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Dwight Eisenhower
Jan 24, 2006

Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.


Negotiation is one of the better ways to improve your compensation and progress your career while engaging in the less privileged side of wage slavery. Goons employing negotiation tactics during salary negotiations frequently end up gaining multiple thousands of dollars a year in additional compensation, more paid time off, and more valuable benefits. KYOON GRIFFEY JR has set up a shared spreadsheet that shows just how much total benefit negotiating compensation has brought goons. In many cases, simply asking and being confident is enough to carry you to victory, but it's important to understand a little bit of negotiation theory and a few hard and fast rules to succeed!

Why negotiate?

The easiest way to get a significant raise is to change jobs. There is never a better opportunity to negotiate a higher salary than when you are handed a job offer that you have not yet accepted. In addition, two common biases come into play. First impression bias means that people will tend to perceive you as being at the level you start out at, no matter how long you work at a company. By negotiating a better starting salary or title, you're perceived as more competent from the start. In addition, this explains why you're more likely to get a big raise when you change jobs than if you stay in your current job. The other bias is a form of confirmation bias. If you convince someone to pay you more money, they're going to look for reasons why you're worth more money. It's backwards, but because of this the people at the top of the salary range get the largest raises on average.

Or, more materially, check out this post from tentawesome after reading this thread:

tentawesome posted:

I want to thank this thread for getting me a new job with better pay, better benefits, and more PTO.

My currently income is 29k/year, and I'm living paycheck to paycheck. The standard for my industry is working under 2 year contracts. My current contract ends mid-January, and I went into my contract re-signing meeting earlier this month with a ton of information about our market and the average income for someone working in this industry; someone working in this city and this particular position should be making $33k, and I asked for $35k to reflect my experience and the fact I am the senior most employee doing this particular job. Instead I was offered a 1.5% raise and told, quote, "This isn't a negotiation. This is what we're offering you." I declined and was told my last day was January 12th.

In the meantime, I've been pursuing opportunities in other cities. After getting interviews for a dozen different positions and offers from multiple locations, I was able to successfully negotiate $46k/yr in a different part of the country with a climate I vastly prefer, as well as compensation for moving costs and a free hotel stay until I find somewhere to live, in exchange for being willing to start just a week after my current contract ends. This is despite me only having 2 years experience in an industry that tends to value experience over my very expensive college degree, and is about $5k over the average for this city and $10k over average for my experience level.

This is the advice from this thread I think that made the biggest difference:
Be willing to walk away.
Get a lot of interviews, and multiple offers.
Be willing to negotiate for things besides just salary.

Or, let's put a bit finer point on it and look at exactly what it costs NOT to negotiate, as related by Goodpancakes' colleague:

Goodpancakes posted:

He called me asking for a reference and that's when I found out he was the other candidate. I asked him what he asked for and he told me 22 an hour. I was totally stunned. I told him then on the phone what they told me. 58-72. At that point he didn't know what they were going to offer him. His negotiation for pay would begin the next day when they officially sent a written offer. Why he didn't ask for more money then I do not know. Maybe he couldn't believe how loving terribly underpaid his previous position was. He trained me at my last position, has a few years more experience, and a certification and I negotiated to be paid more then him when we worked together. Because I was making more then 22 an hour then.

This is what happens when you don't know what you are worth and how to negotiate.



BATNA: The Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement

Pretty much every post that offers advice in this thread will start talking about the BATNAs involved as Kalenn Istarion got us to coalesce around this useful linguistic concept. Simply put, the BATNA is what will happen if one or both parties walk away from a compromised deal. When you have a good BATNA, you can demand more from the other party. When the other party has a good BATNA, they can demand more from you. All negotiation centers around the BATNAs involved, and it is important to understand that both you and your prospective employer each have a BATNA. A good negotiator is not only contemplating their own BATNA, but is also contemplating the other party's BATNA. As an example, if you have applied to a job at two different companies, and one (let's call them Generous) is offering 10% more than the other (Stingy), then your BATNA with Stingy is to walk away and and take the offer from Generous. This gives you more leverage when negotiating with Stingy; if they walk away and refuse to meet your demands then you have an objectively better alternative! However it also means that you don't have as good a BATNA with Generous, as if they decide to walk away you are immediately left only with the worse opportunity available from Stingy. If you frame your negotiations in terms of BATNA you may not always get exactly what you want, but you'll get close to the best available.

