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I put some stuff in the corporate thread about this pertaining to the actual process, but I don't want to poo poo up the non-negotiation thread with negotiation stuff. I'm not really asking any questions here, just opening myself up to critique and gunfire to make sure I'm taking the right approach. Or maybe I will ask questions. I don't know. I'm flying blind into this post. Full story here. Short story: I emailed a company I had a previous relationship with (didn't work for them, I worked tech support in a consultancy that had them as a client) asking about opportunities in the space. In the 3 months since then we've discussed what the role could be and in a 45 minute call (not an interview, just a chat about what we both want) they asked what my salary expectations are. I'm completely fine with sharing numbers. I'm in Canada so all values are CAD. In the consultancy I started at $55k (in 2021 this seemed pretty good - and it was my first tech job). By the time I left I was at $62k. Current job hired me at $68k and union-mandated raises put me at just north of $73k (as of next week - $71 right now). When I had the chat with the IT director at the new prospect, I was not expecting any questions about salary and was completely unprepared for it - I wasn't even really sure we were talking about a job! I really thought he might just hook me up with somewhere else. So I said $76k - $83k. The director quite candidly told me that this was a lot lower than he was expecting to hear, gave me a short spiel about how the company pays people what they're worth etc etc. Some people in the corporate thread pointed out I can and probably should ask for more when it comes to the formal interview. SO what do we think? In a quick informal chat I seriously lowballed myself, and got gently chastised in corporate speak to the effect of "that's a bit low". Should a formal interview + ask come along, am I good to adjust that ask to something more reasonable? Probably like $85 - $90? I pretty much have the upper hand already because the work I did for them before was stellar (  ) and they've been left high and dry by my absence.If I CAN ask for more - how do you approach that? I said in the previous chat I'm okay with peanuts, and all of a sudden I'm asking for walnuts? Wtf I'm allergic to both of those anyway!
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Mar 26, 2024 22:16
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What is the job? At this point I'd let them name a number and just try to kick the can down the road. You clearly are at the disadvantage in market knowledge here so its best to let them name the number first.
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Mar 26, 2024 22:28
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Nobody Interesting posted:I put some stuff in the corporate thread about this pertaining to the actual process, but I don't want to poo poo up the non-negotiation thread with negotiation stuff. I'm not really asking any questions here, just opening myself up to critique and gunfire to make sure I'm taking the right approach. Or maybe I will ask questions. I don't know. I'm flying blind into this post. you dont know what youre worth. ask them what they want to pay. they already told you it'd be more than what you asked. dont say a number first.
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Mar 26, 2024 22:31
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Lockback posted:What is the job? At this point I'd let them name a number and just try to kick the can down the road. You clearly are at the disadvantage in market knowledge here so its best to let them name the number first. Extremely at a disadvantage. I don't know what title they're going for, but it's basically sysadmin-ish concerning a PHP/MySQL CRM, maintaining the LAMP stack that keeps it running, providing user-level support inhouse, probably doing some DBA-style stuff to get around the CRM's limitations. Maybe looking at other areas of the business. They also told me they might potentially maybe someday look at getting rid of the existing CRM and migrating elsewhere (which I can assist with because I know the existing CRM's database like the back of my hand) So I'm imagining the conversation being them asking me what I want - can you really just...throw it back? That's an okay thing to do?
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Mar 26, 2024 22:35
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You should ask them to make you an offer. It’s absolutely something you can do. You should do it moving forward in all interviews where salary comes out. You have less info, therefore they need to start the bargaining process. In my last negotiation I said “I’m sure you will provide me with a competitive offer. I have a good idea of the market but want to evaluate your offer in its entirety with benefits, vacation, pension etc.”
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Mar 26, 2024 22:43
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Nobody Interesting posted:Extremely at a disadvantage. I'd guess 100k is more or less the market, but obviously a ton of things could notch it up considerably or down slightly. A floor of like 90-95k is probably pretty solid, I cannot imagine a job like that would go below that.
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Mar 26, 2024 23:53
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Yeah that does sound right - with any luck I'll have the balls to ask for something like that.
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Mar 27, 2024 00:02
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Nobody Interesting posted:Yeah that does sound right - with any luck I'll have the balls to ask for something like that. Do it. I had the exact same thing happen to me where I threw out a number that was like 50% than my last job and she was like “oh honey, we can get you more than that” and they did. Ask for like 110 and they’ll probably counter with something that’s good for both sides
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Mar 27, 2024 00:32
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Why would you ask for something (a second time)? Wait for them to make an offer.
