griffen posted:This might seem a bit tin-foil hat worthy, but considering all I've read about in Turkey and Erdogan's shenanigans, isn't it possible that with the proposed Turkey-EU migrant deal Erdogan can exploit this rather easily? What's to stop him from taking a bunch of Syrians in Turkey, stick them on boats supplied by "people smugglers" (aka AKP thugs), send them to Lesbos, bring them back, and then demand the EU take them in? This guy is pretty foot-loose and fancy free with the truth when it comes to ISIS, the Kurds, bombing his own people, press freedom, etc., so why should we expect him in any way to be honest about how many people he had to "heroically" stop from making the "terrible" crossing to Greece? The fact that Germany would even consider this to be a rational deal at all is mind boggling. The longer this migrant crisis goes on, the more Merkel starts to look more and more reactionary (as in responding to events rather than taking the initiative, not in terms of political leaning) and more desperate for someone to save her bacon. I mean, after the Paris attacks, how is it even politically feasible to suggest lowering security checks between the EU and a known ISIS transit country (Turkey)? You're actually right that Erdogan is completely untrustworthy and this deal is basically giving him license to run roughshod on the EU in the future. But for the short-term, it will give Merkel the political illusion of 'fixing' this thing, by saying: "Hah! Take THAT Austria! Look at me, makin' dealz with Turkey and no more immigrants stuck in Greece nyah!" and not realizing that in 1 or 2 years, when all those refugees get shuttled from Turkey to Germany, the rest of the EU will still be saying: "gently caress off" to Merkel's demands to redistribute them. Then she gets to do another song and dance of: "How can the EU be so cruel while Germans are so self-sacrificing?!" and have her poll numbers remain steady for a little while longer, as she pretends she's doing anything but being bent over and hosed over by Erdogan's circumcised cock. GaussianCopula posted:In about 90 min Slovenia will be the first country to #goBacktoSchengen (the stated goal of the EC) by requiring anyone who wants to enter the country from a non-Schengen country (especially Serbia) to have either a valid Schengen-visa or to be a refugee who wants to apply for asylum in Slovenia. How dare you bismirch that fine razor wire we erected all along our border to Croatia! Don't you know how much wildlife and flooded vegetation it stopped from migrating from down there? 
CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Mar 9, 2016 |
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Mar 9, 2016 15:42
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CSU(hillbilly party; the party that has been ruling the state of Bavaria for all of its history) demands for Turkey to be declared a secure state, before any visa-free travel agreement can take place. They don't want any Turkish/Kurdish tourist to come here and apply for asylum from the Erdogan regime. Meta irony on top of meta irony. It's meta all the way down.
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Mar 9, 2016 15:51
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