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canyoneer posted:My thread contribution: For anyone interested in negotiations in general, I recommend a book that I used in a course about negotiations. Bargaining for Advantage by Richard Shell This is a good post and should be quoted or linked in the Op, I think. If people look back at the history in this thread (and the previous one) they will see that the more experienced negotiators' strategies align generally with a transactional approach. There are definitely cases where other approaches are appropriate but in general most companies with anything north of 10 or so employees will view most new employee hires as a transactional relationship. You are providing a specific package of value and while you are important to you the company sees you only as the best among a number of options. Executive or other very senior jobs, where you will have a significant impact on the entity you are joining, tend towards the balanced concerns approach due to better information and power symmetry. People will tend to get poor results in many cases with assuming a relationship attitude because someone taking that approach and being generous can be taken advantage of very easily by someone assuming a transactional approach. The thing that is common in all these approaches is that the greater the information you have, the better off you will be, as you will be better able to structure your proposal to gain value in things that are important to you while giving value in things that you know are important to your counterparty. This is why the first thing we say to almost everyone is 'go look at what other similar jobs are paying' and the second thing we usually say is that 'unless you have very good intel, let them open and see where it lands relative to your independently developed expectations'. You gain information by seeing their offer, and they have not gained information unless you convey it to them through your reaction.
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Apr 30, 2016 07:25
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Kalenn Istarion posted:This is a good post and should be quoted or linked in the Op, I think. I completely agree with the rest of your assessment though, particularly that new hires should consider a transactional approach.
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Apr 30, 2016 12:27
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swenblack posted:I'm a bigger fan of this one: https://hms.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/assets/Sites/Ombuds/files/NegotiationConflictStyles.pdf. It draws a distinction between compromise and collaboration, with the latter being more desirable but harder to effect. Yeah I meant the dude's post that I was quoting, not necessarily the external source
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Apr 30, 2016 18:02
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So I followed the advice in the thread and the perspective employer sent me an offer, the offer is the same rate that I make now but I would get extra for shift differential and OT so I'd be making more money regardless, is asking for 10% more base outrageous?
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May 4, 2016 03:49
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Ezekiel_980 posted:So I followed the advice in the thread and the perspective employer sent me an offer, the offer is the same rate that I make now but I would get extra for shift differential and OT so I'd be making more money regardless, is asking for 10% more base outrageous? No, it's not outrageous. The worst likely outcome is they say "No", and you're where you'd be if you hadn't asked. The worst, unlikely outcome is they pull their offer entirely, and then you are dodging a bullet, because if they pull offers they're also likely broken in other ways that make them intolerable to work with.
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May 4, 2016 14:14
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I don't know what "extra for shift differential" means, how much money is that exactly? I don't know how to quantify the value of actually getting OT vs not getting OT, but it's not worth much unless you actually work a ton of OT right? OT is tricky, it seems like even if you get a ton of pay from that there is absolutely no guarantee you'll get it next month so I wouldn't put much value in that at all, personally.
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May 4, 2016 14:45
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It depends, but usually there is a premium paid for working 3rd shift or Sat-Wed shifts or similar.
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May 4, 2016 14:58
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Pryor on Fire posted:I don't know what "extra for shift differential" means, how much money is that exactly? I don't know how to quantify the value of actually getting OT vs not getting OT, but it's not worth much unless you actually work a ton of OT right? The differential is a flat rate so for 8 hours I get an extra $200 for every Saturday I work. I would be working Tuesday to Saturday. *edit* Offer is for $27 and hour I'm thinking of asking $31 Shrieking Muppet fucked around with this message at 15:06 on May 4, 2016 |
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May 4, 2016 15:04
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Ezekiel_980 posted:The differential is a flat rate so for 8 hours I get an extra $200 for every Saturday I work. I would be working Tuesday to Saturday. Without knowing the job you are applying for we can't say specifically whether those amounts are reasonable for that job. What we can say (and Dwight did say) is that asking for 10% isn't at all crazy. Note going to 31 from 27 is more than 10%, it's closer to 15%, but still not crazy. Do you have a basis for the $31 aside from 'I want to make more'? Also, based on a 40 hr work week that $200 differential works out to $5/hr on average putting you to $32/hr avg comp, but there's no guarantee you'd keep that shift over time so it's not the same as a base pay bump. Any incremental O/T is gravy for working harder and shouldn't really factor into your decision much.
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May 4, 2016 21:25
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:The worst, unlikely outcome is they pull their offer entirely, and then you are dodging a bullet, because if they pull offers they're also likely broken in other ways that make them intolerable to work with. I have also learned that when someone shows you who they are, believe them.
