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I think the better strategy is to go to your boss and diplomatically ask for more money without necessarily mentioning the offer. That way if she/he says no, you have a BATNA. If it's a yes, you can take it or tell the new company they'll need to up their offer.
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Jan 14, 2018 04:08
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Agree with sp3million. If you have an offer for $X, then you can tell your boss you need to meet. Tell them when you want to meet by, giving yourself enough time to still accept the offer. Tell them that you want your compensation corrected to $X. If they ask why $X, tell them that you've done research on the market and that you have determined your market value is $X. If they're not receptive to that, you can try getting more explicit and saying that you have another offer, but you've basically already done that once. If your boss is receptive, tell them when you need to hear an answer back by. Basically you give them the opportunities to match in a timely fashion, without actually saying "Do this or I leave for 'Y'." If they don't meet your requirements, you leave.
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Jan 14, 2018 14:59
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LochNessMonster posted:Get an offer at a different firm and tell them to give you the number you want or you’re out. Followup on all of this, since compensation/promotions were announced the other day. Looks like A and B were right. I got the promotion to VP, will be designated as working for the IB (IB VPs make more than PB VPs on average), and the pay bump will be over the next few years as opposed to all at once so when I'm up for ED my salary will be at the proper range for it (which talking to other people in the company is SOP). I was emotionally prepared to make the case for VP next year, so it came as a bit of a surprise. A happy surprise, though. Now I have to change offices which I'm looking forward to, actually.
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Jan 14, 2018 18:00
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Eric the Mauve, eriddy, Ultimate Mango, spf3million, and Dwight Eisenhower - thank you for your responses! I appreciate the feedback and feel much better about strategy going into this situation. I'll add this little tidbit since I thought it was an interesting part of the process: when I had my initial phone screen with HR they gave me the min/midpoints of the salary range within the first 5 minutes and asked if that was 'in the ballpark', so to speak. I hadn't encountered this yet in any of my interviews so it was a bit surprising. I gave the boilerplate response about making sure we are a good fit for each other, etc. but essentially said it's something we can work with. The range basically tracks the level above me at my current company so it's pretty easy to infer roughly where the top of the range sits. With this in my back pocket, I feel pretty comfortable throwing out the first number (in due time, of course, if we get to that point) to try and anchor myself to the high end of the range.
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Jan 14, 2018 19:13
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Hello, I started at a company a year ago in an entry level contracts department position for a company that does work on industrial electrical systems. We are strictly b2b and about 1/3 of the Fortune 500 are our clients. The job consisted mostly of data entry into our ERP, but also a lot of spreadsheet work and reading contracts for language @ 45k/yr. Minimal decision-making but there was some. It included a few other responsibilities such as recording commissions for sales people and light collections work. The company has seen steady growth for quite some time and as such, the Sales dept has grown with it. It had 20 sales people as of last Spring, when they decided to hire a Sales Operations Manager, which they recruited outside of the company for. So they hired a new guy, and he did a terrible job. Sales operations declined drastically. Quotes weren't getting out on time or going out with errors. Sometimes orders weren't processed correctly, and since our work is done mostly on a contractual basis, we renew existing clients' contracts ~3 months before they're set to expire. Work had slowed so much that the previous 3 month buffer and was down to 1 month. Needless to say, it was a bit of a disaster and the guy was canned. So they called me one day in my cubicle and asked if I would be interested in a new position. Apparently I had built a good reputation there for my work even though I was still fairly new. The position would have some of the responsibilities taken out of it, so I could kind of ease into the job. I had never managed anything before, so instead of having me go gung-ho into managing operations for 20ish people, they gave me control of our Sales Support dept, which consists of 4 people. What this dept does is assist the salespeople with their quotes, generate documents for them, fulfill information requests, data maintenance for our accounts in our ERP & CRM platforms. They offered me 60k/yr. I