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fourwood posted:get that bread Hell yeah come join us in line for 
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Jan 15, 2021 19:53
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Hi thread. The wife has currently been offered a position at her old job, basically the same she was doing, but with a promotion. She left around 18 months ago. At her previous tenure, she accumulated around 8% raise over 3+ years of service. When they asked for her salary expectations, she gave an ambitious but realistic number, which they accepted. New salary: 45% higher than her last paycheck at the place.
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Jan 18, 2021 11:17
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bolind posted:Hi thread. 
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Jan 18, 2021 13:56
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bolind posted:Hi thread.
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Jan 18, 2021 14:00
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Dik Hz posted:Congrats to her! Put it in the win column. But that's a sure sign she could have asked for more. If your old job tries to hire you back, the best number is the highest one you can say with a straight face. That's the eternal question. If you get what you asked for, did you squeeze them for their last penny or was there still room for more. We'll never know, but I'm a fan of a couple of philosophies: - No one ever went broke taking profits. - Know when you've won. - This is a datapoint that can be used in future negotiations. In this particular case, we took her current base + best-case bonus, which has been very shaky in 2020, Added 5%, rounded up and went for it. New position doesn't have bonus, so it's guaranteed salary.
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Jan 18, 2021 14:29
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bolind posted:That's the eternal question. If you get what you asked for, did you squeeze them for their last penny or was there still room for more.
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Jan 18, 2021 14:32
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I think I’ve told this story before, but once, in an interview, I was asked for my salary expectations. I said a number, to which the interviewing manager blurted out: “That’s a lot! How does that compare to what you’re making now?” Let’s just say that any and all desire to work for him vanished in the following seconds.
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Jan 18, 2021 16:46
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Dik Hz posted:Well, my thought process is that saying a gently caress-off number first is part of how the game is played. Both sides know this. If the other side punishes you for playing the game, they're assholes who you probably don't want to work for. I've banged this gong for years in this thread. But, if someone punishes you for trying to negotiate, they're a poo poo employer and will be even worse when you actually work for them. can you give some examples of what punishment for negotiating can look like? i'm pretty new to negotiating salary and want to know what to look out for.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:01
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Pulling an offer.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:30
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durrneez posted:can you give some examples of what punishment for negotiating can look like? i'm pretty new to negotiating salary and want to know what to look out for. I want to impress this point: Decent managers want to pay competitive market rates because it's really hard to retain talented people if you don't. Determining salary should be at least partially collaborative because employees want money and managers want to keep them when they stick around long enough to be productive.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:44
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Dik Hz posted:I want to impress this point: Decent managers want to pay competitive market rates because it's really hard to retain talented people if you don't. Determining salary should be at least partially collaborative because employees want money and managers want to keep them when they stick around long enough to be productive. This is very true. We pay a bit to a lot under market and I have no wiggle room (pay bands and such). So I have to sell hard on the PTO and other benefits (which really are very good and worth a lot), especially the 40 hour work week. Doesn't always work though as money is money. I have not been able to come to terms with a number of folks that I would have loved to hire. Sucks but oh well.
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Jan 18, 2021 18:15
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Dik Hz posted:I want to impress this point: Decent managers want to pay competitive market rates because it's really hard to retain talented people if you don't. Determining salary should be at least partially collaborative because employees want money and managers want to keep them when they stick around long enough to be productive. Also, in the long run, it’s in everybody’s interest that salaries are fair. Managers (should) want motivated, happy employees and employees want to be able to argue that they provide value to the company in the event of financial dire straits. Being way overcompensated is great but unsustainable, just like the other way around is, seen from the company’s point of view.
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Jan 18, 2021 18:47
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spwrozek posted:This is very true. We pay a bit to a lot under market and I have no wiggle room (pay bands and such). So I have to sell hard on the PTO and other benefits (which really are very good and worth a lot), especially the 40 hour work week. A 40 hour work week is considered a benefit?
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Jan 19, 2021 10:39
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evobatman posted:A 40 hour work week is considered a benefit? 