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May 6, 2016 00:14
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Sunny Side Up fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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May 8, 2016 04:38
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Sunny Side Up fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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May 8, 2016 04:39
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A few things: A lot of jobs I apply to are online form submissions that have a required field for prior/current salary. I presume if I put zero there it gets rejected. As such I inflate it for total compensation in my mind, because I worked really low hours so basically figure the lowish pay was worth more since anywhere else would have higher hours. Is putting in $1 like others recommended not going to get it punted when a human sees it? Alternatively, a lot of job postings say to email with a salary requirement. Again, I start pretty high on this and say " plus benefits ". Is there a better way to phrase things? In the one interview I had lately I was asked point blank the salary I was seeking, so I said it and essentially got laughed at for it being too high, they didn't even counter. I suppose I could just repeatedly dodge the question but it seems silly to try that- it's two parties going " you first " "no you" And anecdotally, my wife gave the salary range answer when interviewing for the job she has, and they gave her the top of the range. Makes no sense. mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 06:39 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 06:29
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mastershakeman posted:A few things: mastershakeman posted:Alternatively, a lot of job postings say to email with a salary requirement. Again, I start pretty high on this and say " plus benefits ". Is there a better way to phrase things? mastershakeman posted:And anecdotally, my wife gave the salary range answer when interviewing for the job she has, and they gave her the top of the range. Makes no sense.
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May 8, 2016 14:00
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Dik Hz posted:Your wife should have asked for more! True life. This may feel like a win, but in all likelihood this means that she low-balled herself and the top of her range is still probably less than, or at the bottom of, the range the company was expecting to hit.
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May 8, 2016 14:23
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Thanks, I'll give that phrase and others a shot. Unfortunately, the longer I go unemployed the more I'm willing to work anywhere, including places that would reject me for the $1 thing.
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May 8, 2016 14:56
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Tots posted:True life. This may feel like a win, but in all likelihood this means that she low-balled herself and the top of her range is still probably less than, or at the bottom of, the range the company was expecting to hit. Precisely. If you get the top of your range, that number was lower than the lowest internal budget number the company expected to use.
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May 9, 2016 13:25
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I applied to a few internal jobs last month, and I currently have third interviews for two of those jobs scheduled for later this week. My boss is concerned that I may actually leave his team for a new position and has offered me around a 10% bump in salary to stay. Here is my question though: The jobs I am interviewing for are in a new city, and here in Boston the cost of living is 30% more than what it would cost to live in the new city. Even if I am not offered any more money for either of the new jobs, I would effectively be getting a 30% raise just due to paying less for everything. Is there a way to negotiate a salary bump for my current job that matches what I would receive in the new city plus a 30% premium for the higher cost of living here? It sounds like a huge increase, but it would actually just put me on an equal footing with what I could afford in the new location if I accept a new job.
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May 10, 2016 12:02
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Deadite posted:I applied to a few internal jobs last month, and I currently have third interviews for two of those jobs scheduled for later this week. My boss is concerned that I may actually leave his team for a new position and has offered me around a 10% bump in salary to stay. Really all you can do is bring that information to your team lead and be ready to walk away from your current position if they can't meet it. Keep in mind, unless you're being pretty badly underpaid, they probably won't be able to do anything for you for budget reasons.
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May 10, 2016 13:10
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If you are willing to take the other offer than you can ask for a 30% raise to stay. I wouldn't mention cost of living as the company doesn't care.
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May 10, 2016 14:48
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Companies need to pay appropriately for the cost of living where they are located, this is why even entry level work in San Francisco is often over $100K. While you're correct that it's not strictly their problem it's totally reasonable to ask for a 30% raise if that's how much more it costs to live there. Note that many companies (especially old fashioned companies) don't do this and just have some arbitrary definition of what seems "fair" or not, and will simply refuse to pay a secretary $100K regardless of location. You don't want to work for those people.