knew that they really needed a fix quickly and I could have been an rear end in a top hat and negotiated for more, but decided it would be better to humbly accept and prove that I could do a good job, then ask for more later. The CEO of the company said that he'd like to see me do well in the new position, and that my work would eventually be "a 6 figure job." So we're 6 months in and things have gone exceedingly well. We're getting quotes out really quickly and accurately, we're back up to our 3 month buffer for sending out renewals. Very few mistakes have been made from our dept, and all of the Salespeople have said that they're thankful for the way we were able to turn things around for them. The crew that i directly manage has been working hard and they get a lot of compliments from the Salespeople. Our work has been pointed out in meetings as fabulous, excellent, and tight. Sales are up, and the forecast for this year is good. In all, the company did 32M in revenue last year. >11M was from the Sales Dept. I expect sales to be higher than that this year barring economic downturn. In the 6 months since starting, my responsibilities have grown greatly. I do weekly and monthly sales and call reporting on all the reps, I prepare lots of complex spreadsheets for our proposals. I taught myself SQL this last year and use it regularly to craft queries to find information for the business and for our reps. Every quote that goes out to clients is generated by my dept. I'm the last person to check quotes for accuracy before they go out to clients. I process every single order that comes through the Sales Dept, which basically means setting up client and sale order in our ERP before sending it to the contracts dept. I'm also in charge of managing each Sales Rep's account list, of which they have 5-700 accounts to call/work on. Recently they asked for my dept to do prospecting/mining lists for more leads. Basically I'm in charge of all of the Sales Operations now except for hiring/firing and a monthly account review where the CEO of the company and I sit with the reps to go over their monthly results to see what progress they've made or will be making on their accounts. I'm usually the first level of escalation that our Sales Reps go to when something goes wrong with an order, and recently the CEO stated in a meeting with our Account Management dept (customer service dept) to escalate to me if they have any questions about current or incoming contracts. I also do calculations on how much to sell our services for when clients want to pro-rate their contract lengths. Today, I went in and told the CEO, "I was hoping that you'd consider raising my salary now that I feel my responsibilities have grown greatly since starting the new position. It does not have to be now, but it is something I would appreciate in the near future." He said "Ok". He didn't seem happy, but also not mad that I asked. I think he probably expected it at some point, but who's to say? CEO is also sole owner of the company. Much to my entertainment, the guy that got fired left his offer letter in what is now my office. His salary was 90k/yr. I know that skill-wise, I'm a superior worker to him based on what I saw in the company through his tenure. The only place he trumped me was in years of work experience. It seems crazy, but in my short time there, I have Salespeople who now call me "boss", and say they would "do anything" for me since I work hard for them. I tell them I'm not their boss, and that it's my pleasure to do the work. And I've heard through the grapevine that the CEO (my direct manager) thinks highly of my work. I don't want to come off as seeking too much for having only been there a year. On the flip-side, I do truly believe that my work is worth quite a bit more than my current rate now that my responsibilities have grown and the company moved from a negative to positive direction since I was given the new position. My question is, does 110k/yr seem outlandish for a job that manages the daily operations of a dept that's on track to do ~12M in sales this year? To iterate, I'm now responsible for almost all administrative tasks required to manage the entire sales dept except for hiring/firing. Second question, is it ever ok to disclose that I know the previous guy's salary, or is that something I just never, ever talk about?
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Jan 16, 2018 03:53
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My gut tells me that a) you're not doing the job that your predecessor was and b) you've only been doing it for six months, so asking for roughly 2x your current salary seems bold. I would not disclose that you know your predecessors salary.
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Jan 16, 2018 11:41
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Calm posted:Hello, A few quick questions for you: - Of the tangible advice we repeat over and over, what of it have you followed so far? - Of the advice we've provided broadly, when have you seen a discussion relating compensation to departmental performance? - How does someone else's compensation reflect how valuable you are, and reflect how much leverage you do or do not have with the CEO of your company?