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Jan 19, 2021 10:48
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evobatman posted:A 40 hour work week is considered a benefit? The people who turn me down usually make $15-25K more at a consulting firms. Usually the expectations is 45 hours billable which usually translates to 50-55 hours of work. So as a selling point for less money it is one of the cards I have to play.
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Jan 19, 2021 16:09
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Just put in my notice. 60% salary increase, better time off, plus going from 3% matching on 6% contribution to retirement to 7% matching on 7% contribution, and when I told them I was leaving, even after I told them my new salary, my boss suggested they wanted to counter. Get loving paid. You're probably worth more than you think you are (I was hoping for a 35% increase while I was searching before I got my offers). Listen to the thread. 
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Jan 22, 2021 23:06
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Thanatosian posted:Just put in my notice. 60% salary increase, better time off, plus going from 3% matching on 6% contribution to retirement to 7% matching on 7% contribution, and when I told them I was leaving, even after I told them my new salary, my boss suggested they wanted to counter. Get loving paid. You're probably worth more than you think you are (I was hoping for a 35% increase while I was searching before I got my offers). Listen to the thread. Congrats and thanks for coming back to the thread to share your success. Are you going to consider a counter depending on the f-you number?
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Jan 22, 2021 23:14
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congrats on all the recent figgies in this thread, warms my heart
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Jan 22, 2021 23:17
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Inner Light posted:Congrats and thanks for coming back to the thread to share your success. Are you going to consider a counter depending on the f-you number?
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Jan 22, 2021 23:45
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Thanatosian posted:Just put in my notice. 60% salary increase, better time off, plus going from 3% matching on 6% contribution to retirement to 7% matching on 7% contribution, and when I told them I was leaving, even after I told them my new salary, my boss suggested they wanted to counter. Get loving paid. You're probably worth more than you think you are (I was hoping for a 35% increase while I was searching before I got my offers). Listen to the thread. hell yeah
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Jan 23, 2021 00:23
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Thanatosian posted:Had The Talk today with the HR person for the local government office for my hopefully upcoming job switch. It's a union job, pay bands go from $75,000-$95,000, I went ahead and asked for the 8th of ten steps at $91,000. I'm hoping they come back with $80-$85,000, but honestly I would totally take the $75,000 (it's a 25% pay increase with better benefits). Thanatosian posted:New job is $96k, I told them $115k to counter, and they're already spinning up my replacement (who is my protégé, who I recommended they tap, and who I am telling to play hardball on the negotiations). Honestly, even if they had met the $115k, I would have asked for a guaranteed severance as well (which needs signoff from the CEO), because I wouldn't have trusted them being willing to give me a 90% raise. Is this the same job and they offered you more than you asked for? Either way
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Jan 23, 2021 00:40
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BeastOfExmoor posted:Is this the same job and they offered you more than you asked for? Either way  That job actually fell through; it was going to be a "temporary" 36-month position at a government office that makes internal-only job postings all the time that I'm qualified for, but the funding didn't come through, and the term got reduced to 6-12 months. I wasn't worried at three years, but at 6-12 months I was. Which is why you don't put in your notice until you have the official offer, and don't withdraw from consideration of other jobs. Ham Equity fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 00:45
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Dik Hz posted:Threatening to pull an offer. Artificial time pressure. Talking down to someone for attempting to negotiate. A shift in mood during the interview from collaborative to adversarial when salary is brought up. Praising people who took the offer/bad-mouthing people who negotiate. Gossiping behind people's backs about negotiating/not being grateful. A couple jobs back I had a sales director colleague who used to bitch to me about incoming candidates wanting various things - high salaries, benefits, flexible working and so on. It always dumbfounded me. What the gently caress were they supposed to want?
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Jan 24, 2021 14:54
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Beefeater1980 posted:A couple jobs back I had a sales director colleague who used to bitch to me about incoming candidates wanting various things - high salaries, benefits, flexible working and so on. It always dumbfounded me. What the gently caress were they supposed to want? Want? They are not supposed to want. They're are supposed to be GRATEFUL that the JOB CREATORS are generously supplying them with the opportunity to spend the majority of their waking lives away from their home and family!