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May 10, 2016 14:56
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Deadite posted:I applied to a few internal jobs last month, and I currently have third interviews for two of those jobs scheduled for later this week. My boss is concerned that I may actually leave his team for a new position and has offered me around a 10% bump in salary to stay. This is an interesting question because it gets into one of the underdiscussed costs of working for a big company. When you take your ball and go home to change employers, your previous manager, coworkers, et al basically become irrelevant to your new work. It's still a good idea to not burn bridges and to leave gracefully, because these people can be good contacts later on down the road. But you can be strident and demanding in negotiations with really no effect other than leaving the impression that you're more competent than people who don't negotiate. If you're moving to a different internal job, and you negotiate aggressively then your old manager may still have some influence on your day to day work, can poison the well both to HR and your new manager, and otherwise still exert a non-zero amount of influence. Boston's 30% higher COLA doesn't exactly translate into needing a 30% raise to match a lateral move at a cheaper area of the country, because of the decreasing marginal utility of income. As a trivial example, ordering crap off Amazon will have the same(ish) costs in both locations. In your shoes I'd look at two questions: - Do you like working with your boss well enough that it's an appealing "devil you know"? - What is the proportion of your income that is dedicated to cost of living? That % times 30% reduction is your actual increase in compensatory value by changing locations. E.g. if you spend 30% of your income on rent/fuel/food/etc and the new location has a 30% lower cost of living, then moving saves you 10%, not 30%. In that case, the 10% raise breaks even with the move. Figure out realistically what your actual breakeven point is, then decide accordingly.
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May 10, 2016 15:27
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Pryor on Fire posted:Companies need to pay appropriately for the cost of living where they are located, this is why even entry level work in San Francisco is often over $100K. While you're correct that it's not strictly their problem it's totally reasonable to ask for a 30% raise if that's how much more it costs to live there. No, they don't. Companies in high cost of living areas do generally pay more, but the driver behind that is competition to acquire and retain talent. People want to living in high CoL areas and thus a company may not need to cover the full difference. If you have access to your companies pay bands at different locations, you could check for yourself, but I can almost guarantee that the difference is less than the cost of living difference. One other factor as Dwight pointer out, is that CoL has less of an impact as your income grows as well. I don't see any issue asking for a large raise to stay if you're willing to leave and have an offer in hand with the normal caveats. The one thing that isn't entirely clear is if the large raise would put him above the expected salary in Boston, if so then I would expect some push back as that is going to be a large factor in determining if it's reasonable and you probably don't have a lot of leverage with an offer in a different city that is substantially lower in absolute terms.
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May 10, 2016 15:27
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So I just received a job offer, kind of, and was wondering what you guys would suggest I do to get the most out of things. During the on-site interview, an interviewer asked my salary expectation and I was careful not to throw out a number, explaining that there were many things I would have to consider and I didn't want to unintentionally low-ball myself without considering cost of living changes, etc (this job is in a more expensive part of the country I have never lived in before). So today, HR emailed me essentially saying "congratulations, we would like to offer you a position! BTW, what are your salary expectations? Next up the hiring manager will call you with the actual offer. Peace out for now." So now, since this new job would require a move to an area of the country I am almost entirely unfamiliar with (relocation will be covered, I'm not worried about that), I'm not sure how to adjust what I'm currently making for cost or living, and then on top of that, I'm unsure of how much more to ask for to avoid making a straight lateral move. Additionally, while I like their continuing education programs (essentially a no strings attached, all expenses paid masters degree) and dental/vision, their health insurance kind of sucks and I would be getting less vacation days. What would you guys advise I do if my end game is to basically make more money (after COL adjustment and wanting to offset crappy insurance) and get the extra week of vacation I get now? I'm erring on the side of waiting to see if the hiring manager will call me with an offer first, but from their wording it's hard to tell if they're waiting on a number from me before getting that far...