THE RULES
1. Never tell a new employer what you are currently making: This information is not relevant to their offer, and it is not relevant to their other options. Employers ask for this information to anchor your expectations around what you are currently making. If an employer is asking for this information, politely decline, and offer instead to talk about what kind of compensation you are looking for from them. If they absolutely insist on you telling them what you used to make, you may want to walk away and find another opportunity. See Tactics below for more discussion about this.
2. Try not to lead in disclosing a target salary: If you can get an offered salary from a prospective employer, instead of offering a salary you would take the job at, then you will often come up with a better outcome. Whoever states a hard and fast number first will anchor the further discussion in the context of that number. If you state a number out the gate, then the employer will either accept that offer, or try to push down from that point. If the employer states a number out the gate, then you will either accept that number, or try to push it higher. Establishing a floor and going up has better outcomes than establishing a ceiling and going down!
3. DO NOT GIVE A SALARY RANGE: A salary range tells an employer three things: You don't know how to negotiate, that you're not holding a firm position, and that you'll accept the bottom of that salary range. What possible value is there in you telling an employer a salary range instead of telling them the number at the top of the range? For the employer it puts a cap on how much they might have to pay you, it tells them that you're volunteering to be bullied down to the bottom of that range, and that you really don't know what you're doing. For you it does nothing good.
4. Try to gracefully move salary negotiation as late in the process as possible: A common thing is for an interviewer to ask for a salary requirement early in the process. This makes little sense from your point of view. For you to give a number, you would need to know the details about the entire package. In bolind's working environment, pension comes on top of the salary, and can be anywhere from 0-20%. Many interviewers request salary demands before granting information about their other tangible benefits, which is just... strange. Discussing a salary out the gate can be a way for an employer to reject you outright, when if they sat down and found out more about you they'd be happy to pay your requested target. If they have a salary number in mind while interviewing, it colors every interaction and evaluation with the question "is this person worth what they are asking?" It is better to have created a compelling case for why you should be hired so that your prospective employer can vividly imagine you being a part of the team, and then attaching a price tag to that reality.
5. Be thoughtful about what information you give the other party: This relates to rule 1 above. Information that you give an employer lets them more comprehensively understand your BATNA, and if that information removes uncertainty to show them that you have a worse BATNA than they might have thought, they'll get more aggressive. Conversely, information that demonstrates you have a better BATNA demonstrates you will be more willing to walk away and go with your BATNA.
6. Know when you've won: It is important to know when you've won. When you set out to negotiate, have a clear goal in mind, and if the other party is willing to meet that goal, then you are probably best served in most cases to agree to the deal then and there. You are taking a certain victory that meets your goal at the outset over risking coming off greedy. (And if you can't stop somewhere and be satisfied, you ARE being greedy!)
7. The best time to find a new job is when you have one you don't already hate: This is self evident if you think about BATNA's, if you hate your current job then literally anything else is possibly better, and it is very hard for you to walk away and keep working at your job you hate. Get ahead of the ball and start looking when things look bad, don't wait for them to look hopeless.
8. Practice makes perfect: A lot of good negotiating comes from confidence and consistency. If you aren't used to talking about money, let alone demanding it forcefully, then it can feel awkward to have a discussion about your future salary. If you negotiate enough eventually you'll get good at it and it will feel natural. The best way to practice is to go on interviews and get to the offer stage. Getting to the offer stage does NOT represent a commitment on your part to accept. But if you do it frequently enough you'll start feeling less awkward an be able to present a smoother and more confident image that WILL help you get what you want!
9: Consider the whole package: You don't want to accept $5k more a year only to find out you get 2 weeks less vacation. This also gets you more room to negotiate, maybe the other party can't or won't come up in salary, but a week more of vacation or a signing bonus or something else is totally appropriate. When you understand your offerer's total position, you can get more of what you want and less of what you don't.
10: At the end of negotiations, if you both accept, get everything in writing: Ideally everything will be presented to you in the form of a written offer letter. If it is, consider the offer to be ONLY the contents of that written offer letter, because that is what your employer will do. If you need adjustments, get a new offer letter that reflects those adjustments! Additionally, some people who are perfectly reasonable to work with and will grant you great opportunities, yet are reluctant to use their written communication skills. If you get something verbally agreed to on the phone, write it down as you're conversing. At the end of the conversation write an email that outlines everything discussed on the call, leading off with something like "Thanks for all your help! Just to confirm what we spoke about on the phone: <your notes go here!>" Make sure to get a response that confirms what you wrote down!

Tactics

It's easy to have a list of rules, but putting them into practice can be difficult. One of the hardest challenges you will frequently encounter when interviewing for a job is a person who wants your previous salary. In extreme cases you might have to be ready to terminate all interviewing in order to keep this information held close. Whether you fold and grant this information, or get up and walk is up to you, but I will say this: in all of my experiences interviewing I've never met an interviewer who won't flinch and accept you not disclosing your present salary if you stick to your guns. For the interviewers who will happily tank a job application over you not telling them what you currently make, that opportunity might not be that great.

bolind adds:

bolind posted:

Don't tell them your current salary

First, a lot of employers, and an even larger ratio of recruiters, can be very insistent on knowing your current salary. This is very important knowledge to them, as it gives them several benefits.
  • If the new position pays significantly less, they know they should cut their losses and not progress with the candidate.
  • It tells them what the candidate would be happy with (current salary plus a modest increase.)
  • It let's them, given more than one roughly equally attractive candidate, the option of getting the cheapest one.
Companies, and recruiters, will come up with all sorts of sorry rear end excuses for knowing your current salary. All of them are bullshit. Here's a list of responses, ordered by snarkiness:
  • "I'd rather not say."
  • "I don't see how it pertains to our current discussion, I'd much rather talk about my potential role in this company, and how we could benefit each other if I came on board."
  • "I'm contractually obligated not to disclose that information."
  • "I don't know, why don't you tell me what the budget is for this position/what you pay people like me currently?"
  • "I don't know, what's your salary?"
  • "Gentlemen, thank you for your time and the coffee. I wish you the best of luck filling the position. Don't worry, I know the way out. Good day."
Interviewers pressing this issue are most likely people you wouldn't like to work for, and it's a huge red flag. Consider this: by pressuring the candidate on this issue, they're doing three things:
  1. They're bullying the candidate to show his hand in the negotiation.
  2. They're going to hire a candidate who's dumb enough to do that. (Think about that for a second. How will a candidate dumb enough to do that behave when, after being hired, having to negotiate on behalf of the department or company? How dumb will he be when he writes code/designs bridges/sells stuff?)
  3. They (often) have no way to verify the candidate's information, so he could be lying through his teeth, making this information useless anyways.
    There's a few instances where you could let your current salary slip, in order to anchor the negotiation in your favor. Examples could be if you're vastly overpaid and you know it, if you're OK with making a horizontal move salary-wise because you'll benefit in other ways (better commute, more interesting tasks, better bennies etc.) But those cases are few and far between.
TL;DR: Never disclose your current salary, and walk away if they press the issue.

Corben Goble-Garbus provides us the following link for further reading: avoiding discussing current salary. Also it covers other subjects, and, one of the presenters is named Doody. :neckbeard:

Can I Negotiate?

Lots of posters come to this thread asking if they can negotiate, or if negotiating is worth the risk that an offer gets pulled. Dik Hz has stayed on top of this question admirably, and the best way it's been put is:

Dik Hz posted:

I have learned the hard way that if anyone ever tries to punish you for negotiating, they are someone that you should not work for.

I have also learned that when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

When to Negotiate?

Eric the Mauve posted:

You’d think it’d be obvious but maybe we should add “Never accept an offer without knowing any numbers” to the thread title.

Negotiation is making explicit terms under which a mutually desired outcome is accepted. The terms dictate if the outcome is mutually desirable. If you accept a job offer, or a promotion, or otherwise grant your consent for an outcome over which you are responsible, negotiation is over. If you do this without understanding compensation packages, or raises, or bonuses, then you have told the other party that these things are not important to you. Get all the important details explicitly communicated in writing before you agree to anything.

Regarding negotiating internal moves:

quote:

Hello, I have read through the OP and I have one question. What about when you're interviewing for a different position at the same company? I may have an opportunity to interview for a different position in the same department I currently work. They already know my current pay so that chip is off the table.

Ultimate Mango posted:

You have zero leverage with your current employer without an offer from someone else.

BATNA. Always BATNA. Yours is the job you have. They have all the power.

The only way that you could maybe get some leverage is if you're in a big enough company that you could get TWO internal positions competing for you. You will still end up working within HR's pay bands. You will never be able to negotiate as powerfully on an internal position as you will with a different employer: there's no information asymmetry for you to play with in any direction. Depending on where you work, and what other options for employment you have, this may not mean that you end up with a worse outcome, but it will always be with less negotiating power.

Lots of people have provided good advice in previous negotiating threads, but it's worth calling out the following goons specifically for their consistently great advice, willingness to help, and contributions to this OP: KYOON GRIFFEY JR, bolind, Jedi Knight Luigi, Chaucer, Dik Hz, MickeyFinn, swenblack, Kalenn Istarion, Boot and Rally, Corben Goble-Garbus, tentawesome, Goodpancakes, and Eric the Mauve

Thanks goons!

Dwight Eisenhower fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Feb 3, 2021

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Dik Hz
Feb 22, 2004

Fun with Science

Excellent OP, Dwight. I want to add a common piece of advice from the old thread. If someone tries to punish you for negotiating, they are a shithead and you do not want to work for them or be associated with them. Not all positions are negotiable, but you should certainly treat them all as negotiable.

Also, another common one that gets asked and answered often: Don't tell a recruiter your target salary. They get paid when they place you, and if they can convince you to take less money they are more likely to place you. Tell them that you will carefully consider the complete compensation package for each offer you receive, just like you would an employer directly.

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Mar 15, 2016

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Dik Hz posted:

Excellent OP, Dwight. I want to add a common piece of advice from the old thread. If someone tries to punish you for negotiating, they are a shithead and you do not want to work for them or be associated with them. Not all positions are negotiable, but you should certainly treat them all as negotiable.

Also, another common one that gets asked and answered often: Don't tell a recruiter your target salary. They get paid when they place you, and if they can convince you to take less money they are more likely to place you. Tell them that you will carefully consider the complete compensation package for each offer you receive, just like you would an employer directly.

