Ultimate Mango posted:

I realize I’ve been gone for a while but wanted to come back and share a success story and ask for advice:

Got laid off in January, and after a brutal search took something that provided benefits and some income/upside but not at the level I was before (long story, not going into it here).

Went through the process at a large software company, and never once gave a number. I was also an idiot and didn’t ask for the range (I should have). Got through the interview process and the hiring manager finally wanted to talk numbers. I was offered $5k less base but a good overall package (bonus and RSUs). Ended up negotiating for $20k more base (so $15k more per year compared to previous) and they bumped the OTE a few k as well. I was able to do this because I knew my worth and stuck to my guns (and I knew they wanted me). Offer accepted, I start after Labor Day.

Here’s the tricky part: I currently work for the CEO of a small company, and my compensation is nearly entirely tied to how much I directly bill customers (basically high end consulting work). I am not billing now and am not scheduled to start a project until after Labor Day. I want to be decent and give notice, but since I’m not billing (and the company isn’t in great financial position right now) it would be easier and cheaper for the CEO to just let me go immediately vs have me stay another two weeks. I can’t afford to do COBRA and not get paid anything for two weeks before my new job starts. I tried to get my new job to start me next week but they can’t move that fast.

I think I just need to quit in two weeks vs giving notice and screwing myself when I end up with no income and an insurance gap (and a family who needs it). Yes, I’m an At-Will employee. Yes, its a lovely move. Yes, I think the CEO would just term me if I resigned, since I’m costing him money.

Am I crazy?

drainpipe posted:

The OP says to not disclose salary, which makes sense for most instances. But what if I'm moving from one industry to another and it is generally known that there is a big difference in salary between the two industries? For example, say I move from academia (decent salary) to tech or finance (great salaries). My previous salary would obviously be much lower and everyone knows it. It almost seems useless as a number since they are two different worlds. Would it still be worth it to hide that?

C-Euro posted:

Got the written version of the verbal offer I received yesterday and it's a 40% raise for ya boy Everyone re-read the thread title.

Pretty much everything on the offer letter is where I want it to be, but I'm interested in seeing if I can get a little freedom to work from home as I'll already be remote compared to everyone else I'd be working with (working out of a local office building but reporting/VPN-ing to an office elsewhere in the US). I have a couple of weekly obligations where I live that would be way easier to manage if I was able to work from home one day every other week, or even if I worked in the office in the morning and from home in the afternoon. Any advice on how I can approach that with my potential new boss?

just_a_person posted:

You are right that this is my very first negotiation, and you are probably spot on with your analysis. I think my inexperience combined with my rationalization for the company allowed them to get me for as cheap as possible. I kept thinking in terms of industry average/peer average rather than what I was worth to the company scientifically. It's something I will need to work on and this was an expensive lesson for me. I think my other fear, though, is I had no other real valid offer (contract position was not an option), and if I turned it down, I would continue being a postdoc doing very similar research that I would've been doing in the company setting, but at a much lower pay. I'll keep an eye on the start up CEO and hopefully, he will leave the science to the scientists and won't get too involved.

If so, I'll be pretty happy with everything, all said and done. The final offer was closer to what I had originally anticipated (130k+5k relocate, so 18% raise total). I continue to work on my research, but get paid a lot more to do so.

Not a Children posted:

Next time put a pie in the sky or "negotiable" or "0" in the field.

It doesn't hurt to ask, but you really don't have any leverage here unless you're willing to walk away, which it sounds like you are not. You can always fall back on the "whole compensation package" or "market research" line of reasoning, but honestly if you asked for a number and you were given it, there's no smooth way to revisit compensation unless you have a separate offer in hand that you are willing to accept. Better luck next time.

Ultimate Mango posted:

I anchored high this week for shits and giggles. Like as much as I could say without laughing high. Still got a hard sell on the company and the stock options (was a pre-revenue startup).
Big shocker, I didn’t get a call back, despite knowing the CRO.

