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Jumpsuit posted:I've been recruiting internally for an 18-month parental leave contract in my team and offered the role to an outstanding junior candidate who was on a 4-month contract elsewhere in the organisation. At the same time she was also offered a similar length contract role in another team alongside mine, so used that leverage with me to get to the top of the salary band. That is rough, but good for the candidate. Them negotiating that well just validates the decision!
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Apr 18, 2024 04:45
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That's kinda ballsy to play everyone against each other in the same company but obviously she had leverage
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Apr 18, 2024 05:03
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Lockback posted:That's kinda ballsy to play everyone against each other in the same company but obviously she had leverage Well played by her. But I'd keep my resume state of the art if I were her. She has them over a barrel now, and smartly turned her leverage into money, but they may get right to work mitigating that and then looking for someone cheaper for the long term. Unless this is outside the US and in a jurisdiction where "permanency" is contractual and not just a pinky promise.
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Apr 18, 2024 13:28
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Eric the Mauve posted:Well played by her. But I'd keep my resume state of the art if I were her. She has them over a barrel now, and smartly turned her leverage into money, but they may get right to work mitigating that and then looking for someone cheaper for the long term. Unless this is outside the US and in a jurisdiction where "permanency" is contractual and not just a pinky promise. At most of my client companies in the big global manufacturing space, once you're in on the permanent side, you're in. If a manager or department is looking for someone cheaper it's a contract head that comes out of a totally different space, and the contractors are the first to get let go or hosed over by any restructure. If your job gets restructured you're likely shifting to a different permanent role because permanent headcount are very hard to get and being a permanent employee has value to whatever department picks you up.
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Apr 18, 2024 13:39
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:At most of my client companies in the big global manufacturing space, once you're in on the permanent side, you're in. If a manager or department is looking for someone cheaper it's a contract head that comes out of a totally different space, and the contractors are the first to get let go or hosed over by any restructure. If your job gets restructured you're likely shifting to a different permanent role because permanent headcount are very hard to get and being a permanent employee has value to whatever department picks you up. That is a fair and valid point.
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Apr 18, 2024 14:00
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TheParadigm posted:Could you phrase it in a way that says 'I also need an annual bonus to cover the tax implications of your health plan'. Not necesarily to get them to agree, but to get them to be more forthcoming with their plan details? Turns out the allowance paid for professional certifications does not cover the one certification I have on the pathway they value, so I'm going back to them and telling them to up their offer anyway. All I wanted from this was to not go down in pay.
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Apr 18, 2024 14:41
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Eric the Mauve posted:Well played by her. But I'd keep my resume state of the art if I were her. She has them over a barrel now, and smartly turned her leverage into money, but they may get right to work mitigating that and then looking for someone cheaper for the long term. Unless this is outside the US and in a jurisdiction where "permanency" is contractual and not just a pinky promise. I wouldn't be too worried. She was on a contract and was going to go to another contact (but better) and then got offered a full time position. Getting rid of her would be very strange now that she's is full time.
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Apr 18, 2024 16:17
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I have been hiring permanently since joining my new role. Last year I hired a team of 5 up to 8, then once I filled my headcount I was given another set of problems to fix and told to hire a larger team to go fix it. I’m now being threatened with another set of interesting(tm) problems to fix. As a result, in the past few months I have done somewhere between sixty and eighty interviews as hiring manager. Here’s some stuff you can do if you’re applying for a role with someone like me to make it more likely they will go fight HR if necessary to get more resources to hire you. * Ask good questions during the interview. Be interested in the role. Curiosity is an extremely strong indicator of a good hire. * Have some cool or interesting insight about our business. At a minimum, know what we do and who our main competitors are. * Know your domain well, be able to answer technical questions. * Give concrete examples as much as possible. Lots of people can BS convincingly, but fall apart when you ask them to give examples * Push back if you disagree with something and think you can back yourself. * Ask for a second interview with me after receiving but before accepting your offer. One candidate did this and had such great questions I was impressed. There’s a limit to how much a hiring manager can actually achieve by tussling with HR, but the expected outcome isn’t zero.
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Apr 18, 2024 18:30
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Eric the Mauve posted:Well played by her. But I'd keep my resume state of the art if I were her. She has them over a barrel now, and smartly turned her leverage into money, but they may get right to work mitigating that and then looking for someone cheaper for the long term. Unless this is outside the US and in a jurisdiction where "permanency" is contractual and not just a pinky promise.  and in a university which undergoes restructures on the professional side every few years, so having permanency is a massive plus in this environment because a) fixed-term contractors are the first to go in any restructure and b) only permanent staff are entitled to redundancy payouts.
