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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:4 10s is still a much better schedule than 5 8s
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Apr 12, 2024 15:19
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Jordan7hm posted:Conversely, I wouldn’t take 30k less for a day less a week. I don't think I'd take 30k less for a day less a week at that salary level, anyway. Earlier in my career I would not have done so. At this point in my career with a baby I'd probably take a roughly 20% haircut in total comp to get a day a week home with him, but that's because we're financially comfortable and have that breathing room.
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Apr 12, 2024 15:34
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Anonymous Robot posted:If you can get a four day work week I don’t know that I would give that up for any amount of money once I’d cleared $100k. depends on the place. i know at least one thats very vocal about 4 days in recruiting mats, but is closer to 996 in practice
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Apr 12, 2024 16:04
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Mantle posted:So I got the written offer and big surprise, it was just over $150k which is slightly below the mid for the role according to levels.fyi. Sharing my experience, I was looking down the barrel of this exact scenario 2 years ago, with 2 offers in hand for $150k. Job market was much hotter in general then but I asked both for $165k (and panic attacked my way through the whole process). Both came up a little bit ($155k) with signing bonuses tacked on with little fuss or muss. $170k isn't too high an ask, you won't get laughed out of the room. Not like when Amazon lowballed me and I asked for 275% of their offer. I would respond-all but that's just me.
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Apr 12, 2024 16:33
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Jordan7hm posted:Conversely, I wouldn’t take 30k less for a day less a week. I would, as long as it's still enough not to put me in financial distress.
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Apr 12, 2024 16:42
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Not a Children posted:Sharing my experience, I was looking down the barrel of this exact scenario 2 years ago, with 2 offers in hand for $150k. Job market was much hotter in general then but I asked both for $165k (and panic attacked my way through the whole process). I ended up responding only to the recruiter with $172k and they didn't withdraw the offer, but just asked for details of the competing offer. I think the scary part is over! I decided to reveal the details of the other offer being $164k prorated to 4dww because it gives them a number to anchor to. I would be satisfied if they were to match proportionally, even discounting the value of 4dww to zero.
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Apr 12, 2024 16:49
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The better answer to that question is "No."
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Apr 12, 2024 17:08
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Eric the Mauve posted:The better answer to that question is "No." In general, but Mantle is on a back foot because they already met the number he first tossed out. I think sharing the pro-rated number here was probably a good move because "I want 150" "Ok, 150" "No, I want 170 because of an offer" "What's the offer?" "I am not telling" Probably isn't going to be very effective, Anchoring high only works when you anchor high, not middle.
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Apr 12, 2024 17:26
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I missed that part and that is very true.
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Apr 12, 2024 17:28
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:4 10s is still a much better schedule than 5 8s In my experience it turns into 4 10s plus a 4 or maybe more. If they whole office does it and is basically shut down on that off day though it is probably better. 4-10s in an office environment I have found is basically the same productivity as 4-8s. For me personally I know when I get past hour 9 I am basically getting so little done unless I take like an hour break.
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Apr 12, 2024 18:11
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Eric the Mauve posted:I missed that part and that is very true. absolutely agree in most negotiation situations when asked for "proof" that "No" is a complete and adequate answer but Mantle is likely gonna get a courtesy bump at best due to their original anchor, so in this specific case I think it makes sense to play open as much as possible including your valuation of a four day week
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Apr 12, 2024 18:24
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spwrozek posted:.or me personally I know when I get past hour 2.5 I am basically getting so little done unless I take like a 6 hour break.
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Apr 13, 2024 00:04
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Lmao. I was looking at that like... What got autocorrected.
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Apr 13, 2024 05:01
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I take my break at the start of the day.
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Apr 13, 2024 08:49
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:4 10s is still a much better schedule than 5 8s I could totally do this with my flexitime, but I don't see the appeal, really.
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Apr 13, 2024 14:11
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I keep taking time off, but my flex hours keep racking up 
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Apr 13, 2024 15:12
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The Negotiation Thread: weird flex but ok
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Apr 13, 2024 15:38
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I should maybe try doing this for a while, but I don't wanna work 10 hours on friday. I do think the optimal 4dww is split by wednesday.
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Apr 13, 2024 22:38
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My personal optimal 40 hour week would be 16 hours Monday, 16 hours Tuesday, 8 hours Wednesday
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Apr 13, 2024 23:11
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TBH the four-day, eight-hour workweek would be good.