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Jan 25, 2021 01:35
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An HR/recruiter person asked me how my other interviews were going, and then clarified by asking "How are you feeling about [our company] vs your other prospects?" I get the sense this is probably just fishing to see how hungry I am to low ball me in negotiations. Other than replying with something like "you guys are cool because xyz, but I know my skills are valuable" - is there something else going on here that I should anticipate? 
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Jan 27, 2021 03:04
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Computer Serf posted:is there something else going on here that I should anticipate? I mean, it's always about gaining leverage, so yea low balling is part of it, but it's probably also about timelines. Recruiters, even internal ones, typically want to close job openings as fast as possible. They don't really care if you get a high/low offer, it's just that if they don't have to haggle with HR/management over your compensation, they can move on to the next one faster. So yeah, stay aloof, but positive. You should always show excitement for their company/offer. It doesn't mean you'll accept a low ball.
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Jan 27, 2021 03:09
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sim posted:I mean, it's always about gaining leverage, so yea low balling is part of it, but it's probably also about timelines. Recruiters, even internal ones, typically want to close job openings as fast as possible. They don't really care if you get a high/low offer, it's just that if they don't have to haggle with HR/management over your compensation, they can move on to the next one faster.  thanks simHR mindfuck games are really some sociopathic poo poo
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Jan 27, 2021 06:09
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My wife's bosses are talking with her about a promotion. It's something she'd definitely be OK doing. A call is scheduled to discuss the particulars. Compensation changes haven't been mentioned specifically, but she did say that they "weren't going to ask her take on more responsibilities without the right compensation." She was a bit underpaid with her skill set, but she likes the workplace and people. Also, she has a medical condition and can't really drive out of town or do long/chaotic train commutes. Pre-rona, the office was a 10 minute in-town commute. As of now, they are remote through at least July, and nobody knows whether it'll return to butts-in-seats. Previously they were pretty lousy with letting people work remote. What should we do for negotiating the compensation change? Her role doing retail data analysis and reporting is an oddball in that it involves a fair bit of programming/coding, so it'd be tricky to find salary ranges in comparable industries. Also we're in northern NJ so cost of living changes things up. The only thing I could think of is to look for other retailers in similar size with her function in the metro area, and do our best to look for comparable titles or responsibilities. Then there's the question of what to do if the compensation increase doesn't really do much. I don't think she'd refuse the promotion for insufficient salary bump, nor would she want to leave just yet.
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Jan 27, 2021 14:55
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Computer Serf posted:
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Jan 27, 2021 15:44
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MJP posted:My wife's bosses are talking with her about a promotion. It's something she'd definitely be OK doing. A call is scheduled to discuss the particulars. Compensation changes haven't been mentioned specifically, but she did say that they "weren't going to ask her take on more responsibilities without the right compensation." Why would you limit your search to retailers? It sounds like she has broadly applicable data skills and a lot of those jobs are remote anyway at this point. I don't think your salary benchmarks are going to be that difficult and you're making up numbers anyway at some level, so don't sweat that too much. When you talk about additional responsibilities, does this include people management at all? Otherwise you're likely to get only pretty incremental bumps unless it turns in to complete ownership of certain data products or whatever.
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Jan 27, 2021 16:13
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Why would you limit your search to retailers? It sounds like she has broadly applicable data skills and a lot of those jobs are remote anyway at this point. I don't think your salary benchmarks are going to be that difficult and you're making up numbers anyway at some level, so don't sweat that too much. She's been doing reporting/analytics/etc. for things that are fairly specific to retail - forecasting price markdowns, who gets laid off (fortunately she moved off of the team that did that a year or two back, no more building lasers for the Death Star), etc. She's built up the skill set and seems pretty interested in it, but I didn't specify retail only when futzing through Glassdoor. We've tried poking around with similar titles - data analyst, retail analyst, %softwarename% analyst, etc. I wish Glassdoor had a way of searching through jobs that deal with specific terms - SQL reporting for Excel, %softwarename% dashboard creation, VBA macro stuff, etc. Her title gives so little and "SQL analyst" could mean anything. She won't have direct reports, but she'd be training and sorta team-leading people who do her job. Her bosses want her to move up from a player to a coach is how she puts it.