This has probably been covered a hundred times over in the other thread but I don't remember ever seeing it within the past few months... why is this such a firm belief in SA when there's a lot of research that suggests anchoring (being the one to give a number first) could potentially be even better?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring#In_negotiations

It feels like there are two polar opposites here (offer first or have them offer first), both of which have advantages and disadvantages.

Guinness
Sep 15, 2004

In most cases most people low ball themselves out of the gate. It's a two-fold problem: know what you're worth and have the confidence to demand it. If you feel that you have those two things, go for it, put your number out first. Anchoring can go both ways.

But most people don't (even though they should). It's easier to generalize and recommend against it in most cases. There are always exceptions.

Dik Hz
Feb 22, 2004

Fun with Science

Blinky2099 posted:

This has probably been covered a hundred times over in the other thread but I don't remember ever seeing it within the past few months... why is this such a firm belief in SA when there's a lot of research that suggests anchoring (being the one to give a number first) could potentially be even better?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring#In_negotiations

It feels like there are two polar opposites here (offer first or have them offer first), both of which have advantages and disadvantages.
Anchoring works better if the other party doesn't have a number in mind already. The hiring manager knows what the last guy got paid and knows what her budget is, generally. So she's already anchored. By throwing out a higher number, she'll just pass. If you throw out a lower number, you cripple your position. Your best bet is to get them interested before salary is discussed.

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web
I had to go back and look at the old BFC thread where I asked for help negotiating a raise. For anchoring, my boss started negotiations off by writing down $60k on a notepad and saying "how does this sound to you?" (it was weird, like being in a car dealership). I immediately brought out a page where I'd detailed out the two highball offers I had written up - $117k or $85k with bonuses, and gave my reasoning. It helped that I had a side job that I could have depended on for income if he didn't want to keep me, but I knew he wanted to keep me. Imo, you need to have a backup plan ready, or you're going to panic and give in too early during negotiations.

swenblack
Jan 14, 2004
Great post, Dwight. Also, thanks for setting up the spreadsheet Kyoon.

Blinky2099 posted:

This has probably been covered a hundred times over in the other thread but I don't remember ever seeing it within the past few months... why is this such a firm belief in SA when there's a lot of research that suggests anchoring (being the one to give a number first) could potentially be even better?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring#In_negotiations

It feels like there are two polar opposites here (offer first or have them offer first), both of which have advantages and disadvantages.
The biggest problem with trying to anchor salary negotiations is the information asymmetry involved. When I hire someone, I know exactly how much budget I have approved as well as the salary structure of my division. I would completely ignore any attempt to upwardly anchor your salary, and I suspect most hiring managers would do likewise.

I wholeheartedly endorse anchoring for people with unique skillsets or who are in extreme demand, like classified cyber-security professionals or experienced pediatric neurosurgeons. But for the purposes of this thread in advising people how to negotiate their first salary or raise, resisting giving out a number first is generally a better strategy.

Kalenn Istarion
Nov 2, 2012

Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av

Blinky2099 posted:

This has probably been covered a hundred times over in the other thread but I don't remember ever seeing it within the past few months... why is this such a firm belief in SA when there's a lot of research that suggests anchoring (being the one to give a number first) could potentially be even better?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring#In_negotiations

It feels like there are two polar opposites here (offer first or have them offer first), both of which have advantages and disadvantages.

Anchoring can be positive if you are certain you are anchoring upwards of where you might otherwise achieve. Most people when changing jobs don't have a good sense for what they should be worth in a new job and so any anchoring, especially in the context of your old salary, will tend to be unfavourable. That's not to say it should never be done, but this is a thread targeted mostly at people who don't have a huge amount of negotiating experience or the knowledge of the recruiting process to make them successful at it. If you are informed enough about the role and your worth in it, as well as the benefits of anchoring expectations upwards then you probably aren't the right audience for this thread in any case.

By way of counter-example, in a recent negotiation for my own salary and title for a new job, I had a strong expectation that had I not anchored value upwards I would have got an outcome that was poorer in both title and pay. I had a host of reasons for this expectation but it came down to having good intel on where my potential employer was thinking in terms of comp and title. I had an opportunity to reframe the discussion around a broader role with higher pay and made sure to position myself to get that. It helped a great deal that my BATNA was very strong so I was in a position to walk if they hadn't accepted the entirety of my proposal.

It isn't always the right answer to let the party you're negotiating with set expectations, but in salary negotiations by inexperienced negotiators it often is, to the point where the best advice for the greatest number of people is 'let them speak first and you'll probably be positively surprised'.

Dik Hz posted:

Anchoring works better if the other party doesn't have a number in mind already. The hiring manager knows what the last guy got paid and knows what her budget is, generally. So she's already anchored. By throwing out a higher number, she'll just pass. If you throw out a lower number, you cripple your position. Your best bet is to get them interested before salary is discussed.