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May 12, 2016 17:52
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i took a job at a startup a little over a year ago under the understanding the offer was below market but that i'd be given time for personal research projects and my salary would be adjusted to compensate after our series A they had taken a small friends and family round and a seed round before i joined and raised what they termed a 'second seed round' in december. i was told a series A would follow within 12 months at the time the research time never really happened due to normal startup time pressure, my team headcount never hit the target i was given when i joined and i hit every personal and team milestone i was assigned i asked about salary review about a month before my 1 year anniversary and was told salary reviews were ongoing and i would hear back soon. i just got my adjustment and it is frankly insulting. the equity grant is the bare minimum i would expect and the salary increase is tiny as a percentage of my compensation and still leaves me making much less than i could be making elsewhere i was told to not expect another adjustment until next spring when we are profitable and that the series A is on hold to 'preserve employee equity' is this situation salvageable or should i walk immediately? i believe i'm critical to operations but that my manager/COO think i'm low risk to quit. most of the dev team were pulled out of the corporate world, are vastly underpaid and are uncomfortable 'rocking the boat'. the few that aren't have significant equity (far more than me)
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May 12, 2016 22:21
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Typical start up bullshit. Promise the sun and stars in lieu of market rate pay, and deliver none of it. The long delay on Series A funding might signal problems, too. If you want to get paid what you're worth, get out. Unless you really love the insanity, start ups are a lovely proposition unless you're a founder or significant equity ground floor employee. Even then, 99% chance your equity is worthless in 12 months when the company folds. Guinness fucked around with this message at 23:07 on May 12, 2016 |
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May 12, 2016 23:04
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Deadite posted:I applied to a few internal jobs last month, and I currently have third interviews for two of those jobs scheduled for later this week. My boss is concerned that I may actually leave his team for a new position and has offered me around a 10% bump in salary to stay. So to build on this, I interviewed for both of the internal jobs and both interviews went well. I know that the manager I interviewed with yesterday was checking my references today, and that was the interview I thought I did less well in. Here's my issue though: say that if my current salary band is 1, I am interviewing for a level 2 job and a level 3 job, but the level 2 job may be a better opportunity than the level 3. Level 2 would involve a decent level of interaction with the executive board of a fortune 500 company, which could be better down the road, whereas the level 3 job sounds fine but involves more layers of managers between the position and the executives. Level 3 will almost certainly pay better though. Are potential networking opportunities worth accepting a lower salary? As far as the team I am on currently goes, I really like my boss and the people I work with, but I really do need to earn more if I am going to stay in Boston. My boss has told me that he can't make a case to promote me unless I get a job offer from either of these interviews, so I have to see how all of this plays out before I can see what they will offer me to stay where I am.
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May 12, 2016 23:54
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the talent deficit posted:i took a job at a startup a little over a year ago under the understanding the offer was below market but that i'd be given time for personal research projects and my salary would be adjusted to compensate after our series A
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May 12, 2016 23:55
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Guinness posted:Even then, 99% chance your equity is worthless in 12 months when the company folds.
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May 13, 2016 00:30
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Gin_Rummy posted:So I just received a job offer, kind of, and was wondering what you guys would suggest I do to get the most out of things. Ask for it. Seriously, figure out what the cost of living difference will be, get them to cover that plus your desired improvement. Ask for the extra week of vacation. Get a quote on independent insurance on an exchange and get that covered by your raise. Ask for these things. If they say no then you're missing out on living in a more expensive area of the country and a potentially free MBA. the talent deficit posted:i took a job at a startup a little over a year ago under the understanding the offer was below market but that i'd be given time for personal research projects and my salary would be adjusted to compensate after our series A You need to leave. There are startups without totally toxic culture, but this isn't one of them. It will never get healthy, you will never be properly compensated, they will never give you that research time, you will never get the headcount you expect. Nothing will get good. Cut your losses now.
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May 13, 2016 21:39
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Who has two thumbs and two job offers on the table? Tragically not me, I only have one thumb
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May 13, 2016 23:25
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Deadite posted:Who has two thumbs and two job offers on the table?  thumb
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May 13, 2016 23:39
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I heard the advice recently that it's better to ask for a specific number rather than a rounded one (e.g., 65,225 instead of 65,000) since it can make you seem more serious, as if you really put a lot of research into that specific number for some reason. I like this strategy because while it may not work any miracles, I can't see how it'd ever hurt you.
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May 15, 2016 15:20
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You sound like a weird guy worried about $225?
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May 15, 2016 16:35
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I think asking for more significant figures than should be relevant makes you sound like a goof.
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May 15, 2016 17:49
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I think asking for more significant figures than should be relevant makes you sound like a goof. It also depends on the offer you received. I wouldn't go any further than a $500 breakdown unless the starting offer did, in which case you can match their sig figs. My most recent offer from a company was delivered to single dollar resolution, so I had clear negotiation room with that, but most don't do that.
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May 15, 2016 21:28
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Sundae posted:It also depends on the offer you received. I wouldn't go any further than a $500 breakdown unless the starting offer did, in which case you can match their sig figs. I love the idea of negotiating a salary down to single dollars. "$55,231." "I'm sorry. I just can't do it for less than $55,286." El Mero Mero fucked around with this message at 07:08 on May 16, 2016 |
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May 16, 2016 04:49
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Please also reconsider anything else told to you by whoever dropped that bit of knowledge on you.
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May 16, 2016 04:53
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So the dude that emailed me about the offer was out of office when I replied to him with my price point on Friday and now I have yet to hear anything back. At what point would it be acceptable to politely ask, "yo dude, you gonna reply to me or what/hey, did you even get my email while you were gone?"
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May 16, 2016 17:33
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bro it's monday chill the gently caress out
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May 16, 2016 19:17
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