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Mar 27, 2024 00:34
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Jordan7hm posted:Why would you ask for something (a second time)? Wait for them to make an offer. Oh yeah this is the right answer, forgot about that. Listen to this goon
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Mar 27, 2024 01:07
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So if we're waiting for them to make an offer - the thing is I lowballed myself in that informal chat. Wouldn't it make sense for them to make an offer in that lowball range? Sure he gave me the buddy buddy we pay what you're worth thing, but numbers are numbers, right?
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Mar 27, 2024 01:10
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Some companies have pretty established pay bands, so if an e.g. Sys Admin II is 100-120k they aren't going to bring in someone at that title and then pay them way below band at 80k or whatever. Not all companies and managers are morons out to screw you, and realize fair and benchmarked compensation is good for everyone. Not to say they'll automatically pay you top of band without some negotiating, however.
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Mar 27, 2024 01:17
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Nobody Interesting posted:So if we're waiting for them to make an offer - the thing is I lowballed myself in that informal chat. Wouldn't it make sense for them to make an offer in that lowball range? Sure he gave me the buddy buddy we pay what you're worth thing, but numbers are numbers, right? That dude was subtly telling you to not ask for anything, just let them make an offer. They will offer the lower end of their range. You can then ask them to go up (they will say no probably). The lower end of their range may be 15k more than what you’re about to ask for. You don’t know until they offer it. You need to do a lot more work to figure out the market for this position if you are going to throw any kind of number out.
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Mar 27, 2024 01:20
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Nobody Interesting posted:So if we're waiting for them to make an offer - the thing is I lowballed myself in that informal chat. Wouldn't it make sense for them to make an offer in that lowball range? Sure he gave me the buddy buddy we pay what you're worth thing, but numbers are numbers, right? Its much easier to pay someone equitably at hire vs try to do an adjustment down the road to keep them around. It's not like the Manager gets leftover money when he signs someone for cheap. They'll likely give you an offer on the low end of the actual range, which is maybe what would have happened anyway, but that's why when you're at a disadvantage with market numbers to try and get them to name a number first. They will likely still offer within the normal range if you get an offer though, so don't have a panic attack about it. If you have a good handle on the market you can anchor high, but that ship has sailed.
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Mar 27, 2024 01:51
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I just got out of an interview loop debrief call where I was told that I passed and would be matched with a team with a large company that you've heard of. I felt I was finally cornered into naming a number first, so I just looked them up on levels.fyi and told them I'd be looking for C$150k, which was the average for that level at that company. This would be a massive raise for me compared to my current level, but I think I left money on the table. I should have asked for a bit more than the average, and been happy to come down to the average. I also told them this was only a starting point for discussion, and that salary is but one part of total rewards (barf I hate this term). I don't think the mistake was fatal and there probably is still room for another $10k or so but I probably anchored myself a bit low, but it would still be a win overall if I do sign with this company. In hindsight, I think my performance on the call could have been better if I had prepared a scripted answer, knowing that I would finally be cornered into talking about TC. I was a bit fooled by the recruiter being cagey about the topic of the call so I didn't know if it was going to be a good news call or a rejection call.
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Mar 27, 2024 15:47
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this is a negotiation thread question but given that it's a huge raise: are you happy with 150k? it sounds like you are. knowing when you've won is important. you have learned a lesson for next time when you do your market research.
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Mar 27, 2024 15:59
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That's why it's important to get practice saying "no" or "send me the offer and I'll evaluate it as a whole" before it matters. It's not as easy as it sounds, especially with emotions running high. You'll still likely get a big ol' raise and that's a win so don't fret too much! Sounds like you left enough wiggle room to work with. After they give you the full rundown on benefits you may be able to state your new target after evaluating the whole package. You probably won't be able to get to $200k doing that but you can definitely work out a bump without egg on your face.
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Mar 27, 2024 16:00
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any company worth their salt will just be like no dude 150k take it or leave it and you're gonna take it so i am not sure it's worth the rigamarole other than if you want free negotiation practice and rejection practice, which is useful i guess
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Mar 27, 2024 16:03
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You'll likely have more wiggle room with other benefits but play it all out and see. Also internalize: KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:this is a negotiation thread question but given that it's a huge raise: are you happy with 150k? it sounds like you are. knowing when you've won is important. you have learned a lesson for next time when you do your market research. focus more on how this is going to make your life better and less on the game theory. If you get 150, would you have been happier if they offered 140 and you negotiated to 150? A win is a win.