This too

Most companies have a fairly firm expectation (approved budget, salary ranges in larger companies, etc) before they even look at your resume. Your job is to find out what that is without giving your own hand away. If you do that you now have an informational advantage which can help you position yourself better relative to those expectations.

Dwight Eisenhower
Jan 24, 2006

Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.
I agree that for most of the people we are advising in this thread, stalwartly attempting not to disclose a target is better than trying to anchor upwards. What would make an individual an exception to that general rule?

1) One has fresh (past 6 months) data indicating that one would be anchoring upward instead of downward.
2) One is ready to accept at the offered number; it would constitute an unambiguous win.
3) One has reasonable suspicion that the anchor number is sufficiently viable to either be accepted or to only get marginal reduction.

If all three are true, then yeah, anchor up.

I actually just recently accepted a new job which should be significantly better than my old gig, but I had a LOT of dimensions that helped me out. I disclosed a target salary and effectively anchored up. The job involved people who I have worked with in the past. I enjoyed working with all of them, and they all enjoyed working with me. Before even talking about me actually working there, I had precise information about what their compensation packages were as well as if these packages were increases and by what magnitude they were increases. I spent a total of about a half hour interviewing because their CTO wanted to know who I was and what I was about but wasn't evaluating my skillset or other day to day dimensions. Basically every card in the deck was stacked in my favor along the concerns of information asymmetries, fit for the role, and BATNA. If I didn't accept I'd just keep working at my frustrating but entirely adequate and objectively good job. With all of this in mind once we got to the offer stage I said "I'll sign today for $X." and got back an immediate "Done!"

This means I almost certainly could have gotten more; and so I was not demonstrating the most aggressive negotiating. But I set up a realistic goal that would be a significant material improvement and knew when I had won, and I also knew I wasn't leaving much on the table considering the compensation of the person who hired me.

Kalenn Istarion
Nov 2, 2012

Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

I agree that for most of the people we are advising in this thread, stalwartly attempting not to disclose a target is better than trying to anchor upwards. What would make an individual an exception to that general rule?

1) One has fresh (past 6 months) data indicating that one would be anchoring upward instead of downward.
2) One is ready to accept at the offered number; it would constitute an unambiguous win.
3) One has reasonable suspicion that the anchor number is sufficiently viable to either be accepted or to only get marginal reduction.

If all three are true, then yeah, anchor up.

I actually just recently accepted a new job which should be significantly better than my old gig, but I had a LOT of dimensions that helped me out. I disclosed a target salary and effectively anchored up. The job involved people who I have worked with in the past. I enjoyed working with all of them, and they all enjoyed working with me. Before even talking about me actually working there, I had precise information about what their compensation packages were as well as if these packages were increases and by what magnitude they were increases. I spent a total of about a half hour interviewing because their CTO wanted to know who I was and what I was about but wasn't evaluating my skillset or other day to day dimensions. Basically every card in the deck was stacked in my favor along the concerns of information asymmetries, fit for the role, and BATNA. If I didn't accept I'd just keep working at my frustrating but entirely adequate and objectively good job. With all of this in mind once we got to the offer stage I said "I'll sign today for $X." and got back an immediate "Done!"

This means I almost certainly could have gotten more; and so I was not demonstrating the most aggressive negotiating. But I set up a realistic goal that would be a significant material improvement and knew when I had won, and I also knew I wasn't leaving much on the table considering the compensation of the person who hired me.

This is perhaps unsurprisingly similar to the situation that led to me doing the same thing. Good salary visibility, known quantity, etc. I can say in my case I hit the absolute ceiling for the role though - there was no scenario where I was getting paid more than the person immediately senior to me. Matching what they got was a huge win.

Knyteguy
Jul 6, 2005

YES to love
NO to shirts


Toilet Rascal
Thanks Dwight, that was a good read. I got bit in the rear end by the "don't offer up a salary range" the last offer I got. He of course took the lowest end of that and ran with it.

Analytic Engine
May 18, 2009

not the analytical engine

Knyteguy posted:

Thanks Dwight, that was a good read. I got bit in the rear end by the "don't offer up a salary range" the last offer I got. He of course took the lowest end of that and ran with it.

Another confirmation here. I got a good offer from a great small company whose CTO personally endorsed me, and they anchored the salary right to the low end of my $20K range. There was a statement that we can renegotiate a raise at 6 months but it's pretty clear what happened.

swenblack
Jan 14, 2004
If this thread does nothing else, convincing people not to give a range will make the world a better place. Think about it this way, if you go to buy a toaster, and the cashier says the toaster costs $10-20, would you ever consider paying more than $10?

El Mero Mero
Oct 13, 2001

What are people's opinion about just lying about your current salary (or inflating it) and then using that number to negotiate slightly up from?

rouliroul
Mar 8, 2005

I'm all-in.

El Mero Mero posted:

What are people's opinion about just lying about your current salary (or inflating it) and then using that number to negotiate slightly up from?

