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And how empty a lot of apartment buildings are getting right now.
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Sep 9, 2020 22:56
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Well the recruiter said it was on the low side so now you know to hold hard there if they try to go any lower.
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Sep 10, 2020 16:44
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Naming a number first doesn't have to be a bad thing, in negotiation it's called "anchoring" and there's tons of research to indicate its better to anchor than have the other party start first and anchor too low. Tibalt's example is a good example where he got played because he was already at a disadvantage and didn't know the ranges to begin with. If you're being pressed for a number, do the research and find a number at or above the top of their range so you anchor there. It really isn't hard to find this info in this day and age, you just have to hunt for it. Infinotize posted:Is this in a state where this is illegal? What state is it illegal to ask for a desired salary during the interview process?
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Sep 10, 2020 19:04
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Not a Children posted:You need to have a good alternative for if they say "nah" or else you have no leverage No, he means to the new contractor. They won't really care if he goes since he's part of the old guard. "If you don't hire me I'll walk" isn't exactly a threat.... Your leverage is your experience and to some extent whatever the handover is. I think your approach of finding them right away and being like "Hey, I'm a guy who can do the job at the already-set rate". They should want you identified ASAP so they can use you as part of the conversion. That's if they care, they may not in which case it's find-a-job time.
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Sep 10, 2020 23:42
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Betazoid posted:Bingo... In a previous role, I was scouted by another firm that won the recompete. I ultimately didn't want to go with them because they were a rinky-dink outfit that I suspected won on lowest price technically acceptable (LPTA), which was laughable given my current employer, who was as mickey-mouse as they came. My apologies, Miss Chick. I did the opposite and stayed put (years and years ago) at a government contractor as the holder shuffled. It was fine, pretty easy. There was 0 room for negotiation unless you think you can move into a different role that is open/opens up. It was kinda crappy in that it was a new boss but still the same job including the same little stuff you end up collecting and being responsible for if you've been somewhere a while. If I recall I got a pay bump but I think it was entirely because we were picking up more work and I got reclassified. There was 0 input from any of us who stayed on any of that. So yeah, mostly the leverage sucks but if you like the job you can probably keep it if you start talking to the new bosses now.
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Sep 11, 2020 05:05
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:We've rehashed this multiple times in this thread, but apparently we need to one more time: Trying to apply a "One Solution Fits All" is universally a bad idea (thread title is awful advice) and a really good way to get people into a disadvantaged situation. Saying something like "Understanding pay bands and market rates" is not "hitting a home run" it's pretty basic and not terribly difficult. Anchoring is a really basic negotiating tactic, acting like it's some advance mojo that only elites can use is ridiculous. In general the advice of "Don't give a number" is patently worse than "Spend some time learning about market rates so you can effectively navigate a negotiation." That can be done in 30 minutes, and people can even ask advice here! The "Don't ever say a number" advice also implies you should walk away from a negotiation if they don't give a number which seems like flatout dangerous advice during a global recession. I think if you're at a knowledge disadvantage waiting for a number can be smart, but taking it to an extreme just goes around and hurts the very inexperienced people you say you want to help. This thread has some really weird "THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO NEGOTIATE" mantra sometimes.
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Sep 14, 2020 16:41
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If your thinking $27 is reasonable but on the lower end a good target is 25%+, which usually is enough to push them but not high enough to get rejected outright. In this case that'd be something like $33 or so, which isn't going to get you told to gently caress off. If $27 to you isn't in the ballpark, then you need to have a good idea as to what is. But they already shot out their range so the next move is yours unless you think you should just walk away. Dik Hz posted:Also anchoring is a bad strategy when the other party is already anchored. If the company employs 5 other computer touchers, they're probably already anchored on the lowest paid of those people. Likewise if they're replacing someone. They probably are already anchored on that number less 10% or so. This is an argument that letting the other person name a number first is a bad move. If they are already low, starting the negotiation by letting them start with their low number is worse than starting at your higher number. If it's in the companies best interest to start the negotiation at the lowest number then you should try to not let that happen.