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Mar 27, 2024 16:10
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Lockback posted:focus more on how this is going to make your life better and less on the game theory. If you get 150, would you have been happier if they offered 140 and you negotiated to 150? Yes. That's super basic human psychology--it feels more like I Won that way. I know you know that obviously, just piling on by way of pointing out to the OP that your endocrine system can get in your way in cases like these. Focus on what you're getting, not on ~winning.~ And if the other party wants to win, by all means contrive to make them feel like they won.... while maximizing the actual dollars you get out of them.
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Mar 27, 2024 16:19
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The role I was pretty deep on ended up being a flop, which is sad but not unexpected in the current market. That being said, while I’m here, how do I best understand what to expect or ask for in terms of equity with start ups? I really only know the bare minimum (you know: equity becomes cash someday, in theory). When a start up offers X equity amount, I have no way to tell what my reaction should be, especially if it comes at the cost of reasonable salary. This might be a big or nonsense question, so I can clarify if needed.
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Mar 27, 2024 17:04
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No, it's actually a very easy question. Treat them as lottery tickets and mostly worth nothing whatsoever. Don't sacrifice salary for them ever.
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Mar 27, 2024 20:27
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silvergoose posted:No, it's actually a very easy question. Treat them as lottery tickets and mostly worth nothing whatsoever. Don't sacrifice salary for them ever. I think they're asking what should you expect. I disagree that you should consider them worthless, they don't replace salary and they shouldn't be "counted on" but they should be looked at as part of the equation and shouldn't be looked at like a throwaway. In my experience there's usually a pretty set policy on what gets offered for what level, at least until you get to the top levels. I think the same applies here if you are behind the 8-ball: Let them make the first offer.
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Mar 27, 2024 20:37
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My wife is easing back into the workforce after being out of it as a full-time mom for 6 years. Through her sister-in-law, she landed a part-time, remote project manager role at a small town design firm. She'll be an independent contractor. I don't have any market knowledge for the area, but to me, pay is secondary to the experience she'll be gaining to add back into her resume for the job after this. Would standard negotiation tactics still apply here? (i.e. get the owner to name an hourly rate first and go from there.)
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Mar 28, 2024 01:11
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based on the % of startups that ever actually amount to anything nah i do consider equity basically worthless.
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Mar 28, 2024 09:18
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silvergoose posted:No, it's actually a very easy question. Treat them as lottery tickets and mostly worth nothing whatsoever. Don't sacrifice salary for them ever. Lockback posted:I think they're asking what should you expect. I disagree that you should consider them worthless, they don't replace salary and they shouldn't be "counted on" but they should be looked at as part of the equation and shouldn't be looked at like a throwaway. Edit: Also marumaru posted:based on the % of startups that ever actually amount to anything nah i do consider equity basically worthless. Both (Edit: All three of) of these perspectives help me, honestly—thanks! I think I lost some face with my last company when I asked them about CoL pay for everyone as opposed to die hard belief in the future of the product by accepting more equity. I imagine most companies do offer roughly the same package for employees barring the upper echelon. I’ll keep dropping apps with start ups, since I have experience in that environment. Final edit: As it stands, I value income above equity by default, because I gotta pay the bills now and save for situations like this one where I’m laid off and stuck. I’ll just keep it in mind that it’s more a weird gamble bonus and not to be accounted for in salary calculations. broken pixel fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 09:20
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Even if you do manage to be in a company that exits / IPOs, your options can still be worth very little! I went from looking at an entire house the first day of the IPO, to a nice down payment a few days later, to barely a car by the time I was laid off 7 months later. I was fortunate the options weren’t underwater like they had been at times during the six month lockup. That was 4 years of options/RSUs, so annualized it was about $7k pre tax a year. Not nothing, but not the rocket ship either. I would have made more on one of the secondary sales - the private valuation did not survive contact with the public.
