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I had a great interview for a digital marketing position at a small local company. I anticipate an offer sometime late this week. I loved the company and it's exactly in the field I want to be in. I also have student loan payments, though, and money is a big deal at this point. I'd be taking an 10% paycut - and there's really no benefits other than a pretty generous (14 day) PTO + paid holidays, and work-from-home opportunities. Is it reasonable to negotiate job title -- say, from manager to director? Or, to request an addition day of PTO/year (15 makes it 3 weeks off, total, which I can 100% live with)? (Cross posted to interview thread. Sorry goons.)
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Jun 14, 2016 13:22
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Bitchkrieg posted:I had a great interview for a digital marketing position at a small local company. I anticipate an offer sometime late this week. I loved the company and it's exactly in the field I want to be in. I also have student loan payments, though, and money is a big deal at this point. Yes that's all reasonable to negotiate for. Are you actually willing to walk on the offer if they won't give you the additional day and the better title?
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Jun 14, 2016 14:53
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Yeah no use speculating. I think you can manage it OK with the client relationship, just say hey the title was important to me, if we can't see eye to eye on that or have some compensation for that being removed of (X) then I appreciate the offer but am not interested. I think it's a fair position to hold. Yeah, good point. I'll write them tonight and bring it up. I went back and checked the original job listing and it specifically describes two distinct teams in the organisational structure, so it's really something that they sprung out of nowhere. I'm not even sure that I'll accept the position if they fix the title, since the EVP explicitly said that they would "align the titles in the fall no matter what the outcome of this"
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Jun 14, 2016 16:30
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Well, after the longest offer negotiation ever (seriously, does it always take three weeks from the verbal offer to finalize the details?), I have decided to turn down the job. Their salary offer was well below my minimum and they didn't even attempt to meet me in the middle from my initial ludicrous salary "expectation," nor would they budge on any of the benefits or perks. Pretty disappointing, overall. Anywho, I wrote up a nice little email saying I regretfully had to decline and all that, but they've now replied asking for a reason and they're wondering if the salary was my primary reason. Is this standard protocol? I've never been in a position to turn down an offer, so this is new territory for me. I'm wondering if I should be truthful or if I should just give some BS "there were many factors at play" kind of response?
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Jun 15, 2016 14:52
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What cost is there to you to telling the truth?
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Jun 15, 2016 15:25
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:What cost is there to you to telling the truth? None, I would assume. I'm just guessing there is also no point in trying to justify it to them, because it's not like they will care that it would be a paycut or that I would get less vacation, etc.
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Jun 15, 2016 15:32
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Easy to just enumerate the most important reasons and costs nothing. Btw 3 weeks is long but not crazy. I had one job take 3 months of haggling because there was some chicanery on their part about needing to wait to fire someone so I could take their spot, and I wasn't in a particular hurry to leave my old job.
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Jun 15, 2016 15:57
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Gin_Rummy posted:Well, after the longest offer negotiation ever (seriously, does it always take three weeks from the verbal offer to finalize the details?), I have decided to turn down the job. Their salary offer was well below my minimum and they didn't even attempt to meet me in the middle from my initial ludicrous salary "expectation," nor would they budge on any of the benefits or perks. Pretty disappointing, overall. I'd reply that their offer was not satisfactory and that they demonstrated they would not adjust it to make it satisfactory. If they continue to be curious then you can start to enumerate all the things they wouldn't budge. Believe it or not the people with whom you are dealing might never have been involved in hiring someone with a backbone before and so used to getting their way that they're honestly flummoxed that anyone would turn them down or demand them to actually change their offer. While continuing to participate in the conversation gains you nothing in this exact circumstance, it will help the next person who has a backbone, and costs you nearly nothing to do.
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Jun 15, 2016 17:07
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Gin_Rummy posted:Well, after the longest offer negotiation ever (seriously, does it always take three weeks from the verbal offer to finalize the details?), I have decided to turn down the job. Their salary offer was well below my minimum and they didn't even attempt to meet me in the middle from my initial ludicrous salary "expectation," nor would they budge on any of the benefits or perks. Pretty disappointing, overall. On top of what others have said, if you can post their response to your reasons for turning them down it might help the thread see the negotiation process from the other side. I'd guess the number one reason people don't negotiate is the fear of losing the offer and since you turned this one down, it could be interesting.