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Jan 27, 2021 16:48
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Again I think you're likely being too specific - you want broad market comparable so really any technical business analyst title that looks reasonable to you should serve as an anchor. You don't need perfect comps, you need useful comps that are defensible that help her anchor a salary number that she can stick to. The coach thing sounds like a nightmare but I have to run to a meeting and won't post a lot on it. Sounds like classic all responsibility no authority poo poo.
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Jan 27, 2021 16:55
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FWIW they offered a 20% salary bump. We both think she was a bit undercompensated to begin with, but it's more of a technical coach - e.g. how to build reports, query data sources, deal with the retail buyers, etc. It also involves a little more hands-off on things she didn't want to do. She's been getting all the details, and I trust her take on things - she's not going to be a process or product owner or such. As for comp research, is there a better method than "search Glassdoor for data analyst salaries" or "browse Glassdoor for similar-sized companies and any listed salaries" to use? It's easier for me since IT involves fairly specific keywords and titles in some of the stuff I've done, but we've never looked for something so nonspecific before. Happy to get the full post when you're willing and able.
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Jan 27, 2021 17:32
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MJP posted:FWIW they offered a 20% salary bump. We both think she was a bit undercompensated to begin with, but it's more of a technical coach - e.g. how to build reports, query data sources, deal with the retail buyers, etc. It also involves a little more hands-off on things she didn't want to do. She's been getting all the details, and I trust her take on things - she's not going to be a process or product owner or such. I am in a similar field, and Marketing or Market Analyst should do a lot of the work if she wants to be Retail focused. It sounds like her skills translate very well into Business Strategy as well. With querying data and report building, you can filter for more technical positions.
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Jan 27, 2021 21:09
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General Business Analyst at a large corp sounds about right. Just make sure in terms of coaching responsibility that what she needs to do is clearly defined. If it's just training, that's one thing. If it's mentorship, that's another. If she's at all responsible for the performance of the people she is "coaching" that is yet another thing.
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Jan 27, 2021 22:35
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OK, I think the fault is me here - by coaching I meant "coaching how to get your VBA in Excel to stop calculating percentages above 100%, and definitely not 1,000,000,000% due to a glitch in the raw data provider" and not "how to meet your metrics and be a good corporate soldier" Further crunching on those titles puts the new salary into a better spot - we'll still sleep on it but might try to get some extra PTO if there's any residual uncertainty about the bucks.
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Jan 27, 2021 23:29
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20% increase on an already too-low salary sounds like a lowball, but it's rare for an employer to budge on an internal promotion. If she's happy where she is, great! But she could probably get paid a lot more elsewhere by shopping her newly enhanced resume around in six months or so (albeit possibly with a longer commute, etc.)
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Jan 27, 2021 23:49
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Yeah defo go for it within reason, the PTO idea is a good one - but your BATNA is pretty weak.
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Jan 28, 2021 00:40
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Anyone have any tips I can pass along to my girlfriend for a nurse manager position she is applying for? She has been working as an RN at a hospital for 5 years and is going to apply for a nurse manager role internally. I'm unsure how the negotiation process will work. As it is a public university hospital, all salaries are public and searchable in a database. Obviously we should have as much data as we can on what people make currently in that role, but I imagine she will be limited in her negotiation leverage as she currently works there. The pay band is listed publicly and lists the minimum, median zone low, median zone high, and max salary.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:51
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Javes posted:Anyone have any tips I can pass along to my girlfriend for a nurse manager position she is applying for? She has been working as an RN at a hospital for 5 years and is going to apply for a nurse manager role internally. I'm unsure how the negotiation process will work. As it is a public university hospital, all salaries are public and searchable in a database. Obviously we should have as much data as we can on what people make currently in that role, but I imagine she will be limited in her negotiation leverage as she currently works there. The pay band is listed publicly and lists the minimum, median zone low, median zone high, and max salary. Assuming she has no management experience expect the offer to be near the bottom of the band. Try to negotiate to median zone low. This is my experience with places that have defined and published bands. If the job for minimum to median low is too much for the money then don't go for it. If she wants to further move up then accept it might be a sacrifice.
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Jan 28, 2021 20:59
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