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Sep 14, 2020 20:13
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Parallelwoody posted:Thanks for that target, I'll keep it in mind for the future. That is a really, really rough "I have no other information but it's a reasonable starting point", lots of industries you can push things higher, some situations you are banging your head against an iron door. But even if my answer is "I cannot go a penny higher than my last offer", a 25% uplift isn't going to kill your candidacy 99% of the time, and it's a big enough ask that you have some wiggle room to get a meaningful raise out of it. Again, if you really need $40 an hour, say $40 (or actually say $50 and try to get down to $40), but if you're just trying to push the envelope that is some quick and dirty advice that fits lots of situations. Dik Hz posted:I'm beginning to suspect that you don't know what anchoring means. Anchoring is a solution to the "First Offer" dilemma. So once someone throws out an offer, you're not anchoring anymore, you're just countering. I dunno if your working on different definition but this is the Harvard definition which seems pretty universal. And countering is fine and important, but its a different thing. The advice "Don't negotiate salary too early" is also generally good (iun that case you'd need to be real confident about the ranges available) but also not "Never say a number". fourwood posted:You’re not wrong, it’s just that people seem to be prone to saying a “higher number” that is still even lower than the low number the company would offer out of the gate. Right, which when you are going in completely blind keeping your mouth shut is the right move. My argument though is instead of literally titling this thread "Never say a number" we should be doing more to encourage people to LEARN a little bit about what the market offers instead of assuming whatever the company tells you is fair and trying to go up from there. As part of job hunting we should normalize spending time finding out what your worth and encouraging people to do that instead of assuming everyone is dumb and can't pick out a number. It can cost people money.
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Sep 14, 2020 20:57
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Dik Hz posted:I think you're being deliberately obtuse. The meat of my post was "Hiring decision makers are most likely already anchored on a number". You completely glossed over that. I don't see why name calling is needed but I'm working off the normal definition which is in terms of when you give an offer is an anchor. I guess I'll drop it since its gotten in the gutter.
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Sep 15, 2020 01:17
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Nthing the "I have personally had conversations about money with my employer and had it work out fine, and I've had people who have came to me about their pay and had it work out fine." If you think you are a good performer and have some trust in your boss I think its in your best interest. 1. Don't compare yourself to other people or new hires, it's a losing game and becomes a personal thing. Comparing yourself to the pay band or to how you've picked up more responsibility is a much better idea. 2. Don't get emotional on it, even if your boss does. We tie pay to our worth as a person and it can make us act emotionally, that won't help. 3. Understand that these things frequently take time, managers rarely have the power to just unilaterally change salary. Out of cycle adjustments are not uncommon but usually require signoff from executives and HR. but 4. If you get pushback beyond feeling out or significant delay tactics recognize those as your answer. The best course there is politely agree and thank your manager for the consideration and then go looking for something else or putting a plan together for jumping in the future.
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Dec 12, 2020 16:33
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Hadlock posted:For bay area startup, what does tech lead mean in terms of career progression, salary, options etc, especially at a pre IPO company How we do it is lead is a role, not a position, but it basically means you're a principal or if you're not you have a straight path there. So the bump sounds about right if your baselining off "experienced senior". We usually don't expect our leads to manage, it's usually decision making and the kind of prioritizing that happens a level below manager/pm. For sure teams it involves a lot of mentoring, depends on the team. It's also usually a path to management but also architect. So kinda a path to regardless I guess. I have in the past used leads as junior managers, but that has more to do with working at places without good pathways. If someone is ready to take on more leadership but need to start with a small team I've used lead to sneak in an in between promotion to lead (usually as principal). It's usually better doing that than waiting for a manager role to open up.
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Aug 6, 2021 05:13
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Change the expectation before the interview. You don't want to walk into an interview and declare you actually want a different job (title).
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Aug 18, 2021 02:34
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That's an absurd UK IT salary, congrats.
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Aug 27, 2021 19:17
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Isn't them giving you the floor number them giving you a number first already?