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Jun 15, 2016 23:02
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MickeyFinn posted:On top of what others have said, if you can post their response to your reasons for turning them down it might help the thread see the negotiation process from the other side. I'd guess the number one reason people don't negotiate is the fear of losing the offer and since you turned this one down, it could be interesting. That's a good point. I replied to them earlier this afternoon, and while I don't expect a response I'll be sure to outline it here if they do give me anything other than, "very well, thank you."
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Jun 15, 2016 23:27
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Yes that's all reasonable to negotiate for. They couldn't meet my (seriously 100% reasonable) salary requirement, so no job for me. The founder was a good guy, though, and recommended other local companies, praised my education/knowledge, and asked to keep in touch. On the upside, I got an interview with a similar company doing analytics/marketing, so it's all good. I'm spending my night refreshing my R and Tableau.
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Jun 16, 2016 00:57
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Bitchkrieg posted:They couldn't meet my (seriously 100% reasonable) salary requirement, so no job for me. The founder was a good guy, though, and recommended other local companies, praised my education/knowledge, and asked to keep in touch. Good to stick to your guns, and good luck!
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Jun 16, 2016 01:20
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Gin_Rummy posted:Well, after the longest offer negotiation ever (seriously, does it always take three weeks from the verbal offer to finalize the details?), I have decided to turn down the job. Their salary offer was well below my minimum and they didn't even attempt to meet me in the middle from my initial ludicrous salary "expectation," nor would they budge on any of the benefits or perks. Pretty disappointing, overall. I've had good candidates take higher paying jobs elsewhere, and when they've provided that feedback, I've been grateful for it. And then I used that feedback to advocate for more budget room for future hires.
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Jun 16, 2016 23:38
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Success story time (in part thanks to this thread). My brother got an offer of X. I suggested he counter with X+15% and a USD 10k moving allowance to help with the move (moving across neighbouring countries). Only BATNA at the time was staying at home, no other offer on the table. We articulated the rationale (benchmark vs. market, move requires much cost etc). They accepted fully, no questions asked. Nothing fancy or unusual but yet another example of ALWAYS NEGOTIATE.
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Jun 26, 2016 18:57
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The Capitulator posted:Success story time (in part thanks to this thread). Fantastic! Love the username /post combo.
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Jun 27, 2016 01:44
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The Capitulator posted:Success story time (in part thanks to this thread). This is the best kind.
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Jun 27, 2016 22:43
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I'm nearing decision time between two positions, and this thread has been quite helpful. I managed to avoid naming a salary at the interview for a government post-doc and have been offered more than $10K more than I was expecting for the position based on glassdoor. I also managed to avoid giving any actual numbers at an interview with a private company earlier today, despite the fact that I talked one-on-one with the CEO for several hours, and it sounds like I'll have a formal offer from them soon. It would appear that I'll be in a very good BANTA position, and I was able to keep a cool head through all of this despite the desperation from long-term unemployment because of this thread.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:15
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Is there a way to ask what a job postings' salary band is out of the blue, or is that not kosher? IE: I come across a job posting on LinkedIn that looks interesting, but I don't want to waste either of our time if the salary isn't what I'm looking for.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:38
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kloa posted:Is there a way to ask what a job postings' salary band is out of the blue, or is that not kosher? Probably not. If it is a bigish company, try glass door.
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Jun 30, 2016 00:16
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Update: Ugh. The recruiter I've been talking to about this position for over a month e-mailed me earlier (post interview) and explicitly asked, "Give me a range please." Suggestions for handling that?
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Jun 30, 2016 03:18
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poeticoddity posted:Update: Ugh. The recruiter I've been talking to about this position for over a month e-mailed me earlier (post interview) and explicitly asked, "Give me a range please." Suggestions for handling that?