Motronic posted:

Senior 2/IC4/however that company does it should be 170-200 ish. I'd guess Sr/IC3 should be in the 150-180 area for bands.

Almost everyone is going Radford now. So you can see if anyone has a subscription you can use/pull data for you.

Dumb Lowtax posted:

Now the question becomes, do I want to put up a job in Hollywood if the norm there is "put everyone in a shell company on 1099's"? That will depend.

If it IS an 1099, does the "rule of 1000" apply?


The classic rule makes it sound like being in a 1099 means I would ask for TWICE as much than if I wasn't.

Does that only apply when comparing it to part time/W2, or does it when comparing to full time/salary too? If a 1099 job offer says they pay $200k should I act as though it's really only offering $100k? Or is the difference vs. salaries much less extreme?

Magnetic North posted:

Just had this conversation with my boss. He's afraid of a brain drain because we probably aren't getting raises this year. I told him I was not considering leaving (the truth) but also he should not believe me because I likely wouldn't tell him if I was. That concerned him but he did say that if I decided it was time he would be willing to be a reference. That surprised me a little bit, but we have had a good working relationship thus far, so I don't think he is trying to beguile me here.

Of the three tech jobs I've had, none ended up requiring references. One was out of college but gave me no one to use for the second, and the latest one never asked. Do references matter anymore, especially considering that a valuable one could potentially sabotage my current employment? I think the answer is "NO" but that seems odd. Does that mean everyone uses references from two jobs ago?

Barudak posted:

How do you all figure out what an appropriate for a job salary is?I have an offer from a company who claims they "never do negotiations" and am feeling lowballed for the position. Like when we started talking the salary range floor that was being discussed was 10 grand higher than where we're coming in at now. I have till Friday to do an in person walk through of their offer and I'd rather be well armed before going in and asking for more.

Target Practice posted:

TheSpartacus posted:

I recently had a corporate recruiter ask me for a salary expectation for a position I'm interested in. It was fun to point out to them that under the Colorado Equal Pay for Equal Work act, they need to provide ME with a range on for job posting. Let's see if my tactic of knowing state law backfires and they just trash my resume instead.

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:

Lol they are now trying to offer me a higher level position with better pay. No idea if I'll take it but seriously, none of this would have happened without advice from this thread, you guys rule.

the talent deficit posted:

maybe software is different but i vastly prefer external recruiters to internal. the external ones have a way better sense of market value and do a way better job of pitching me jobs i might actually want to do. they're also way more motivated to actually keep the process on rails than internal recruiters. internal recruiters just shotgun me with every opening they got that has a couple keyword matches with my resume because they get paid whether i reply or not

Ornery and Hornery posted:

That’s a great point. I’m debating if I should wait the rest of the year at my place to likely get the internal promotion position. Or start looking externally now.

I’ve been at this place for 1.5 years, which seems a bit early to bolt.

buglord posted:

Despite all odds I’ve made it to the third and final round of the interview. I don’t think I can kick the salary can down the road any longer.

The floor is 55k, the goal is 60k, the ceiling is 62k.

If I stick to my guns with 60k, will they say “ok we’ll consider it” and then choose the guy who accepted 55k instead? I guess that’s a funny way to put it, but I’m quite worried that somehow I lose the job so someone who offers to do it cheaper. Or does that come after I’m selected (god willing)?

Sorry these are really dumb questions but this is the first time I’m able to negotiate anything instead of flat out accepting minimum wage because I have no other choice.

BonHair posted:

If this happens to you in the EU, or (I think) in an EU based company, it's very much illegal because of GDPR. This is worth knowing in case the company screwed you over, because you get a pretty nuclear option of reporting them, which could lead to solve serious fines. I think this would also apply in most places that copied the GDPR, possibly even California.