It's unethical.

swenblack
Jan 14, 2004

El Mero Mero posted:

What are people's opinion about just lying about your current salary (or inflating it) and then using that number to negotiate slightly up from?
You'll likely get away with it the first time you do it, but if you make it a habit, it'll catch up with you and you won't like the consequences.

Additionally, there's no need to lie. Not disclosing your current salary and simply stating your salary requirement will accomplish the same thing.

Kalenn Istarion
Nov 2, 2012

Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av

El Mero Mero posted:

What are people's opinion about just lying about your current salary (or inflating it) and then using that number to negotiate slightly up from?

Pointless and deceptive. It's the reason we say it's important to avoid talking about current salary and instead focus on expectations relative to the role. If I ever caught someone doing this I'd immediately throw their resume in the bin, regardless of other merits.

El Mero Mero
Oct 13, 2001

See I think that's interesting if only because the metaphor that's always used in the negotiating rhetoric is poker. So there's no room for bluffing? Since bluffing's not a good course of action, why not ask the employer how much they have budgeted for the position during the interview, or is that another no-no?

Kalenn Istarion
Nov 2, 2012

Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av

El Mero Mero posted:

See I think that's interesting if only because the metaphor that's always used in the negotiating rhetoric is poker. So there's no room for bluffing? Since bluffing's not a good course of action, why not ask the employer how much they have budgeted for the position during the interview, or is that another no-no?

Bluffing is not necessarily lying. In poker, the best bluffs are representing a stronger hand with a chance for improvement. Depending on how aggressive you want to be it's certainly an option to represent a BATNA that doesn't exist or that is better than you currently have (if you don't accept my counter offer I'll walk and take some other job), but you have to be prepared to live your representation whether it's real or not. If you represent a BATNA that is better than the offer you're facing and then accept their offer under pressure they'll immediately know you're full of poo poo and you'll start your new job with a credibility problem. Just like in poker, your credibility had value. Unlike in poker, being caught in a bluff can mean you get fired or don't get an offer. It's just not worth it.

As for asking what the salary band is, you can do it, but it's better to first convince the company that they need to have you, and then base your salary negotiations around that need, rather than talking about what the range for a more generic candidate is before you've had a chance to demonstrate your impact.

bolind
Jun 19, 2005



Pillbug

El Mero Mero posted:

What are people's opinion about just lying about your current salary (or inflating it) and then using that number to negotiate slightly up from?

I'd say that the counterexample is a company lying about a salary to you. I once accepted an offer of $X, and my boss attached the words "That's at the very high end of what we usually pay people in your role." I have no reason to believe that wasn't true, but assume I later found out he was lying, that person and that company would lose a significant chunk of my respect.

So, if the lie is plausible and/or you're 99% sure it'll never be found out, sure, go for it. But realize you're betting a huge amount of your credibility, which may be worth a lot of money long term.

My advice would still be to keep your current salary entirely out of the negotiation. Look at it this way: if the hiring company is willing to pay you $Y after knowing that you currently make 0.95 x $Y, they should also be willing to pay you $Y for your skills alone. They're definitely able to; they just admitted as much.

Dwight Eisenhower
Jan 24, 2006

Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

El Mero Mero posted:

What are people's opinion about just lying about your current salary (or inflating it) and then using that number to negotiate slightly up from?

In addition to what everyone else has said, I think it's just plain cowardly. Why deliberately misinform about your current compensation when asked instead of just saying "No, I know that trap and I'm not going to play along"?

If you can't earnestly confront and subdue a problem like someone asking what you currently make, then how are you going to have the backbone to walk away from a bad offer?

Prince Turveydrop
May 12, 2001

He was a veray parfit gentil knight.
As far as I am aware, your previous employer can confirm what your salary was. I heard a secondhand story of a big consulting firm pulling an offer after learning that their new hire lied.

If I had a gun to my head, I'd frame the dollar figure as my "total compensation," hoping they'd misinterpret and giving me an out if they asked why my number is 20% above my base salary. My company actually quantifies my total comp in a year-end report every year so I'd have the perfect excuse.

Prince Turveydrop fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 18, 2016

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

Chaucer posted:

As far as I am aware, your previous employer can confirm what your salary was. I heard a secondhand story of a big consulting firm pulling an offer after learning that their new hire lied.

If I had a gun to my head, I'd frame the dollar figure as my "total compensation," hoping they'd misinterpret and giving me an out if they asked why my number is 20% above my base salary. My company actually quantifies my total comp in a year-end report every year so I'd have the perfect excuse.

Total comp is way more important than salary anyways. I never tell them what I make. If they ask for a number I just say it depends on the total comp.

My company does the same year end report, pretty neat to look at.

poeticoddity
Jan 14, 2007
"How nice - to feel nothing and still get full credit for being alive." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five
I would like to solicit some unusual negotiation advice in advance of when I may need it.

How should one approach requests for modifications to the offered contract that fall outside of traditional compensation? Specifically, I'm hoping to have it explicitly stated (whenever I find a job) that I retain IP rights to anything developed outside of the company and that is not derivative or related work. (I am comfortable with a company keeping IP rights to anything I develop in-house if that's standard and taken into consideration with their compensation.)