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Jan 16, 2018 15:13
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:My gut tells me that a) you're not doing the job that your predecessor was and b) you've only been doing it for six months, so asking for roughly 2x your current salary seems bold. Yeah. In fact, I'd expect you to be making less than the predecessor (in spite of your better performance), because they were paying for his work experience, and his role was probably broader than yours. In fact, we know that because you tell us that instead of managing 20 people, you're managing 4. The narrowing of the scope also makes it easier for you to excel. You're overly focused on a subset of numbers. You're managing 4 people. Last year, in spite of the bad guy who was there for.. I can't quite follow, but 6 months? your department did $11M in sales. This year, you're apparently on track/expected to do $12M in sales. 10% Y/Y growth isn't exactly stellar, and you can only claim credit for a fraction of that. A bunch of anecdotes doesn't give you data to negotiate on, and knowing your predecessor's comp doesn't really help you negotiate. You can ask for more because your responsibilities have grown, but asking for them to double your salary 6 months after giving you a 33% raise is going to be a really hard sell.
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Jan 16, 2018 15:39
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Just an idea, but at this point would it be better to back off a bit. Maybe ask for a small bump for the increase in responsibilities and solid performance. Be ready with a list of exactly the extra responsibilities over and above what you initially signed on for, because the original pay bump already theoretically covers a bunch of the extra you're doing now. But tell your boss flat out you want old guy's job and ask what it would take to get there. That shows you want to grow with them and puts it in his head that he should get ready to give you more (both compensation and responsibilities) or you might find something elsewhere along those lines. I agree with Dwight though, that without an offer from elsewhere you don't really have much leverage and you don't have a true grasp of your market value.
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Jan 16, 2018 15:51
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Thank you all for the input, very nice of you to respond. After thinking awhile, consulting w/ others and seeing your suggestions, I've realized I was being a bit greedy / overvaluing myself probably. When the time for discussion comes, I'm going to scale back my expectations and shoot for something more reasonable. You are correct in not using another's compensation to relate to self-value. That was an idea I've been kicking around in my head, about how much to consider the value of another's compensation when determining your own value. Obviously the company was paying him 90 to complete tasks which he did not deliver on. So just because I'm able to deliver and he wasn't doesn't mean I should think that I deserve anything more than that. Thank you again.
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Jan 17, 2018 22:12
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I am looking for new positions internally after being strung along for a promotion. I've been in this role for 2+ years and am bored as poo poo. We support supplier quality performing a function that I foresee being axed in 5 years max. My boss called me outside of business hours last night to say that the promotion went through and I should hear something "very soon". I'm not interested in staying long term, promotion or not (unless they wow me. I'd like to start my own business and my current role has good work/life balance to start a side project). I had one promising interview for a position last week and an interview for another different role scheduled next Tuesday but no offers in hand. If I actually get a promotion in this job before an offer for another, is it in poor taste to negotiate a raise here and then continue looking to bounce? My boss is already aware that I am looking for alternatives.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:23
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a dingus posted:I am looking for new positions internally after being strung along for a promotion. I've been in this role for 2+ years and am bored as poo poo. We support supplier quality performing a function that I foresee being axed in 5 years max. Honestly, the best time to bounce is shortly after a title change. Most people will understand.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:12
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Yeah, take the salary bump. Hell, charitably estimate what it will be and start negotiating with it right now - we're talking about the next year's pay, no dishonesty there.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:15
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He actually came to me today... I thought I'd have a couple weeks to think it over. It was a 10% bump but still about 5% below what my market rate is from my own research and 10% below what the midpoint is for that labor grade. I am highly regarded within my team so I thanked him and asked if there was anything we could do to meet the midpoint number. He's going back to his boss and HR to talk. The boss said that I won't be offered much more than the salary given in the promotion if I change roles within the company because of some garbage HR rules but we'll see. Fingers crossed I get an offer in the coming weeks. The salary adjustment won't take place until April but he wanted to share it with me to persuade me from leaving.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:23
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I just received an offer from a company and want to double check where I'm going with it. The agency I was with closed a month ago and has left the market I work in oversaturated with employees with similar credentials. I've had a half dozen interviews and got an offer today from one company I felt pretty comfortable with. I got some of the details in a phone call and asked for two days to think things over. I emailed the other places I interviewed informing them I would be accepting an offer on Thursday and encouraged them to reach out to me with an offer before then if they are interested, but I'm not holding my breath. So my BATNA is pretty weak. The interview process included a group interview with the entire team and apparently they have turned down around a good number of people before saying they want me to join their team. The offer is pretty fair for the market and I don't know if I can get anything else out of them as far as pay goes, plus its a relatively small company and has been growing. Assuming I don't get a second offer, the one area I think I have some leeway is that I'm anticipating a second license in a few months which would drive up my earning power. I plan on calling back HR tomorrow to get a few more details about the position (schedule and insurance provider) and I'm thinking about dropping my concern about earning this license in the near future and wanting a raise with it. It is a license that absolutely increases my earning power and abilities in the field, but may or may not specifically provide them any advantage or incentive. Unless I get a second offer tomorrow, I'm not willing to walk away from this one, but I figure I might as well ask if they're willing to agree to a raise once I get that second license, and if they agree to ask for it in writing.