Guinness posted:

Big congrats, another thread success story!
The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: How to Succeed in Spite of Yourself

Hadlock posted:

There's a position, and I found out that an H-1B holder having the position, which means their 2019 salary is public record

I was going to swing high*, say $1150-1175, I'm coming in as a personal referral from a top ranked employee, and then when they counter, point out that the H-1B salary was $1000 in 2019, so with 4% compounding annual raise ought to be, for example

2019: $1000
2020: $1040
2021: $1082

And then propose ~$1100 since it's Q3 2021 already and won't qualify for annual review on time etc

Also what's best guidance on starting bonus for a senior tech position these days, 10% annual salary? Rounding up to the nearest $5,000? I'm not sure if they offer RSUs but presumably they will if everything goes according to plan. A friend said their equity system was pretty generous, at least when they started a while back.

* after they give a number first, JFC; why did the thread title change, it was perfect
Side note, last time I did salary negotiations, I swung a 12% increase over the initial offer, doubled my bonus, and got 50% additional equity over initial offer, but took two weeks of back and forth
Job before that, I said a number first, they gave me the low end of the range I said (never say a number first, JFC)
Job before that, I negotiated up about 12% exactly as well, added a (meager) relocation bonus

Owlspiracy posted:

thanks for the reply. i know this is probably stupid, but uh, how does this work? they're gonna send me the official offer, and do i reply anbd jsut say 'thank you for the offer,...'

like whats the language you use for this?

Eric the Mauve posted:

There's rarely any negotiating an internal transfer. If they think they can get away with no pay increase at all they will, else they'll add maybe 5-10%.

Spikes32 posted:

I'm ten years into pharma gmp experience but only 1.5 into this specific lims experience so it's a bit wonky. I'm technically making 77k in San Diego, but after taking on call pay plus bonuses /stock options etc my total pay is about 100k.

To be honest I'm not totally sure what my position would be offering in the bay area, not as high as a pure tech position for equivalent experience I know that. This company isn't bay area based since they're full remote, so I doubt the pay would be as high. I think it would be worth it though for the experience, if it's at least somewhat close. We would be living in San Jose, so not quite as expensive as the peninsula or Sf itself.

Thank you for the template of how to approach the call this afternoon though, that was really helpful.

Spikes32 posted:

Appreciate the responses, offer came in at 108, up to 112k to try and get me to say yes today, I told them I'd have a response by the end of the week. Company 2 moved up their interview to tomorrow, and I'm calling company 3 after work to let them know I'll need an offer soon. Let's see how high this can go!

Head Bee Guy posted:

Hey thread, I posted here about a month ago seeking guidance on a convoluted offer I got to do operations at a boutique strategy consulting startup as well as managing a property.

Part of that initial offer was to pay me a salary that I would then pay back as rent to establish a rent roll on this property, but we’ve scrapped that as part of the initial employment offer. We are going to figure out that rent roll scheme somewhere down the line, but for now, we worked out a simple employment contract, and it’s a bit better than that initial deal. I’m kinda proud of myself for flipping the housing-as-compensation offer on its head—establishing that it’s not actually a valuable proposition to me—and I ended up getting a higher base rate out of it.

When it came down to brass tacks and my boss asked how much I wanted to make in a year, I threw out 65k, which is about 15k more than my last job. After deliberating for a few days, he countered with a starting salary of 48k a year (plus health care and a 401k), but I’d be on a fast track to 65k in about six months after I hit a few key milestones, and I’d be on track to make ~88k after about a year and a half (but i’m not counting those chickens). He argued that I don’t have the skills and experience yet to be autonomous enough to justify 65k (he’s right, this if my first time working in both of these fields, and I haven’t worked much since graduating with a liberal arts degree a few years ago). So I agreed to it.

Now I know a promise of future raises isn’t worth much, but I basically don’t have a BATNA (unemployment would have run out this week, and I stoped studying Javascript a few months to focus on this work), and the milestones are pretty concrete and attainable. Also Ive gotten the sense over the past few weeks that he’s legitimately invested in training me up to those higher levels, so I don’t get the sense that I’m being used as cheap, disposable labor.

Anyway, thanks for helping me work through this and for providing strategic tips in the actual conversation. I certainly would have said a few things I shouldn’t have had I not read the thread.