Details: I am applying primarily to positions where I would be doing a lot of code development for large-volume data analysis/visualization/processing in a business environment, but would like to be able to continue developing electronic research/medical equipment (and the corresponding user interfaces) related to my doctoral research. These two things should be completely separable (while there are software components to both, they are quite separate fields), but I'm curious if anyone has suggestions on how to request that without harming leverage on traditional compensation.

Edit: \/ Thanks. \/

poeticoddity fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Mar 18, 2016

Guinness
Sep 15, 2004

poeticoddity posted:

I would like to solicit some unusual negotiation advice in advance of when I may need it.

How should one approach requests for modifications to the offered contract that fall outside of traditional compensation? Specifically, I'm hoping to have it explicitly stated (whenever I find a job) that I retain IP rights to anything developed outside of the company and that is not derivative or related work. (I am comfortable with a company keeping IP rights to anything I develop in-house if that's standard and taken into consideration with their compensation.)

Details: I am applying primarily to positions where I would be doing a lot of code development for large-volume data analysis/visualization/processing in a business environment, but would like to be able to continue developing electronic research/medical equipment (and the corresponding user interfaces) related to my doctoral research. These two things should be completely separable (while there are software components to both, they are quite separate fields), but I'm curious if anyone has suggestions on how to request that without harming leverage on traditional compensation.

This shouldn't be a hard thing to do, but some companies might be stubborn about it. Usually that language is just standard legalese; most companies won't go after you unless you really stole/copied from them.

That said, I would highly suggest hiring a lawyer to review your contract and assist in rewording those clauses. If you're doing "real" side work/research and not just little home experimentation it's better to CYA than hope for the best.

And then assuming you can reword the contract, be diligent about not using company resources (laptops, servers, etc.) to do your side work/research.

Uranium 235
Oct 12, 2004

Hey, who screwed up the notes/negotiating strategies in the spreadsheet? They don't seem to line up with the corresponding poster, so I skipped a row when I put my info in.

Kalenn Istarion
Nov 2, 2012

Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av
Goons_ruin_everything.xls

Dik Hz
Feb 22, 2004

Fun with Science

poeticoddity posted:

I would like to solicit some unusual negotiation advice in advance of when I may need it.

How should one approach requests for modifications to the offered contract that fall outside of traditional compensation? Specifically, I'm hoping to have it explicitly stated (whenever I find a job) that I retain IP rights to anything developed outside of the company and that is not derivative or related work. (I am comfortable with a company keeping IP rights to anything I develop in-house if that's standard and taken into consideration with their compensation.)

Details: I am applying primarily to positions where I would be doing a lot of code development for large-volume data analysis/visualization/processing in a business environment, but would like to be able to continue developing electronic research/medical equipment (and the corresponding user interfaces) related to my doctoral research. These two things should be completely separable (while there are software components to both, they are quite separate fields), but I'm curious if anyone has suggestions on how to request that without harming leverage on traditional compensation.

Edit: \/ Thanks. \/

Were you the guy who asked this same question a week ago in another thread? I can't remember. Anyway, I'll repeat my advice in case you're not. Keep a lab notebook/journal of your own projects and work. The company can't go after anything that's not work-related, and if you can show via your notebook that your ideas were invented on your own time, you will be golden. This is the primary reason for lab notebooks, even at large companies, btw.

Also, suing a former employee is the nuclear option. Imagine how bad it would be for morale at a company to go after anything that wasn't a slam-dunk win for the company.

kloa
Feb 14, 2007


Speaking of IP and such, does a company have grounds to go after you if you never signed any kind of waiver or something?

I've built multiple things here (as a DBA), and thus never signed any traditional agreement that I wouldn't build a competitor product in the future.

Curious minds want to know!

poeticoddity
Jan 14, 2007
"How nice - to feel nothing and still get full credit for being alive." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five

Dik Hz posted:

Were you the guy who asked this same question a week ago in another thread? I can't remember. Anyway, I'll repeat my advice in case you're not. Keep a lab notebook/journal of your own projects and work. The company can't go after anything that's not work-related, and if you can show via your notebook that your ideas were invented on your own time, you will be golden. This is the primary reason for lab notebooks, even at large companies, btw.

Also, suing a former employee is the nuclear option. Imagine how bad it would be for morale at a company to go after anything that wasn't a slam-dunk win for the company.