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Apr 14, 2024 00:41
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Twho hours per day? Sold.
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Apr 14, 2024 01:46
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E: this is not the corporate thread. Sundae fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 06:38
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One weird trick HR hates! You can set Goatse as an out of office message.
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Apr 14, 2024 09:55
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Mantle posted:I ended up responding only to the recruiter with $172k and they didn't withdraw the offer, but just asked for details of the competing offer. I think the scary part is over! To close the loop on this, I just signed the counteroffer at $171k TC. There was actually an extra $5k in annual "lifestyle health spending" that I didn't account for that pushed up the TC to $171k. All in all, having the strong BATNA and presenting as confident in my ask gave me another $14k TC after one round of negotiation. In the end, I don't think anchoring low initially hurt me because I luckily had a competing offer. I think it hasn't sunk in how life-changing this is going to be for me, but this is a 70% increase from what I'm currently making. I think after I have a bit of time to digest, I will write a short case study for goons about the negotiation process, what I think went well and what I could have done better. Thanks goons!
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Apr 15, 2024 22:20
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Big congrats! And a good lesson in there in both not giving up and taking multiple angles.
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Apr 15, 2024 22:47
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gently caress yes, dangle that ladder behind you! 
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Apr 16, 2024 03:28
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Hey All, just looking for some general thoughts on a niche career. For the last 10 years, I've worked with a specialty construction company for Museums. I work in the Audio-Visual portion, and that means my day-to-day skillset encompasses typical AV, lighting, control systems, interfacing with mechanicals, and arduino programming. A year ago, I received an offer to interview with a company adjacent to my industry, but I didn't really like the location or the pitch... but it got me thinking. So, I told my boss, hey, I'd like to move up or move out, I'll stay till this particular Children's Museum is complete, but after that no promises. Well, that time is nearing, and there's been no discussion of moving up. Honestly, even if they did, I don't know that I want it. I don't like upper management at my company, and I feel pretty disrespected over this not being taken seriously. Things have been more chaotic and messy than ever, I'm working too much overtime. My wife and I want to move closer to home, so I'm seeking out some options. One was a cold-email - a company a little smaller than where I am, but well-established. They weren't actively hiring for a role like mine... but they pretty quickly emailed me back. From the interview, they see me as an opportunity they could take on for growth. The culture seems much healthier, and the work seems fun. They don't really have a formal department for the type of work I do, just a handful of people that do it when needed. This could be an opportunity to build something with them and become the more managerial role I seek, long term. I've received an offer, but it's less than I'd like. I currently run at about $32/Hr. Last year my income was around $76000. This job, in Chicago, is offering me $35/hr. According to calculators, I'm seeing Chicago is about 8% higher cost to live in vs Nashville, where I currently am, and this is about a 9% raise. However, I also need to worry about State taxes now (TN doesn't do income tax, only sales tax). This place tries to do less overtime.... which is good, and part of what I'm seeking, but I really don't want to risk a dip in pay when moving. The big problem cost is housing. I've asked some followup questions about how often overtime is seen, some details about travel rates (they pay more during travel, but I can't tell if that's in addition to per diem or without it) etc. Even if I work half the overtime I did last year (only 130 hours instead of 260), I end up pretty close to where I am now, maybe more-ish. This is tough, because I have a fairly wide skillset, with big depth on talents that are rare to have as much experience as I do... but also, the line of work they are good for is extremely rare. I only have maybe a dozen places in the entire US that are in the exact field I want...and only 3 of them are anywhere near IL. I've also of course asked about some more details, but I'd like to get some advice here on how to negotiate further. Maybe what I'm writing here is to vague or too scatterbrained, but what say you?
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Apr 16, 2024 05:33
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Tell 'em you need $45 an hour and let them argue you down to $40.