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Apr 19, 2024 05:23
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Beefeater1980 posted:I have been hiring permanently since joining my new role. Last year I hired a team of 5 up to 8, then once I filled my headcount I was given another set of problems to fix and told to hire a larger team to go fix it. I’m now being threatened with another set of interesting(tm) problems to fix. This is a good post. Thanks for sharing!
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Apr 19, 2024 07:47
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Beefeater1980 posted:
These two are so important. Take some time to do a little research and come up with some good questions. It's amazing how many people just refuse to do this and it's an immediate disadvantage vs someone who does. It may not bump you from "won't hire" to"hire", but frequently I end up with 3 "hire" candidates and 1 spot and it can help get you bumped up there.
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Apr 19, 2024 12:39
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I have also had multiple recruiters and hiring managers act surprised when I have the barest idea of what their company does and who their competitors might be. It takes five minutes on their website ahead of the first human contact (you don't even need to do it before applying!). It only takes longer if the website is completely addicted to marketing speak, which does happen.
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Apr 19, 2024 13:23
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Of course I know who your competitors are, I'm applying to them at the same!
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Apr 19, 2024 21:07
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Beats my usual attitude of "HR is pretty similar in how it needs to operate across just about every industry, there isn't anything special about you. You want someone that actually knows what they are doing or do you want to keep employing the person that convinced you the 1 hour personality test was a good idea on top of the 5 interviews and the 'quirky' questions on your application?" Amazed I don't move on to the next round more often.
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Apr 19, 2024 22:06
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Negotiation Case Study Factual Background I completed interview loops with two companies ending around the same time. After getting to the offer stage with both, I had a first negotiation call with my first choice. On the call, I named my ask of $150k and received an initial offer of $152k. Later, I got a verbal offer from my second choice of $125k + 5% bonus with a 4 day work week. I shared with my first choice that I had a competing offer that I valued at $164k (prorated to 5 days) and counter-offered with $172k. An offer came back at $166k which I accepted. Analysis Negotiation call with first choice Things that didn’t go well * Nerves - I was flustered when it turned out they wanted to move to the offer stage (it was ambiguous whether the call was going to be an offer or rejection). I accidentally underconverted the USD to CAD conversion of salaries on Levels.fyi by C$15k due to nerves as a result of time pressure. My initial ask was in the middle of the range instead of the top, again due to nerves. Things that went well * Anchoring - I based my ask on what my research showed the company was willing to pay, not on my current salary. I didn’t make any commitments to signing at my initial ask. What I did was not optimal, but I consider this as "went well" because my approach to base my ask on my research of what the company paid for this position was correct. What I should have done differently * Prepare for a negotiation call or practice a strategy of deferring negotiations in writing until after the call. * Consider my ask based on both the anticipated offer from the 2nd choice and the Levels.fyi information. In this case I knew the competing offer would be around $130k with a * 4dww but I didn’t properly consider it when calculating my 5dww ask. * Attempt to delay saying number first. My counteroffer Things that didn’t go well * Forced to share information - My low anchor meant that I had to disclose the details of my competing offer in order to justify increasing the offer. Things that went well * Leverage - I had a competing offer. * Clear communication - I used the competing offer to make a defendable valuation-- it wasn’t the only possible valuation, but it was defendable. I abstracted the details of how I valued the 4 day work week prorated to 5 day compensation and the details of compensation into a single dollar value, making it clear how the company could compete on an apples to apples basis. * Demonstrating confidence - I didn’t have to lie and presented myself confidently. Once I realized that the offer was not going to be withdrawn, I gained a lot of confidence during the remainder of the negotiation. * Understanding self - I understood my BATNA before making the counteroffer. What I should have done differently * Nothing. I closed the deal and it exceeded my BATNA. Conclusion The biggest factor in this negotiation was the fact that I had a competing offer. I do not think that I was hurt at all by my low anchor, due to the competing offer. The competing offer doesn’t even have to be formal-- at the time, the competing offer was an informal verbal offer. But you must be able to speak to it clearly and confidently. Disclosing the details of my competing offer probably limited my upside, but 1) the initial offer was already above my BATNA; and 2) the counter offer was at the top end of the range on Levels.fyi so I was satisfied. Final takeaways: * A competing offer fixes most mistakes. * The competing offer doesn’t need to be formal, but it will be taken as seriously as you present it. * Maintain a collaborative and positive tone. Make it easy for the other side to give you what you want by making a clear ask. * Know your BATNA and rely on research to know when you’ve won. Appendix A - Counteroffer code:code:
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Apr 20, 2024 05:24
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I want to emphasize one thing that isn't clearly communicated in your post: You talk about your BATNA as if the "First Choice" offer was better than your BATNA. Your BATNA with Company Rank 1 is to take Offer From Company Rank 2, which you "valued" at $164k. Your first choice, first offer was worth $152k. Your BATNA is better than first choice, first offer, BATNAs are per agreement, not per person. The alternatives you had in total were: - Work with Company Rank 1 - Work with Company Rank 2 - Abstain and continue where you're at Since both offers were better than abstention, you created a situation where each Company's Offer had a better BATNA than abstention. The importance in understanding this is that your negotiating position was awesome because of the two offers as you identified, and that each presented the BATNA to the other because they were both better than abstention. It also psyschologically forced you to confront that there was no way it was a good move to stay where you were at: abstention was the worst possible outcome. On the hiring side; people with competing offers are rare and the most frequent problem is to just get people to agree to make the substantial life change of altering employment.