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Feb 7, 2018 08:30
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How does the license change things in terms of what actions you will take? If they say no, will you still take the job? I don't think it hurts to ask but...I'm guessing the answer is no. Maybe you can get a token raise or something but I doubt it will be significant. I would have no qualms about working somewhere for a few months and then leaving if I am suddenly able to get a bunch more somewhere else - after all, they'd fire you the minute it's profitable to do so, even if you just relocated to work there. I understand if realistically you won't want to bother though.
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Feb 7, 2018 18:10
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I actually think it DOES hurt to ask in this case, at least in the way you framed it ("I'm going to be worth more in four months than I am now, so I want more now") because if the HR rep has any negotiating savvy whatsoever they'll instantly know you're bluffing because you're looking for a job now, not in four months. It just reveals that you don't know how to negotiate, and framing it that way also comes off as a thinly veiled threat to start looking elsewhere in four months, and that's nothing but bad for you. If you're satisfied with the offer, accept it. If you're not, say "I'm excited to join your team but I need $X more to close this deal." Just be aware you'll never get a significant raise from your starting salary so be sure you're really satisfied with it (i.e. accepting the offer is better than your BATNA) Didn't you mention this upcoming license in your interviews?
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Feb 7, 2018 21:53
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I did mention it and he seemed interested. Anyway things got really weird lately. I got the previously mentioned offer from company A on Tuesday and asked for a day or two to decide. They got back to me and I verbally accepted the offer this morning. After that company B who i previously interviewed with reached out to me asking for an interview. I arranged that interview for today. Then the manager from company A leaves me a voicemail saying "I know we made you an offer, but I just wanted to talk to you to be sure we were a good fit and about some concerns that came up in the interview". I tried to call him back later to get details but he left the office. I went ahead with the interview with company B which went very well. I told them about an offer from another agency but not that I accepted it. After the interview I was told that they want me on the team and will make a formal offer after my references clear, hopefully tomorrow. This is a strange situation to me. Normally I would never go back on a job after accepting it, but that voicemail from company A is making me think twice about accepting it. That they would make an offer then appear to have second thoughts is very unprofessional to me. Company A is a small up and coming company that felt comfortable, and Company B is a larger company that may pay more and definitely will have better benefits. Thoughts on how to handle this?
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Feb 9, 2018 01:18
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Macaroni Surprise posted:This is a strange situation to me. Normally I would never go back on a job after accepting it, but that voicemail from company A is making me think twice about accepting it. That they would make an offer then appear to have second thoughts is very unprofessional to me. Company A is a small up and coming company that felt comfortable, and Company B is a larger company that may pay more and definitely will have better benefits. Maybe they found out about you taking an interview with the other company and are pissy about it? People who give cryptic messages like that piss me off, it just means that they don't care enough about you to phrase the message in a way that won't make you worry about stuff all night long. All you can do is wait for the offer from B, and wait to hear what the guy's problem at A is. If the guy doesn't apologize for leaving you a lovely message and then disappearing it would sure go a long way to making me not want to work for him though.
