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Nthing the "I have personally had conversations about money with my employer and had it work out fine, and I've had people who have came to me about their pay and had it work out fine." If you think you are a good performer and have some trust in your boss I think its in your best interest. 1. Don't compare yourself to other people or new hires, it's a losing game and becomes a personal thing. Comparing yourself to the pay band or to how you've picked up more responsibility is a much better idea. 2. Don't get emotional on it, even if your boss does. We tie pay to our worth as a person and it can make us act emotionally, that won't help. 3. Understand that these things frequently take time, managers rarely have the power to just unilaterally change salary. Out of cycle adjustments are not uncommon but usually require signoff from executives and HR. but 4. If you get pushback beyond feeling out or significant delay tactics recognize those as your answer. The best course there is politely agree and thank your manager for the consideration and then go looking for something else or putting a plan together for jumping in the future.
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Dec 12, 2020 16:33
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I work in public accounting as a manager at one of the very large firms. I had a loving miserable busy season compounded with some personal tragedy, and I was passed up for promotion to a Senior Manager role this year while a low-performer with tenure was promoted. These two factors made me decide to leave, so I updated my resume and started talking to recruiters. I was recruited by Company A for a specialized technology role that would be of great benefit in terms stress/working hours since it's going to be an exit from being the clients' punching bag. The compensation is a 25% increase of my current salary plus a signing bonus. I'm also more excited about the work itself than my current role. The offer exceeded the threshold that I set for myself to leave, so I accepted, signed the offer, and let my boss know that I am gone after Christmas. He immediately freaked out at the prospect of me leaving, as it would have a very strong negative impact on his clients and staffing. He asked if they could match the offer would I consider staying, to which I replied I would not. He is still intending on putting together a counter-offer to try to retain me, but it kind of feels too-little-too-late at this point. I feel a bit cynical that my contributions were taken for granted until I expressed that I am smart/disloyal enough to jump ship and get paid more. The "you could make partner here" carrot was dangled, but that doesn't really appeal to me. My concern is also that the immediate pay bump to retain me would basically be cannibalizing my future raises until I am in-line with my cohort again. If the counter-offer is in the realm of absurdity I would be foolish not to ask Company A to try to close the gap right? My intent was not to start a bidding war, but it seems dumb to waste an opportunity and the worst Company A could say is no.
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Dec 12, 2020 20:34
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You already accepted their offer. The time to have negotiated that would have been when you were still negotiating. Just accept what you've secured and be happy with it because you've already summed up their response perfectly:Stoop Kid posted:too-little-too-late at this point
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Dec 12, 2020 20:43
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Do not stay at your firm, take the job you know is better. You could make partner (or at least ED) by rejoining one of these firms in 5 years. Don’t buy into that. If you’ve already accepted the job at company A, going back to ask for more is a dicey move. Not impossible but maybe not advisable. If you’re happy with the comp, just thank your current place, don’t entertain a counter, and move on.
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Dec 12, 2020 20:46
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PIZZA.BAT posted:You already accepted their offer. The time to have negotiated that would have been when you were still negotiating. Just accept what you've secured and be happy with it because you've already summed up their response perfectly: Yes, this. There is nothing more to discuss. Your about-to-be-former employer had their chance, they persisted in undervaluing you, what happens after you're gone is their problem.
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Dec 12, 2020 21:17
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For what it's worth- after a month of back and forth with my next employer we finally settled on a starting date and I put in my resignation notice at my current place. Both my boss and boss's boss called me and asked if I'd consider a counter. Even in this circumstance, where I know they had their hands tied and couldn't give me a raise over the past year due to upper management being in talks with being acquired by private capital, I'm not entertaining it. In the most charitable interpretation they're telling you that you won't be able to get anything moving forwards without outright threatening them / brinkmanship. That isn't a healthy business relationship. You may get what you want in the short term but the problems will still persist and you'll be in the same situation in a few years.