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Jun 30, 2016 04:09
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swenblack posted:I'm going to assume this is the private company you mentioned a couple posts ago. Is it the company's recruiter or a third party recruiter? If it's a third party recruiter, just press her for the offer. If it's a company recruiter, give the top number of your range +$5k as your salary requirement. Either way, tell them you're excited to work with $company but you have another offer you plan on accepting and need their best offer immediately. Third party recruiter. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Jun 30, 2016 05:51
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Firstly, thank you thread. You have been an absolutely invaluable resource. I have followed this thread, and the previous thread, quite diligently for a while. However, I have mostly concentrated on the posts for how to negotiate external offers. I'm hoping for some advice on an internal offer coming my way. Quick background: I've had some external offers but haven't found the right position to leave my current job. I was approached by another department within IT recently for a fairly related position that is very exciting for me in terms of learning new skills, long term career growth, etc. I had an interview and was told at the end that an offer is coming (thanks, interviewing thread!  ). The director at my current position knows I interviewed and probably expects the offer as she has already asked if I would stay for a title change and raise. I responded that I would be open to staying but would need to see the specifics of their counter offer to make a decision.I enjoy my current position but am ready to move on - in other words, unless it's an amazing counter offer, I plan to take the new position. I don't expect the counter offer to be that amazing anyways, but would like to leverage it, if possible. Is there a certain etiquette or process for negotiating an internal offer by leveraging a counter offer from your current position? When I receive the initial offer, should I take that back to my current director and let them know, wait for a counter offer, and then take the counter offer to negotiate the initial offer? As one more relevant note: the new position had an external candidate that accepted an offer, started orientation, and then accepted a counter offer from their current position. So, my company might be sensitive to the power of a counter offer. Thanks in advance! Fireside Nut fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 10:08
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Fireside Nut posted:Firstly, thank you thread. You have been an absolutely invaluable resource. There's less discussion about internal offers for a few reasons, let's talk about how it differs from negotiating multiple offers from different companies: - The two parties you're negotiating with know each other, are able to easily contact each other, and there's less information asymmetry. - While you can play them off each other to some extent, ultimately they're both still going to be limited by the same accounting department. - You have less leverage as they can impact your day to day life after you take your ball and go home. This is where a lot of political maneuvering and turf battles derive from; because there's less room for naked aggression you get more passive aggressive behavior. To wit: I'd get an offer from the new department, take it back to your current director for a counter offer, and then play that where it will go. I would deliberately avoid setting a goal with the new department that they could meet, because if they meet it and you then proceed to juice it with a competing offer from your current department, you're demonstrating that meeting your demands will not satisfy you. I'd only play one round of this back and forth, because past that you run the risk of uniting the two directors against you instead of playing them off each other. Basically internal offers are a more nuanced, riskier game to play. The culture of where you work will dictate a lot of what you can and cannot do, and you know more about that than anyone posting in this thread does. (Probably)
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Jun 30, 2016 14:19
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Basically internal offers are a more nuanced, riskier game to play. The culture of where you work will dictate a lot of what you can and cannot do, and you know more about that than anyone posting in this thread does. (Probably) Agreed. I want to echo the point around making sure you limit the back and forth - it can quickly turn from a healthy competition for talent into a united front against a difficult subordinate. In my company, each role is evaluated by an independent rewards team (thus limiting the power a hiring manager has in terms of setting the 'rates') and the only way to really negotiate a raise with a 'lateral' move is to beef up the new position's JD - that way, it's an increase driven by higher level of responsibility and scope. So if this was playing out in my company and my current boss comes up with a counter-offer for certain title & scope, I would suggest a scope modification to boost the roles profile, obviously in line with what I perceive are the department's 'pain points'.