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Feb 9, 2018 01:36
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I mean I'm waiting to see what the hell is going on but after that voicemail 95% I'm done with company A. Dunno what industry this is but my spidey sense is tingling but the HR people at company A and company B know each other well. Also I recall that you wrote this yesterday: Macaroni Surprise posted:The interview process included a group interview with the entire team and apparently they have turned down around a good number of people before saying they want me to join their team. And it makes me think something weird is going on with that company. Might be a vicious power struggle upstairs ongoing as we speak, which would be something you 100% do not want to step into if you can help it. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 02:51
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I agree with Droo and Eric the Mauve, that's a pretty sketchballs move. See what you can get with B. Leaving a voicemail like that and then not being accessible afterwards is bad communication. It's bad communication in quasi-rescinding the offer. It's bad communication in giving you vague, unspecific feedback AFTER an offer was already extended and after you accepted. If he needs to do this it should happen before offers go out. It's bad communication in directing you to respond one way and then not being accessible when you respond that way. Short of a really bad offer from B I'd take my ball and go there, and tell A exactly why they're missing out.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:00
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Either way keep us posted. I'm curious what Company A will say.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:09
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The simplest explanation I can think of (and the simplest is usually the likeliest) is a manager (or HR person, if HR has hiring authority in this company) gave the green light to hire him, and after the offer went out some higher manager who has their own, probably nepotistic and/or sycophantic, candidate in mind overruled them.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:55
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Thats the same explanation a friend came up with. My other thought was that HR jumped the gun in extending the offer. I'm not very upset over the manager not being available to talk. He left me the voicemail at 2:30, and I called back at 4:30. Things come up. I'm more upset about being given an offer, contacting other places I interviewed and withdrawing my application, then learning that maybe they shouldn't have made an offer. edit: Oh one thing I did well was after being informed by company B that they are interested and plan to make an offer, they asked what the offer from company A was and I declined to give them it, asking what their offer may be. Company A offered 50k, and Company B gave a range from 50-60k so I'm definitely glad I didn't say anything. Macaroni Surprise fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 05:22
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The dangerous thing is, even if it ends up with them honoring the original offer, now you know that someone in the company--and someone with at least enough pull to be able to provoke that bullshit second call--doesn't want you there. I'd avoid that kind of situation if at all possible. Good chance the knife's in your back before you've even had time to survey the political situation.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:24
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I arranged my references with Company B and left a message with the manager towards the end of the day, but didn't hear back and don't have the offer in hand. I spoke with the manager from Company A. He said that he was concerned that I did not seem enthusiastic when accepting the offer. He also mentioned that he had concerns about me being too rigid. I said that I was very excited to join the agency but was confused by hearing doubts from the company after being given an offer. He reiterated that he wants to be sure we're a fit. I told him that I have another agency that has expressed interest and that I'm concerned about this interaction. He stated that he does want me on his team and told me he needs a firm answer by monday morning. I'm unsure on if I hear from company A before company B if I should accept the position with company A. After all this I would much rather work with company B. I'd prefer not to accept the job with company A then go back on it if company B gives an offer later, but I also don't want to decline the offer from company A to have company B not come through. Things there led me to believe that I'll be getting an offer as soon as they clear my references. Macaroni Surprise fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Feb 10, 2018 |
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Feb 10, 2018 03:35
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Accept the offer with A and jump ship to B if possible. Company A has already shown to be untrustworthy and sketchy, put yourself first.
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Feb 10, 2018 14:54
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Frankly at this point I would have no qualms about telling Company A the straight truth.
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Feb 10, 2018 16:53
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Your BATNA is weak and there's no reason to say more than he has. You call on Monday and accept the offer, and then if b has a better offer you call out of it and explain why to HR while blocking calls from the manager.