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Dec 12, 2020 22:03
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Stoop Kid posted:I work in public accounting as a manager at one of the very large firms. I had a loving miserable busy season compounded with some personal tragedy, and I was passed up for promotion to a Senior Manager role this year while a low-performer with tenure was promoted. These two factors made me decide to leave, so I updated my resume and started talking to recruiters. Do not accept. I’ve seen staff/seniors accept counter offers that came with an immediate promotion to senior/manager and that’s worked out okay, but even if they promoted you to Senior Manager you’d be capped out at that level. If you could make Partner they would have promoted you already. The clients and firm will be fine. The prior year workpapers should have everything they need 
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Dec 12, 2020 23:08
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Thanks for all the advice goons - I plan to politely decline my firm's counter and enjoy the funemployment between jobs.
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Dec 12, 2020 23:58
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This is something of a related topic: I read online that you should politely decline any requests for exit interviews, since it really only benefits the company and could backfire on your future references depending on what is said. What is the gooncensus on this?
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Dec 13, 2020 17:30
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it kind of depends - if you are leaving on good terms i think it's fine because it does in fact help your previous employer most references now from the company just confirm employment anyway
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Dec 13, 2020 17:32
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From the HR side it would be really lovely and counter productive to sandbag someone for giving an honest exit interview. Their whole point is to gather data about why people are leaving and use that as evidence for change to keep it from happening further. In addition, you generally want to keep good relations with employees for the opportunity to being them back up skilled further down the line. That being said, there's a lot of lovely or spineless HR folks who will crumple at the first sign of a demand from another manager to see the results, so I would say it depends on your relationships with people there and how you think they will react to honest criticism. It is true that it only really benefits the company though.
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Dec 13, 2020 17:47
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Several of my former employers use a third party service to confirm employment even. Unless you’re putting a boss you hated as a reference or you were encouraged to quit before you got fired I wouldn’t even worry about it coming back to bite you. At my last job enough people put in very similar comments at their exit interviews that it led to a particularly bad director getting shifted in to the broom closet to oversee meaningless work, so sometimes the company really does pay attention. If you value your coworkers that you are leaving at the company (which I find is almost always the case), a good exit interview could help them.
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Dec 13, 2020 17:47
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My last exit interview was done by the HR Director. He tried to threaten me to sign a non compete for the roughly 250 companies they do busines with. I told him the non compete in my employment contract was the one that I signed and that stated only the customer I worked for and/or interacted with on behalf of employer were subject to the non compete. He asked me to sign the exit interview papers (which included the new non compete) which I refused. This was at the very end of the exit interview which was a completely normal discussion. I told him the reasons which made me leave and he acknowledged some of the issues and explained how they are working on resolving the others. The ending caught me completely by surprise. My team lead at that company and I go way back so when he was briefed about the outcome of my exit interview gave me a call. HR Director had completely lied about everything I said to the rest of the management team (including team lead). Apparently he took my reasons personal as most of my reasons came from the merger he was responsible for so he made up a lot of BS. Team lead knew that and gave me the heads up on what was relayed to the company. He also mentioned that HR Director tried to bully everyone who left into signing that non compete and that he knows of several people who signed it and then got sued for breaking it. Incredibly lovely thing to do and I’m glad I was aware of the poo poo he was trying to pull there. I certainly am not doing exit interviews anymore and that team lead is the only reference I’ll ever list for that role.
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Dec 13, 2020 19:58
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Just do the exit interview and give meaningless generic answers to the questions. Anyone who matters should already know why you're leaving or it's not going to get fixed anyway. If they're going to lie about it then they'll probably do it even if you decline the interview.
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Dec 13, 2020 20:32
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When I lived in Michigan the company I worked for tried to get me to sign a non-compete that was incredibly vague and would have barred me from working with any company that dealt with the same technology I was working with at the time. That would have basically barred me from any embedded Linux projects for 2 years after I left. I refused to sign the stupid thing until they amended the non-compete to be way more specific. Then 3 months later I left and never looked back.
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Dec 13, 2020 20:54
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practically speaking for most industries non competes are incredibly difficult to enforce in most jurisdictions and you'll really only get nailed for them if you're like, in sales and bringing your book of business along.
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Dec 13, 2020 22:59
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:practically speaking for most industries non competes are incredibly difficult to enforce in most jurisdictions and you'll really only get nailed for them if you're like, in sales and bringing your book of business along. The problem is, I absolutely would have gone to their competitors for more money. I’m a business man, I happen to be in the business of “what benefits me.”