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Jun 30, 2016 19:46
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Mr. President, Capitulator, thank you very much for the helpful advice. I envisioned single round of back-and-forth so it's great to hear that sentiment echoed in your responses. I managed to leave the interview knowing an offer is coming, but did not set any goals/expectations for salary -- so hopefully this will be helpful. I plan to take the offer back to my current director when it arrives. Since I said I was open to hearing a counter-offer and potentially staying (not really going to stay either way) I'm planning on phrasing it something along the lines of, "I received an offer for position X for $Megamillions and would like to give you an opportunity to respond before making a decision." I want to leave it open and not set any goals this direction either. Then, take it back to the new director and see where it goes. Anyways, I've handled the whole process professionally and, where appropriate, been transparent in letting my current/future directors know what is going on. So maybe leveraging will all work great... or, more likely, HR's algorithm will cap me at a certain point and I am harshly reminded of the difference between internal and external offers  Once again, thanks for the detailed responses! I'll let the thread know how it shakes out...
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Jun 30, 2016 22:25
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I agree with both of what the above two said and want to add that I think you did the right thing by letting your current position know.
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Jul 1, 2016 00:22
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Quick follow-up to my internal negotiation situation: I received the offer for the new internal position which turned out to be pretty decent so I feel I have a great starting point no matter how it all shakes out. Since then, I've started the counter-offer process with my current director. With my new offer being pretty good, I'm not sure if the counter-offer will be able to exceed it. I've made it clear to my current director that the counter-offer would have to exceed the new offer in order for me to consider staying. If it's the case that the counter-offer doesn't surpass the new one, I'm guessing I don't have much of a BATNA to fall back on. Would it be worthwhile at that point (I know, always negotiate) to make a case for my own counter-offer/target salary (other parts of compensation aren't in play due to company policy)? I would assume I can't aim that much higher anyways, but I'm not sure. I think it would feel disappointing to not make my own counter-offer but I'd like to get this thread's expert advice for some guidance. This is keeping in mind that this will likely be the same HR person or team handling anything in my above scenario. Thanks, as always!
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Jul 8, 2016 01:52
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Fireside Nut posted:Quick follow-up to my internal negotiation situation: In general I think we collectively avoid advising people to negotiate in bad faith. If you make demands of your current department, and they meet those demands, would you stay? That's all this conversation should come down to, because any answer other than 'yes', means that you are setting goals and then not following through when they are met. It sounds like you're ready to go and you're just trying to get more leverage. Nothing wrong with that, but stay clean and respectable in the process. If you set a goal and your current department head meets it with a counter offer and you don't take it, do you think the consequences end there? You chose a low leverage move, don't overplay your hand.
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Jul 8, 2016 15:22
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:In general I think we collectively avoid advising people to negotiate in bad faith. I really appreciate your response. I understand an internal move is low leverage so I wanted to get a feel from experts like you regarding best possible practice in this scenario. I've was very upfront with my current dept that I would consider a counter offer, but it might not be enough for me to stay -- even if it exceeds my new offer. There is a lot to gain career wise from taking the new position and my director has acknowledged as much. Anyways, I'm trying to utilize the small leverage I have but not do so in bad faith. My thought is that of the counter offer is outstanding then I truly would consider staying. I respect my current dept and wanted to give them a chance to respond before moving on. Hopefully this doesn't read as 'bad faith's to the experts in this thread. Thanks again for the advice.
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Jul 8, 2016 15:52
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You probably ought to let them know the specific parameters of an offer that you would accept to stay in your current dept.
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Jul 8, 2016 15:55
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I only just found this thread. If the job I am (hopefully) being offered soon has a salary range of $xx,xxx and $zz,zzz and I'd be ok with the mid-range of $yy,yyy how hard should I swing for the fences? I don't want to say Z when I'd take Y, but I don't want to leave money on the table either. (Also thanks for the moving expenses reminder. I want to ask about that, but won't let it become a deal breaker).
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Jul 11, 2016 17:39
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You said it yourself. Ask for Z and when they offer Y then take it. Who knows you might even get Z!
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Jul 11, 2016 19:10
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Indolent Bastard posted:I only just found this thread. If the job I am (hopefully) being offered soon has a salary range of $xx,xxx and $zz,zzz and I'd be ok with the mid-range of $yy,yyy how hard should I swing for the fences? I don't want to say Z when I'd take Y, but I don't want to leave money on the table either. As we're fond of saying, if you're punished for negotiating, you didn't want to work there anyway.