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Feb 10, 2018 22:48
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a dingus posted:Accept the offer with A and jump ship to B if possible. Company A has already shown to be untrustworthy and sketchy, put yourself first. Yeah - if firing you a week after hiring you was obviously profitable for the company, they would not have think for five minutes before firing you. Don't show loyalty when it isn't reciprocated.
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Feb 11, 2018 00:32
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I got an email from Company B stating: We really appreciate your eagerness to become a part of the program. We will not have made our decision by that time. We will need another week or so. I understand this is a great opportunity for you and I encourage you to take it. Good luck and I will keep your profile available for future hires. So tomorrow I think I'll email him back and state that I understand this has been a difficult situation due to timing but I am still very much interested if he decides to extend an offer in the near future. I'll also call company A and accept their offer. I feel like I hosed this whole process up.
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Feb 11, 2018 02:41
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Nah, you didn't gently caress it up. Company B is probably going to hire someone else anyway so accept Company A's offer and keep looking for your next job, because I'd lay 5 to 1 that place is going to turn out to be a horror show to work at. And you never know, Company B might actually come back with an offer next week which you should not hesitate to accept. And if (gods forbid) Company A winds up pulling the offer, that would be a GOOD THING because if that were to actually happen then you will have dodged a huge bullet and remaining unemployed is preferable to working for them. e: On a theory/macro level, just as an aside, I talk to people all the time who freak out because it's been three days since their interview and they haven't heard anything yet. Good companies take their time hiring for any position above entry level, because it's REALLY important to do your diligence and make a good hire. In fact it's a bit of a red flag if I interview for a job and get an offer one or two days later, no matter how awesome an interview I was--it likely means the company's desperate to fill the position yesterday and is offering it to the first not-obviously-unqualified person they talk to. Good companies that are capable of thinking past ten minutes from now fire fast and hire slow. Unfortunately most companies suck, and most companies do just the opposite--fire slow, oh no we're understaffed!, hire fast. I'll hang up and listen Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 02:44
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With the way that letter was phrased, should I reach out and say I'm still interested? My concerns are that because of this whole mess company A thinks I'm not dedicated and company B knows if I take an offer later I left another commitment.
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Feb 11, 2018 03:10
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I would just say thank you and I look forward to hearing from you, while following the plan outlined by the others here.
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Feb 11, 2018 03:14
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Is there a conventional wisdom here for how to evasively answer application form questions that explicitly ask for your salary goal? I'm three for three for getting these even before a screening interview and I expect I will see a lot more of them.quote:* What is your compensation expectation? Please be as specific as possible. I checked back and saw that most responses around this were questions asked in phone interviews, and not so much web forms. Seems that in a phone interview, you can reply with a question and followups. A form question gives you one shot at an answer. 18 Character Limit fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 18:11
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Depending on what the form allows and what you think the effect will be, you can: leave blank, put 0, put a big number, put text like "to be discussed"
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Feb 12, 2018 18:15
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18 Character Limit posted:Is there a conventional wisdom here for how to evasively answer application form questions that explicitly ask for your salary goal? I'm three for three for getting these even before a screening interview and I expect I will see a lot more of them. "Will Discuss." I think we're moving pretty rapidly toward a world where, short of executive level jobs, it becomes simply an out-and-out requirement everywhere to name your number before you'll even be interviewed. Most HR people (like most people in general) are lazy and it makes their job easier. Relevant: 
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Feb 12, 2018 19:02
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A recruiter tried to tell me it was also mandatory everywhere that you disclose your last salary. Also, even though they can find it when they run your finances it's "for trust" and "in this age where culture is big employers need to know they can trust you". I feel bad for the gullible idiot that believes that one.
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Feb 12, 2018 19:17
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I feel bad for the shareholders of companies who insist on hiring such gullible idiots.
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Feb 12, 2018 19:30
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"run your finances" lol
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Feb 12, 2018 21:23
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