(I think that was someone else.) That's a good idea with the notebooks. I'd definitely be keeping all records separate from any work related computers or other materials, but I should probably keep a more formal notebook than the legal pad I've been using for the past year or so. Thanks.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

El Mero Mero posted:

What are people's opinion about just lying about your current salary (or inflating it) and then using that number to negotiate slightly up from?
I disagree with people saying it's unethical - companies won't hesitate to lie and say things like "we'll plan on giving you a salary bump/promotion at the 6 months mark" and other such things to sign people - it seems only fair that it goes both ways. Still, it carries risk and can damage your credibility if you're caught. I think you'd be strictly better off making up a pending offer from a third company(leave it unnamed) than your actual, falsifiable current salary. It's bizarre but not completely off the table for a company to ask for a paystub or even an offer letter (I'd never comply with such a request but I'm at a point in my career where I am genuinely happy to walk from a place that rubs me the wrong way.) Using a company giving you an offer has other advantages - if they play hardball, you can have good reasons to non-sheepishly take the offer anyway, like company-specific intangibles. That doesn't play so well when it's literally a place you're (ostensibly) happy to keep working at.

swenblack
Jan 14, 2004

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

I disagree with people saying it's unethical - companies won't hesitate to lie and say things like "we'll plan on giving you a salary bump/promotion at the 6 months mark" and other such things to sign people - it seems only fair that it goes both ways. Still, it carries risk and can damage your credibility if you're caught. I think you'd be strictly better off making up a pending offer from a third company(leave it unnamed) than your actual, falsifiable current salary. It's bizarre but not completely off the table for a company to ask for a paystub or even an offer letter (I'd never comply with such a request but I'm at a point in my career where I am genuinely happy to walk from a place that rubs me the wrong way.) Using a company giving you an offer has other advantages - if they play hardball, you can have good reasons to non-sheepishly take the offer anyway, like company-specific intangibles. That doesn't play so well when it's literally a place you're (ostensibly) happy to keep working at.
Setting the ethics aside, what would lying about having another offer accomplish that confidently asserting your target salary would not?

I can only speak for myself, but if a candidate pulled this on me and I decided to hire them, I'd make their offer conditional on providing the details of the competing offer.

Kalenn Istarion
Nov 2, 2012

Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av
Lying is bad advice and leaves you without a credible negotiating position. The goal is not to gently caress the company as hard as possible, the goal is to establish a fair value for your time and effort. Establishing a salary that is too high based on a false premise leaves you with a hurdle that could be too high to live up to.

The entire foundation of a successful, healthy, negotiating strategy is based on two parties dealing in good faith with each other. If you believe a company is actually lying when they say they will consider you for a raise in 6 months then why the gently caress are you dealing with them at all? If you believe they are offering 'consideration' in good faith but think the odds of actually getting a raise are low then just assign it a value of zero in your consideration of their package.

At the end of the day you want the company to be if not happy, comfortable they paid the right amount for you if you care even a little bit about job security. If you spend your career doing 2 or less year stints at companies trying to just lever for the maximum possible extraction of money you will get figured out and eventually it will get harder and harder to do unless you're a legit genius at whatever it is you do.

anne frank fanfic
Oct 31, 2005

swenblack posted:

I can only speak for myself, but if a candidate pulled this on me and I decided to hire them, I'd make their offer conditional on providing the details of the competing offer.

Haha

Cast_No_Shadow
Jun 8, 2010

The Republic of Luna Equestria is a huge, socially progressive nation, notable for its punitive income tax rates. Its compassionate, cynical population of 714m are ruled with an iron fist by the dictatorship government, which ensures that no-one outside the party gets too rich.

Thats just it though. If someone asked me to get a formal offer letter and show them I would laugh at the obvious joke to give them an out.

If you can't even trust me here over what is, to the company, less than a rounding error, whats it going to be like working for you. Thanks for your time, don't call me, I'll call you.

But heres the thing, I wouldn't really mention a competitor, you can meet my requirements or you can't/won't. Its binary and all about being in the poisition to make your stand and be confident about it which comes from having options and having experience.

The Capitulator
Oct 31, 2008

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

I disagree with people saying it's unethical - companies won't hesitate to lie and say things like "we'll plan on giving you a salary bump/promotion at the 6 months mark"

There is a fine line between a lie and a fleeting promise; a plan does not have to materialize, and so 'planning' to give you a raise and 'giving' you a raise are different things. As someone said, if you don't think this 'plan' will materialize, assign zero value and decide based on other factors.

swenblack
Jan 14, 2004

Cast_No_Shadow posted:

If you can't even trust me here over what is, to the company, less than a rounding error, whats it going to be like working for you. Thanks for your time, don't call me, I'll call you.
Congrats on being a millennial stereotype, I guess. Also, why should I trust someone I literally just met?

Bisty Q.
Jul 22, 2008

swenblack posted:

Congrats on being a millennial stereotype, I guess. Also, why should I trust someone I literally just met?

Why should they trust you? Demanding a copy of a competing offer letter is so far out of the professional norm that it makes you sound like a loon.

Pillowpants
Aug 5, 2006
Do NOT lie about your current salary.

I do 5 or 6 Verification of Employments a week in my role. The most basic ones list what the applicant listed and ask if it is correct, but the more detailed ones look for 3 years of salary history broken down by reg/OT/bonus. I've had to send a lot back because of lies.

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George H.W. Cunt
Oct 6, 2010





3 years of salary history? Why does that even matter one bit?

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