FCKGW posted:

This is an hourly position but yeah, I’m gonna talk to them on Tuesday. They’re offering $34 but I would like $36-$38.

Do I just talk to the HR person who contacted me or do I need to talk to one of the managers? I haven’t interviewed for a job in 20 years so this is all new to me.

FCKGW posted:

Recruiter called me back on my counter offer and we got to a number I'm happy with

Going from a 90min commute to 15min commute is gonna be such a great shift in my work/life balance, thanks for the advice thread!

TheParadigm posted:

Speaking of google, this link came across my radar today. Figured the thread might want to see it.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/10/google-underpaid-workers-illegal-pay-disparity-documents

Shats Basoon posted:

Took a job earlier this year which represented a career change (posted about it a bit in the thread). Been in the role for about 6 months now and just got hit up by a recruiter with a similar role that is fully remote. The role didn't have a salary listed so I asked for the band. The recruiter said it runs concurrent with experience and blah blah blah but asked what I was expecting. I don't really have any desire to leave my job for another 9-12 months at the earliest so I threw out a 'gently caress you' number thinking that would be that. Well the recruiter responded back that it was 'no problem' and asked me to fill out an application and they would review and set up a phone interview (should have aimed higher on my f-u number I guess). Well I did and that happened so now I suppose I got to get to practicing interviewing again. I'd feel pretty bad about leaving my current job so quickly and burning the bridge but this role would be a 50% pay bump, at worst, over the current role (100%+ what I was making in March) if the recruiter is to believed. Don't really think I can turn that down if offered with what I know now. If it comes to pass, I'm contemplating taking the offer to the current role and asking for a pay bump, although I've never been a big fan of that move, and I don't see how anything they offer would approach that salary.

Happiness Commando posted:

I have an offer from Amazon - my first FAANG offer ever. Without any negotiation on my part, it is worth roughly 35% more than my current compensation. I want to ask for more. Help me please:

Current situation:
I get a base salary and a profit share bonus with a 5 year vest of 20% per year. However! I actually quit after several years and was then rehired less than a year later, eliminating my unvested gains and resetting the clock back to zero. I will be eligible for profit share once again at the end of 2022. So this year, I am basically just making my base salary.

Amazon doesn't know that - since I quit in March of 2020 and was rehired in April of 2021, my resume lists both employment periods with this one employer as a single uninterrupted stretch with several title increase (e.g. 2019-2020 Junior Chicken Rancher, 2021-present Chicken Rancher).

Amazon made an offer that is roughly a 35% increase from my current pay. They only ("only") offered 32 RSU shares over their 4 year vesting schedule. If I say something like "Look, I have partially vested profit share that is roughly equal to [x years of overlapping step functions worth of profit share in line with what my resume implies it would be], I have displayed growth at all of my other jobs, clearly I'm hungry and looking to be my best, help me out here", is that the way to go? It is absolutely false that I have any profit share, since I quit and was rehired and the clock was reset, so if in some weird twist they say "show us your profit sharing plan that proves what you claim", I would absolutely not have anything to go on. That seems unlikely, but to be caught in such a lie would be embarrassing at best.

I think, but have to double check the math, that given 5 years of profit share (i.e. if the clock hadn't reset and I was getting the most I could out of the profit share), base+profit share is roughly equal to the Amazon total offer, so not any raise at all.

My BATNA is to stay at my current boring job. I dont really want to do that. If they said "we will not budge one inch on this offer" I would take it anyway.

The offer letter says it expires on Tuesday. I assume thats boilerplate and I could stretch it out if I wanted. If that's true, then I could sign up for the levels.fyi guaranteed negotiation package which costs $1k and guarantees +$10k in first year pay. Or you all could just tell me what to do.

What should I do?

empty whippet box posted:

Not sure if this is the right thread for this but it's the closest I could think of.