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Dec 13, 2020 23:01
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:practically speaking for most industries non competes are incredibly difficult to enforce in most jurisdictions and you'll really only get nailed for them if you're like, in sales and bringing your book of business along. What about tech?
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Dec 14, 2020 02:24
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Quackles posted:What about tech? The same is generally true unless you're a founder/owner or you're getting paid after you've left and it's active. The problem with non-competes tends to be the threat they represent and not if they're actually enforceable. Your new company is probably not willing to go to bat for you if the old company tries to enforce it.
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Dec 14, 2020 03:25
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This can vary from country to country though. Where I live there's plenty of court cases where non competes held up in court for IC's. They had to be reasonable though, which more or less means it's only valid for companies you directly interacted with and/or direct competitors in a limited distance of your currenct company (usually for brick & mortar stores). Still the thought of a lawsuit against you is a lot more threatening for an individual who's not familiar with non competes, which is probably what companies aim for anyway. Most of them know they won't win in court and won't let it come to that when push comes to shove. If only 1 in 10 does adhere to it, it's still an easy win for them.
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Dec 14, 2020 09:36
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Gigi Galli posted:Several of my former employers use a third party service to confirm employment even. Unless you’re putting a boss you hated as a reference or you were encouraged to quit before you got fired I wouldn’t even worry about it coming back to bite you.
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Dec 14, 2020 13:22
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Dik Hz posted:You do realize that if it takes multiple people leaving to get the director sidelined, that's a sign of dysfunction. In order for an exit interview to have value, upper management/HR would have to ignore workers until they resign and only then listen. That's more than a little hosed up if you think about it too long. Well yes, I was one of the people that gave an exit interview that led to it - I left because of the dysfunction! I probably should’ve said that.
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Dec 14, 2020 18:03
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Worked at a place that would put you on the 'do not rehire' list if you opted out of the exit interview. Was a dysfunctional company, so take that for what it's worth. I guess I don't understand why it's not a good idea to just go in and say 'everything was fine' on your way out.
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Dec 14, 2020 18:32
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Because you’ll be Ineligible For Rehired anyway when you refuse to sign the noncompete.
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Dec 14, 2020 19:33
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81sidewinder posted:I guess I don't understand why it's not a good idea to just go in and say 'everything was fine' on your way out.
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Dec 14, 2020 21:29
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Had an offer a few years ago with a non-compete clause that applied to "companies in the same industry within 75 miles of the region in which we operate" Tried to get the hiring manager to strike it and he told me "well the lawyers say we gotta put it in there" and I kind of absentmindedly blurted out "well, who's in charge, you or the lawyers?", he laughed and changed the subject They didn't pull the offer but I don't think that won me any points. They wouldn't change it. Didn't end up taking the offer.
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Dec 14, 2020 21:32
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That would be a good example of an unenforceable noncompete. But gently caress 'em anyway.
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Dec 15, 2020 00:46
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It's probably enforceable if it's paid but depends on the state and, well, them actually bothering.
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Dec 15, 2020 03:28
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I've always wondered what's stopping people from not sharing their next employer with their current one? Doesn't work if you're in sales and poaching clients, but for the average corporate drone in a major city who's going to know?
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Dec 15, 2020 03:30
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BeastOfExmoor posted:I've always wondered what's stopping people from not sharing their next employer with their current one? Doesn't work if you're in sales and poaching clients, but for the average corporate drone in a major city who's going to know? Idk if I've ever told an old job what my new job is. I don't think I've ever been asked "officially" either.
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Dec 15, 2020 22:04
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Xguard86 posted:Idk if I've ever told an old job what my new job is. I don't think I've ever been asked "officially" either. I did earlier this week when I gave my manager my resignation notice. She asked if I minded telling her about my new job, and because she's not an arsehole and understood the reasons why I'm leaving, I did. She congratulated me and wished me well in my new role 
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Dec 16, 2020 12:57
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I always ask if people leave because they have a new job lined up because a) I am genuinely curious and b) I am happy for them and want to stay in touch. But this is consulting, exit plans are normal. Plus, if they don't want to share, that's fine. If you leave without a job lined up you've probably been fired or been told you will be fired and are therefore probably someone I don't like or am uninterested in professionally.