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Apr 16, 2024 11:19
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Is it better to negotiate in terms of a statement or a question? Like, "I want $X" vs "Can you go up to $X?" Nissin Cup Nudist fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 21:07
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"I can sign today for $x"
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Apr 17, 2024 21:25
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It is always better to say what you want than to ask for what you want.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:33
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Say what you want and what that will give the other party. "I will sign an offer today for $X" is great because it gives the counterparty what they want in two ways. Specifically, they want you, since they are making an offer. Generally, they also want to stop trying to fill the position because hiring is a huge pain in the rear end and a drag on productive effort, so you're taking away a pain point from them. You are delivering two wins for them with your signature. In return, you are clearly stating what you need to give them those two wins.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:41
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When you're at the negotiation of offer stage, both parties are actually aligned. They actually want to come to a deal with you, and you (supposedly, but not always) want to come to a deal with them. The way to get to yes is to make it EASY for the other side to give you what they want. If you think about their processes, the easiest thing for them is to say to their budget approver "Everything is settled except for number $x. If we give them $x, they will sign and this will be done." So you want to communicate clearly to the HR contact exactly what they should tell the approver to make you sign. The wrong way to do it would be where you internally have all of these considerations like oh I want 4 weeks vacay instead of 3, or maybe you could give me a signing bonus if you can't increase salary, or my other offer is 4dww so I dunno how to compare blah blah You need to abstract all of that poo poo into YOUR number that you value it at and then just communicate that number. Hide all of the reasoning, the HR doesn't care, they just want to know number. e: Of course, if things like 4 weeks vacation are really important to you, then by all means include those in your ask, but know that it does make the HR's job harder than "know number". Mantle fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 22:07
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My concern, as pointed out to me on the previous page, is I'm negotiating off a federal contract and there's typically not a lot of wiggle room on those things.
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Apr 17, 2024 22:32
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:My concern, as pointed out to me on the previous page, is I'm negotiating off a federal contract and there's typically not a lot of wiggle room on those things. You said the range is X-Y and they offered you Z, where X < Z < Y. You know there is wiggle room up to Y. I think this is less about the money and more about you knowing your BATNA. If Z exceeds your BATNA, it means you've already won. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get more gravy. At a minimum, ask for Y and see what they say. If you don't know whether Z exceeds your BATNA, then figuring that out is an exercise you need to do before taking any action.
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Apr 17, 2024 22:37
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It may just mean the counter is less likely to be accepted (or fully met, anyway), but in that case, assuming the most basic of professionalism, they’d just say no, you agree on whatever, and sign (assumptions in there, but still).
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Apr 17, 2024 23:22
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If we don’t want to meet someone’s ask, the response is “sorry, our original offer stands - do you want to accept or not” or maybe we’ll do a “ok we can give you [something short of the ask], do you accept?” At no point would we say “we can’t do that so our original offer is null and void” that’s just silly.
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Apr 18, 2024 01:15
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I'm in a wild situation right now where I provisionally accepted a job offer based on an email list of salary, perks, etc, based on me going "so my gross is £X, right?" and them agreeing that it was. I've gotten the offer letter/contract and not only are there no details of what some of the bonus/allowance numbers are in there, but there are also a pile of IP rights and "no other work at all" clauses in the contract which weren't mentioned during negotiation. Plus they're being weirdly evasive over what their health insurance even covers, which is silly because I'm in the UK and all I want to know is will I ever use the insurance at all, because it's taxable income here and i don't feel like losing 50 of the cost of it for no gain. I guess I'm going to have to go "having reviewed your full offer package I need £X + Y to sign" or something if they won't ditch the lovely clauses and just tell me what they're actually offering. This is baffling.
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Apr 18, 2024 01:24
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I've been recruiting internally for an 18-month parental leave contract in my team and offered the role to an outstanding junior candidate who was on a 4-month contract elsewhere in the organisation. At the same time she was also offered a similar length contract role in another team alongside mine, so used that leverage with me to get to the top of the salary band. Then she went to her manager with offer in hand to resign, and her manager counter-offered her permanency and the same top-of-band salary to stay in that role. Permanency won out, so she's staying put. Proud of her for getting what she needed but drat I am devastated at a) losing her and b) having to go through recruitment hell again.
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Apr 18, 2024 02:18
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Arquinsiel posted:I guess I'm going to have to go "having reviewed your full offer package I need £X + Y to sign" or something if they won't ditch the lovely clauses and just tell me what they're actually offering. This is baffling. Could you phrase it in a way that says 'I also need an annual bonus to cover the tax implications of your health plan'. Not necesarily to get them to agree, but to get them to be more forthcoming with their plan details?
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Apr 18, 2024 03:19
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