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Jul 11, 2016 19:22
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Indolent Bastard posted:I only just found this thread. If the job I am (hopefully) being offered soon has a salary range of $xx,xxx and $zz,zzz and I'd be ok with the mid-range of $yy,yyy how hard should I swing for the fences? I don't want to say Z when I'd take Y, but I don't want to leave money on the table either. How do you know the salary range? If it's not through some sort of official channel, I'd ask for like, Z + 10%, there's a good chance they'll take you for Z since it's in their range and you might even get more.
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Jul 11, 2016 19:25
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:How do you know the salary range? If it's not through some sort of official channel, I'd ask for like, Z + 10%, there's a good chance they'll take you for Z since it's in their range and you might even get more. The institution has a published salary grid. I fit a certain row based on the job I am applying for and that row has 9 columns from $xx,xxx through to $zz,zzz (technically $rr,rrr through $zz,zzz I suppose, but you get the point) and there is no column beyond $zz,zzz unless I move down another row (which I'm not even certain exists). Thanks all. Here is hoping that the second interview I just finished will necessitate me taking part in negotiations when I get offered the job. Indolent Bastard fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 19:47
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I had a phone interview followed by a lengthy in-person interview with the CEO of a small privately held company recently for a data scientist position. I'm heading back there again in the morning because the CEO wants to discuss terms for an employment offer. I was told to come with expectations in mind for base salary, insurance, PTO, training, performance incentives and equity/profit sharing. From what I can gather, I'm either one of two candidates or the only remaining candidate. I'm fresh out of grad school and I have no clue what to ask for.  I'm used to living below the poverty line as a TA, so I'm in a bit over my head.BATNA: I have an offer for a postdoc at a government research facility doing research directly related to my graduate work in a geographic area I'd prefer. The stipend offer for the postdoc is about $4K under the area median for data science positions, a training and travel budget that's quite generous, 24 days/year PTO, but no benefits. I'm still waiting for the final contract to review, but I was told I'd maintain majority IP rights and profitable patents are a possibility. I actually think I'd enjoy the postdoc more, but I'm sure there's some TCO that would get me into the data science position.
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Jul 12, 2016 02:15
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Where is the job located and what is your degree? 120k in SanFran/NYC is 75k in Central Florida Start here, most of these appear to be SF based companies and thus very high salaries: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/data-scientist-salary-SRCH_KO0,14.htm The whole thing about equity in the company is something you really need to understand to negotiate. If you believe in the company's vision and the owner's plan to go public/get bought then this can pay huge dividends...but each round of funding they've gone through means you can expect less and less equity. Understanding what the company has been valued at through funding rounds and being able to quickly do napkin math is important here...and not something youre going to learn by the morning if you didnt already google the answer to your question. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jul 12, 2016 |
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Jul 12, 2016 03:19
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Atlanta and PhD in Psychology with an unusual specialty. The stipend offer I have for the postdoc (other area) already beats average pay for a data scientist here. I actually really like the company model and business plan, and to my understanding it's currently all held by the CEO and CTO with small quantities of equity probably held by a few other employees. They're planning on conservatively seeking outside funding soon, to my understanding. I guess the big thing that would be helpful to have a rough guideline for tomorrow morning is what value health insurance and PTO at when weighing those against salary, bonuses, and equity.
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Jul 12, 2016 03:53
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If you think the company will really truly be worth something and get bought up you probably don't care about PTO...you wont be able to use it anyway...and the equity is usually to offset a low salary with the risk of a potential big payday later. I've gotten stock from a company but it was already publicly traded so it was easy to tell the value. If you get equity in the form of RSUs and you're the last to get paid and everyone else has preferred stock...the value of your stock will probably be nothing if the company folds. As far as the health insurance, best I can suggest is to get a quote for private health insurance...that's what it is worth to you. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jul 12, 2016 |
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Jul 12, 2016 04:00
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