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Dec 16, 2020 13:28
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BeastOfExmoor posted:I've always wondered what's stopping people from not sharing their next employer with their current one? Doesn't work if you're in sales and poaching clients, but for the average corporate drone in a major city who's going to know? Plenty of folks. At my last job, the non-compete ran two years and they were somewhat aggressive about enforcement. (only had to sign it at the director level or above) - if you updated your LinkedIn, or they knew folks where you were going, they would find out and try to enforce it. Some people tried to stealthily get around it and largely failed / were caught. Most of these were ultimately resolved, and they generally worked with folks who were open about it - eg it might be ok to go to a competitor, but they would ask you (and your boss at the new job) to agree you couldn't work on accounts you had worked on for them. The general consensus from lawyers I spoke to about it was that DC caselaw wasn't established enough on noncompetes to know how enforcement would shake out. In VA/MD it would be unenforceable.
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Dec 16, 2020 13:31
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Zauper posted:Plenty of folks. At my last job, the non-compete ran two years and they were somewhat aggressive about enforcement. (only had to sign it at the director level or above) - if you updated your LinkedIn, or they knew folks where you were going, they would find out and try to enforce it. Some people tried to stealthily get around it and largely failed / were caught. Most of these were ultimately resolved, and they generally worked with folks who were open about it - eg it might be ok to go to a competitor, but they would ask you (and your boss at the new job) to agree you couldn't work on accounts you had worked on for them. Director level is definitely going to be harder. I was thinking more of the bullshit non-competes some places try to get all employees to sign that are incredibly broad (IE, Not A Children's from earlier this page: "companies in the same industry within 75 miles of the region in which we operate") and are mostly used to try to scare employees into staying rather than actually preventing competition. You're definitely going to want to avoid updating your LinkedIn, but after 3-6 months I suspect that the management level who would care about enforcing a non-compete will have forgotten a previous employee existed.
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Dec 16, 2020 22:13
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Stoop Kid posted:I work in public accounting as a manager at one of the very large firms. I had a loving miserable busy season compounded with some personal tragedy, and I was passed up for promotion to a Senior Manager role this year while a low-performer with tenure was promoted. These two factors made me decide to leave, so I updated my resume and started talking to recruiters. As a lawgoon with an accounting fiancee, congrats on hitting a home run and getting out of the toxic rat race.
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Dec 17, 2020 00:50
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:If you leave without a job lined up you've probably been fired or been told you will be fired and are therefore probably someone I don't like or am uninterested in professionally. Are you seriously saying that you are not interested in anyone that got fired unexpectantly? 
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Dec 17, 2020 06:39
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LochNessMonster posted:Are you seriously saying that you are not interested in anyone that got fired unexpectantly? This is discussion about people leaving a specific job, not the general population. I have no issue with people in general who got fired unexpectedly, but If you get fired from my firm it's for a consistent, documented track record of poor performance, full stop, and therefore I only care about where you end up in the specific context of "let me make it so I never have to interact with you again"
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Dec 17, 2020 13:40
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:This is discussion about people leaving a specific job, not the general population. I have no issue with people in general who got fired unexpectedly, but If you get fired from my firm it's for a consistent, documented track record of poor performance, full stop, and therefore I only care about where you end up in the specific context of "let me make it so I never have to interact with you again" I didn't read that you only meant at your current employer, but that can make sense. As a blanket statement it'd be pretty weird as I've seen bad managers fire a plenty of decent people for BS or no reasons at all.
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Dec 17, 2020 14:12
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:This is discussion about people leaving a specific job, not the general population. I have no issue with people in general who got fired unexpectedly, but If you get fired from my firm it's for a consistent, documented track record of poor performance, full stop, and therefore I only care about where you end up in the specific context of "let me make it so I never have to interact with you again" This is closing in on peak BFC 
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Dec 18, 2020 04:23
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Vox Nihili posted:This is closing in on peak BFC why
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Dec 18, 2020 17:26
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