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Mar 28, 2024 12:31
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Nybble posted:Even if you do manage to be in a company that exits / IPOs, your options can still be worth very little! I went from looking at an entire house the first day of the IPO, to a nice down payment a few days later, to barely a car by the time I was laid off 7 months later. I was fortunate the options weren’t underwater like they had been at times during the six month lockup. And remember, that's one of the rare startups that actually reached IPO. The value of RSUs/options/etc. is $0. Think of them more as the markup a startup has to pay in addition to a strong market salary if they want to employ you, to offset the extra risk you're taking by going to work for a company that will probably run out of money and dissolve within a couple years. Really though unless they really make it rain, don't work for a startup. You'll most likely be uninterruptedly deathmarched until they run out of money and stop paying you. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 14:38
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And remember, even if the company does well and shares will survive contact with the public market, the owners and investors still have other ways of clawing back your equity such as share dilution prior to ipo.
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Mar 28, 2024 15:24
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While I agree that you should value startup equity at zero because this unlikely to be worth anything the logical conclusion is to not work at startups because they will value the equity and the total compensation will be significantly less than at a public company that gives equity.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:41
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asur posted:While I agree that you should value startup equity at zero because this unlikely to be worth anything the logical conclusion is to not work at startups because they will value the equity and the total compensation will be significantly less than at a public company that gives equity. wow he figured it out
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Mar 28, 2024 16:46
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They can also present an opportunity to jump roles or levels that a large public company won't. That worked out for me, but it was a gamble for sure.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:48
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i personally have found that working in small companies is usually a bad move period. being a bigger % of the workforce means that you have a much bigger impact on the company's output, which means that any variation on your personal output will raise a lot of questions and drive higher ups into a panic much more easily. working for larger companies where you're just a small cog means you can usually take it easy and have slower days without panicking about whether you're going to get fired immediately or not. are just salt in the wound. but i digress, that's not very comp related now.
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Mar 28, 2024 17:43
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Working for a small company run by someone who knows what they're doing is wonderful. Working for a small company run by someone who does not know what they're doing is hell. Far worse than typical megacorporate dysfunction, because, as you point out, a lot more of the owner's idiocy lands on your personal lap. The big obvious drawback of working at small companies in general is lack of room for advancement, since the high positions are usually permanently held by the owner's family or friends. Also if the owner has a kid in college and you hold the highest ranking role for any non-family in the company, you should be preemptively job hunting. But really those aren't as big a deal as you might think, relative to Bigcorp: you advance in the Bigcorp world mostly by jumping to another company, same as you will for small companies, and it's not like nepotism and favoritism in hiring/promoting is unheard of in Bigcorpland. I've spent most of my career with small companies and I love it. I've been lucky/smart enough to cut bait quickly the couple of times I've found myself at a small company run by an idiot, though. e: This entire post is about established small companies. Startups are a whole different thing. You should not work for a startup if it can be avoided. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 17:51
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Working for a startup is fine if you are an owner. That’s it.
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Mar 28, 2024 18:27
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Start ups can be a sort of good option if you're low on experience and trying to break into an industry. The problem is that most everyone else at start ups is probably in a similar boat and has way too much responsibility for their ability level, so the whole place is a flaming poo poo show. Imagine the worst family business you know and then involve VC money and pressures. It does mean in some cases there can be an opportunity, but tread carefully and don't get sucked in. I know a bunch of people that used the low bar of start ups as stepping stones into "real" companies. Every single one of the start ups was (and notice how I said was) a disaster of a company, and even the couple of them that had exit events did not make any meaningful return on equity for the lowly employees. Of all the cases, the best outcome was an acqui-hire deal. Now with some 15ish years of career experience I wouldn't touch 99.99% of start ups, unless it were my own thing.
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Mar 28, 2024 19:04
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I am currently working for a startup because I wanted experience at a high-leverage role in a tire fire, and they're giving me enough cash to make the cash + experience worthwhile. This isn't a thing most people want, or should want.
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Mar 28, 2024 19:19
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I mean, poo poo, the reality is I wanted to bail at 3 years on the previous company, but the structure of the startup shifted too much to accommodate things like “design.” I’d much rather end up in the middle of a large corporate mass in the long run, but now I’m stuck at 2 years experience, just under expectations for most large company roles. Not like that’s stopped me from applying to 3+ years experience jobs, but still. Sorry about derailing the negotiations thread, oops
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Mar 28, 2024 19:34
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broken pixel posted:Sorry about derailing the negotiations thread, oops It's not a derail, knowing the value of where your going is important in a negotiation. One of the most important things people need to break out of is thinking of a job as something that is given, like a gift. It's a transaction and you need to be aware of what is being offered.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:25
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Everyone should work at a startup at least once for the exposure in much the same way and for the same purpose that the army exposes each recruit to tear gas. Also not all startups suck,, just the vast majority.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:43
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