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Oct 5, 2021 01:11
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Phraggah posted:I guess that's a good point actually. If it helps, usually the "floor" is 75-80% of a target salary, a "normal" new hire ceiling is 100% and an absolute ceiling is 120%. So 125% of their floor might be a ceiling and you probably won't get laughed out of the room for going ~50% above the floor. This is all if you give a poo poo and want this job, and I have no idea they might just be throwing out random numbers. But that's probably some reasonable guidelines to make the next move, if it fits in your general perception of the market.
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Oct 5, 2021 01:34
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Grumpwagon posted:
Hadlock's advice is good. I'd also note: 1. Off-cycle takes time. It's sometimes faster finding a new job. 2. Unlike new job, having a number in mind is important. Being vague or leaving it up to management will mean a 25% adjustment becomes 15% becomes 10% as it moves up the chain. It's better to have a realistic number in mind and build in the fact that it will probably get whittled down. It's unlikely to be a back and forth negotiation. Usually it's a fire and forget kind of thing. 3. I have never worked anywhere where a manager has authorization to raise salary on their own. It usually has to go up to the org VP or even higher. So think at that level when you bring it up. 4. Timing matters. Is your group doing a bunch of hiring? That's a good time. 5. DON'T wait for raise time. That's the worst time to ask for a significant adjustment. Raise time managers have firm budgets and no one wants to use political capital then to ask for more. All that said, if you really are between "I'd like to stay here" and "My market rate is higher than what I'm at, but not by 30%+" then you should absolutely bring it up! I've been able to do significant adjustments for people in the past and have gotten them myself. One of the nice things that can come out of it it being told "No" and now being armed with a firm idea of what your current workplace values you at. Lockback fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Oct 7, 2021 |
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Oct 7, 2021 15:26
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A "bigger raise" and an adjustment are different things. Are you looking for 6% instead of 3% or can you make the argument you should be making 20% more for the job you're doing now? If it's the latter, is there a reason your not looking for another job? If the market doesn't match your salary desires you need to realize that and better your position through new skills or whatever. I'd suggest talk to your boss and tell him you feel you are somewhat under market and would like to work with him to remedy that because, gosh darn it, this place is like a family and I love it here. Keep positive, don't threaten to quit or get another job directly. That'll make a lot of managers defensive and start thinking about replacing you. Don't do this around raise time. If that's coming up soon, congrats you missed it. If you want a specific number that is 15%+, I suggest having that number in mind (maybe goose it up a little but keep it realistic). This is a very different negotiation than a job offer, there won't be a back and forth and it's very likely they just call your bluff. You won't get feedback until it happens. Having hard data here helps. Recent revenue, projects where time or money was saved, things like being a go-to trainer plus doing your job, etc. You will be working with your boss but they won't be there decider. You've been paying attention to the things you're VP keeps prattling on about in meetings right? That's the stuff you need to use. It'll take a while. Probably 2-6 months, leaning on the longer. You might here "Sure, we'll do something" then get nothing. You'll need to (positively) stay on top of it and not be a coward. That said, I recently secured a 30% bump for one of my outstanding engineers, another for an engineer who didn't really even ask for it, and I've gotten a few 25%+in my career that justified me not leaving. That said, I was also willing to leave which improved my implicit position. For many that's going to be the easiest route.
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Oct 9, 2021 06:51
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If they don't have dates for raises yet (seems weird) then bring it up sooner rather than later.
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Oct 9, 2021 14:22
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Every place I've ever worked was the same thing and they were not Union. Raise time was a set budget usually equal to ~3%. Promotions and adjustments were a different budget though.