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Apr 23, 2024 20:16
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As we have a range of viewpoints in here, how does everyone feel about this? https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4x4pHzr1QQ/?igsh=MTFmd3ZlNmE3ODhuag==
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Apr 24, 2024 02:07
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Only thing missing is the C-suite lying to themselves about the nature of reality TBH.
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Apr 24, 2024 02:40
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:As we have a range of viewpoints in here, how does everyone feel about this? https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4x4pHzr1QQ/?igsh=MTFmd3ZlNmE3ODhuag== Saying I lie more than sales is a new goddamn low.
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Apr 25, 2024 02:29
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Parallelwoody posted:Saying I lie more than sales is a new goddamn low. you _are_ paid to be the bad guy
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Apr 25, 2024 03:55
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"Paid"
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Apr 25, 2024 06:03
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You don't get paid?
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Apr 25, 2024 06:10
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Not well or enough to keep me from jumping at any opportunity I can get to switch fields. Least I'm honest though.
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Apr 25, 2024 08:30
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See you're not getting paid enough because you aren't lying enough. That's like 60% of the job!
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Apr 25, 2024 15:14
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I only really ever lurk in this thread but thanks to everyone's advice, I managed to secure a much better promotion than expected. I fit all of the criteria for a 2 step promotion but asked for 3 steps. I honestly didn't meet all of the requirements for 3 steps but wanted to leave room for "negotiation" so that both parties would be happy with 2 steps. My manager was an all star for really pushing upper management for the 3 step promotion but wanted to temper my expectations. Ultimately, I got the 3 step promotion which came with a $30k/year raise! I wouldn't have asked for 3 steps if it weren't for this thread. Thanks y'all.
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Apr 25, 2024 15:28
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Congratulations, that’s life changing.
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Apr 25, 2024 15:38
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Hell yeah, I love success stories in here.
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Apr 25, 2024 16:48
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Three weeks post-offer, and I get sent the same health insurance PDF for the fourth time. Thanks for telling me everything the insurance company will cover and not what you're paying for, again, I guess?
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Apr 25, 2024 17:16
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Hey all, just received a couple offers this week after a grueling few months of interviewing as a product manager with 10+ years of experience. One offer is for a role that I'm not too excited about (CS tools) but has a title of a Product Lead (also the title I was laid off from while in FAANG), while the other is for a Senior PM but a product area that has more potential for growth and domain ownership. Total comp is comparable between them but I'm a bit worried that moving to a title of Senior PM will look like a downgrade on my resume (it's technically lower in the PM hierarchy). Does anyone have experience negotiating on title alone? I know that the job description originally outlined all of this, and I was aware of how it might be perceived when applying, but now that I have offers I'm curious if there's any leverage I can use to my advantage. Thanks!
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Apr 26, 2024 19:37
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You can, but it's less fungible than money. They may not have that title, or they may be structured differently. Personally in my experience "Senior PM" vs "Product Lead" seems less indicative of what you're doing than a description would, so I'd say don't sweat it too much but you can always ask. It's also possible they don't have a "Product Lead" position and they might just say "You can call yourself that on linkedin it just won't be in the HR system". I'd probably frame it as "I am considering between these roles, the title is something that separates them at this point. If I could have title XYZ I would be ready to sign immediately." This gives you some room they may try to toss more money at you to make you feel better.
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Apr 26, 2024 19:46
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Just finished ~8 months of being strung along. I am only half heartedly looking to leave so not a huge deal. Ultimately they said they were apprehensive about upsetting my current employer since they want to get work with them. I guess at least I got 2 very nice dinners out of it.
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Apr 26, 2024 21:37
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spwrozek posted:Just finished ~8 months of being strung along. I am only half heartedly looking to leave so not a huge deal. Ultimately they said they were apprehensive about upsetting my current employer since they want to get work with them. I guess at least I got 2 very nice dinners out of it. I had a buddy in this position a few years ago. Better they recognize this now than after you give your notice and your current employer calls to complain.