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Oct 9, 2021 21:32
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Capitalization means "start covering expenses with revenue instead of startup or parent company funding". Doubtful they'd sell so fast if they were just bought by another healthcare company. Also, I've been on both sides of a sale and it's usually less a big deal than it's made out to be. The biggest layoffs I've been part of had nothing to do with sales. That said HR is more vulnerable than software engineering. However, capitalization here probably means become profitable, not selling. Edit: wait what kind of firm? I misread and thought you said healthcare firm. Even if it's private equity they usually hold on to new acquisitions for 4-6 years. Going through that kind of growth and capitalization can be real good for your career, but it is a rollercoaster. Lockback fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Oct 10, 2021 |
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Oct 10, 2021 02:37
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I've heard: Make a realistic guess at what your stock options are worth (what the initial public offering would be and multiply it by the chance it'll actually happen). Then spread that money out over 5 years or so, so basically add 20% of that above number to your salary (minus any stock that's vesting from new company in that timeframe). That really works better when you're comparing a larger amount of some future options vs a smaller but more dependable vesting. If it's say 40k in options, and probably a 80% chance of actually happening then I'd say getting an extra 6-7k a year would probably be valid.
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Oct 12, 2021 17:05
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The law prevents them from asking you current salary, it doesn't prohibit you from disclosing it. If it useful to use your current compensation as a data point, use it.
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Oct 14, 2021 20:30
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Parallelwoody posted:I was told I am one of two finalists for a position, and have had 3 interviews with them total. The last one was about a week and a half ago and I haven't had much contact other than answering some basic questions about pto/401k etc. Safe to think I'm the second choice here and they are seeing if the other person accepts the offer? I'm not sure if it's appropriate to just bluntly ask if they are waiting on their first choice to accept or not. I'm not in any real hurry but I also don't want the process to drag out either. Any advice on dropping the standard "I have another offer I'm evaluating and need an answer soon" vs just letting it play out and maybe having more leverage if the first choice rejects? I suppose they aren't mutually exclusive though. Is it a big company? They might be waiting for approvals and may be waiting on PTO. ~7 business days isn't super long but if it goes any longer I'd assume you're choice 2. Dropping a "I am waiting on another offer but would really like to know this offer before moving forward" is kind of a blanket useful thing right now.
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Oct 18, 2021 20:59
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Also note, that while it's a numbers game that doesn't mean you shouldn't strategize. Budget for a handful of applications each week that you spend real time on. That means customizing a cover letter (if they accept them), tweaking your resume to match the position, looking at your linkedin to see if you have anyone in your 1st or 2nd network who can refer you. Realistically you'll only have the time/energy to do this for a handful of jobs a week, but if you use this for the jobs that look particularly "gettable" or that you are a good fit for, it can really help. Otherwise hit the rest with your (hopefully good) generic resume.
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Oct 25, 2021 21:52
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Eric the Mauve posted:
Yeah, that's your reason. You don't need to give details.
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Nov 3, 2021 04:42
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I mean, treat people with respect while their doing their jobs but absolutely maximize every last thing you can get from them.
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Nov 5, 2021 20:51
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I would strongly doubt you could have landed the job with a lower ask. That's almost always a "Here's the counter" if they thought you were the best person. It is very likely that your health/hospital stays contributed. They found the 1 weird trick to avoid a FMLA lawsuit and find someone else.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:38
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I don't think you did anything wrong, they just probably weighed the health stuff heavily. I think it's more likely that instead of your salary ask being too high. I just don't want you to think you need to low-ball yourself in the future.
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Nov 9, 2021 06:21
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sadus posted:Is there a general consensus on what a normal 401k match is for tech companies in the 1-5 billion value range is? Going through yet another buyout and the new company (already dealing with a ton of people quitting) is dropping from 5(employee)/5(company) to get the max match to 6/3.5 and claiming it exceeds industry standards Ours is 5/4 and I'd consider that "Pretty good". 5/5 is really good though. Last place I was at was 3/3 I think.
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Nov 9, 2021 23:04
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I think you're going to have a really hard time converting a Swiss comp + benefits to a california one. Instead I'd look more at your market rate in Switzerland and maybe mentally assign some monetary value to some of the benefits (what is a car allowance worth to you, what is an RSU that vests in 2 years worth to you today?) Agree though that you probably will get new RSUs or Options coming to the new role instead of a bonus, but it could be both.
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Nov 10, 2021 15:54
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Yeah, when I say 5/4 I'm talking about what you need to do a full match (which is what you almost always should do). In my particular case it's something weird where like the first 3% is 100% match and the next 2% is 50% match? Something like that. I don't care because all I care about is "What do I need to put in to get the full company match %".
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Nov 10, 2021 16:41
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I don't think you need to justify why you want more, though I don't mind at all professionally bringing up their lovely benefits. Given where you are, I'd consider saying something like "I am currently in negotiation with other companies, but given the fact that I think this position is a great fit, a salary of y (which should be like 15% higher than what you'd actually take) would be an immediate acceptance." You can make it sound prettier.
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Nov 11, 2021 15:40
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I think people get emotional about it too. There's nothing wrong with "Oh, your offer is X and I need X+25% and we just can't meet." That seems like a perfectly normal, if disappointing, outcome. But I think people get wrapped up in "My Salary is my worth/What I can offer is my value" and get emotional on both sides, in fact I think employers are probably worse. "Oh you won't take my offer? gently caress you then" seems so childish. There's nothing wrong with an employer saying "Sorry, this is the offer" in response to a counter (but I also won't cry for them if they can't find people) but I don't understand why you would pull an offer instead of just saying "Sorry, I hope this works but if it doesn't we'll move on."
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Nov 12, 2021 18:17
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air- posted:Another update, so the original offer expired on Friday and like I posted before, I figured this company rescinded the offer since the recruiter told me in these exact words "sorry we are at the top of our range and can't meet your counter, we will have to go with another candidate" "What do you mean, he didn't take the job? A firm handshake and our family values should be enough for anybody. No one wants to do an honest days work anymore. Call him back, I am not taking no for an answer!" Poor recruiter. Mario-sized bullet dodged.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:11
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SNiPER_Magnum posted:I didn't want to post actual numbers. Comparing this to an internal move I just turned down, offer is base+10% and up to 15% bonus. And you don't get a bonus at all right now, right? Or in this new role? I think it's somewhat of a mistake to consider bonus 0, but you definitely shouldn't think of it as 100%. So let's call it a 15% pay bump, which is about what I'd consider bare minimum to move. The pto loss is significant. If I were you I'd ask for a bigger chunk of pto or a fairly significant pay bump. By the numbers a week of pto is worth 2% of your salary but I think most people value it more than that. If your losing 3 weeks I'd easily say that's worth 10% right there, maybe more. Kinda kills the pay raise. Of course, how this stuff and other considerations are valued is your judgement call. But I think your view that this is not a good offer is correct.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:49
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Dik Hz posted:
For a minute I was like "poo poo dude let's talk"
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Nov 17, 2021 01:40
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Previous offer minus $1.00 Seriously, I'd probably reply with something like "When you are ready and prepared to make an offer for this role please let me know. I am happy to talk further".
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Nov 17, 2021 21:09
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Jordan7hm posted:Just say you found a local opportunity and leave it at that. Yeah, your situation was messed up. I don't think you need to cast blame, but saying "Local opportunity, available now" would explain everything to everyone. leper khan posted:For personal reasons, I'm no longer able to accept this position. While you don't need to do anything, if you're rejecting an accepted offer I would say some kind of context is professional. You are torching a bridge when you say "just kidding" and a bit of salvage can go a long way in a world that can be quite small. Again, in this case I don't think it needs much but being clear that "Locally available and available now" after the manager stupidly thought you could just hire someone anywhere with no hurdles is appropriate.
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Nov 18, 2021 15:09
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Eric the Mauve posted:This is such godawful bullshit that just reading it raises my blood pressure.
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Nov 19, 2021 16:51
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| # ¿ May 17, 2024 04:41 |
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Maybe talk to your former coworker, they should be able to indicate if it's a shitshow or not. "We had to pause hiring for a new position for a couple months" isn't like a great sign but also is not that uncommon and is the kind of thing that's happened at every company at one point or another. I agree with the thread that if it was worth talking to them before its worth talking to them now, just adjust your numbers accordingly.
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Nov 20, 2021 21:23
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