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Apr 26, 2024 21:41
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Lockback posted:You can, but it's less fungible than money. They may not have that title, or they may be structured differently. Personally in my experience "Senior PM" vs "Product Lead" seems less indicative of what you're doing than a description would, so I'd say don't sweat it too much but you can always ask. Great suggestions, thanks!
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Apr 27, 2024 03:34
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Are the companies of equal size? Titles in product management can vary wildly depending on the org, and Lead isn't too common amongst the APM-PM-SPM-PPM-GPM standard titling. As a hiring manager I certainly wouldn't care if you went from Product Lead at Company A to Senior Product Manager at Company B. They vary so much that Product Manager could range from a glorified PO/scrum master all the way to the de facto head of product (i.e. the ONLY product person at the start-up). If you get it, great, but Lead as a position isn't that universal to matter
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Apr 27, 2024 15:12
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I have kicked off my job search! So far I have sent (all last night): 3 Spec enquiries directly to companies I am interested in (with referrals from people I know there) 1 response to job ad at a company I am interested in 2 enquiries to recruiters Planning on 1 more spec enquiry and contacting 2 more recruiters Have heard back from one recruiter already this morning. She asked *the question* but I managed to push it away with wording along the lines of "I'm looking to get all the opportunities on the table to compare" which she accepted. Thanks for the guidance on this thread! My BATNA is quite high - I am looking to change because I have been at my current employer for around 10 years and the longer I stay the harder it is to move, and this point in my career is a good time to move due to experience level being high enough to be a good hire (have necessary quals etc), without being so high that I am pricing my self out of the general market (I am still cheap enough to be an "impulse buy" in job market terms"). This means that there are no major push factors, I am happy to stay for another 6 months to a year if I have to. I am in a specialised area so there aren't that many employers, but I am aiming to get myself on the market and see who bites.
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Apr 29, 2024 09:40
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I work for a small animal hospital that was privately owned until June of last year when it was bought by two of the associate veterinarians with backing from a corp that owns about 30 other hospitals. We had all been underpaid, and understaffed so part of the purchase was raises for existing staff and the hiring of new staff. At the time, I was very happy with my bump - I was promoted to lead tech, and got a 20 percent raise. I just found out though that one of the new hires at the time, who exaggerated her credentials, is making more than me. This is a person who technically works below me (lead tech is in fairness not like, a super prestigious title at a small hospital), and isn't licensed like I am, despite saying she was. I've also been with the hospital since it opened. A) Literally until the second I found that out, I was quite happy with my pay, and feel I am well compensated for what I do B) I technically shouldn't know what she makes, and have always sort of had the philosophy that I don't wanna know what other people make, or let them know what I make. C) I'm annoyed, but not enough to leave a job that I like with clients and coworkers that I like. D) This is, like I said, a small hospital. I have drinks with the office manager and head doctor most nights, so I feel extraordinarily awkward talking money with them, versus some giant faceless corporation. I feel like, on paper, I'm right to feel raw about this, but I have no clue how to approach it as I'm not willing to walk over it, and am ultimately happy, but man, this has been a huge shift in how valued I feel, and it's fairly demoralizing. Do I mention it ahead of my yearly review? Let it go, since I was previously satisfied with my pay?
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May 1, 2024 02:47
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Slugworth posted:I work for a small animal hospital that was privately owned until June of last year when it was bought by two of the associate veterinarians with backing from a corp that owns about 30 other hospitals. We had all been underpaid, and understaffed so part of the purchase was raises for existing staff and the hiring of new staff. find another job paying more than the other person makes.
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May 1, 2024 02:54
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leper khan posted:find another job paying more than the other person makes.
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May 1, 2024 02:58
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I mean, yeah, maybe you're being petty. Hard for us to tell. But that's irrelevant, really. It's not really about someone else making more than you per se--the pertinent newly discovered fact here is that your skills might actually be worth more on the market than your employer is paying you. You might as well start interviewing elsewhere and see if that's so or not, at least.
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May 1, 2024 03:00
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A) So its good that you feel well, remove the other person from the equation. Are you paid market rate? Do you have a BATNA that is significantly more? Is it possible this new person is just overpaid? B) Don't think like this. Sharing salary is fine. C)Ok, so it sounds like they are paying you properly. D)But then this sounds like a good deal for your bosses. So ultimately if you don't want to talk about pay and don't want to leave you're probably going to be underpaid. If you don't think you'll leave I wouldn't make a big thing about it but you can probably talk about wanting a pay review, but since they just gave you +20% they probably will ignore you.
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May 1, 2024 03:05
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