Hi negotiation thread. Seeking advice here. My new employer was supposed to pay us Friday. The pay period ended on the 10th. I live in Utah.

been doing some reading about Utah labor laws.


https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title34/Chapter28/34-28-S3.html?v=C34-28-S3_2014040320140513

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title34/Chapter28/34-28-S9.html

The pay period ended on the 10th.

this seems to say that they now owe me 5% of the late wages extra, with 2.5% going to the state.

Is my reading of this correct? I'm extremely pissed off about this and am 100% willing to go into the training zoom call tomorrow and immediately bring this up to my trainer if that's what the right move is. I want my loving money and I'm going to make it a problem until they pay me, and if they owe me extra because of this then they're going to pay me extra. Any help is appreciated, i am extremely poor and do not appreciate my first check being so late.

Jumpsuit posted:

It's not related to mat leave or me personally (which would probably make it easier to argue), it's a business wide restructure. Over 200 roles are being removed. University, if that helps.

My alternative is just accepting the payout offer, but I feel like I'm leaving money on the table by not fighting for a 100% payout. The policy is indirectly discriminatory to women.

LochNessMonster posted:

You might want to first want to tell HR: "either you give me 100% or you can do the rest of the discussion through my lawyer". They might think it's not worth the hassle and just pay you the 15k, which saves you the cost of a lawyer.

You're getting fired either way, I'd make their life as miserable as possible over it, especially if the reward is 15k. It certainly feels discriminatory to birth givers, but it really depends on Aussie law if they can actually do this or not.

Kaiju15 posted:

I'm a software developer, unemployed since the beginning of this month.

I've fired off some applications and worked with some third party recruiters and had two of the recruiter opportunities hit final interviews.

One came in with an offer of 6mo contract to hire $75k, no benefits (the recruiting company has a plan they can get me on 60 days after I start). Seems like a lovely deal regardless of negotiation.

Just wrapped up the final interview for the other company. Feel pretty good about it, and anticipate an offer. The recruiter trying to get me placed asked:

My idiot brain says "health insurance and enough money to afford beer," but I'm aware that's the wrong answer. When the recruiter first approached me about the role, I stayed quiet about salary expectations until he said they're looking to direct hire for $95-$100k. (Which I'd gladly accept).

Do I just pretend I didn't see the text where he asked this or should I raise given that my BATNA sucks and this is just the outside recruiter?

Hotbod Handsomeface posted:

Can I get a gauge on engineering salary?

I have a BS in Chemical Engineering and am looking to change jobs. I have just under 6 years of experience and make 90k/yr in Oregon right now. I am trying to pick what I would need to move to the Bay Area or Los Angeles in Ca and at least maintain my current quality of life. Anyone have any pointers for estimating salary needs for different cost of living areas? I was looking at the Nerd Wallet and Best Places cost of living calculators as a start. Anything else I should be checking out?

Drink and Fight posted:

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but:

I currently work at a mature pre-IPO startup. I'm interviewing at a family office. Salary hasn't been discussed yet but I know what benefits are on the table. How do I translate the (potential) worth of my current stock options into hard numbers for a salary requirement at the new place?

stump collector posted:

drat, maybe I have been asking the wrong questions. Whats the lowest effort way to break into software engineering from electrical engineering

🤔

Xguard86 posted:

With inflation and COL in Austin 10 years ago ... is that such a raw deal? Honestly asking.

foutre posted:

I got a new grad offer from the company I worked at last summer, which I would like to go back to.

The offer is for ~100k salary, 10% bonus, and 50k stock over 3 years. So like ~110ish a year. Most of the other benefits are solid (ie option to be fully remote, 4 weeks pto, etc), except their health insurance has pretty limited benefits in one specific area where I need consistent coverage, which could end up costing like ~8k a year on their plan.

On Glassdoor, the highest salary for my role has a base pay of 115k. Should I just ask for that and hope to land closer to 110k base? Is there any sense in mentioning the issue with their health insurance (my instinct is no, just ask for more money without going into specifics but idk)? Are there other areas that I should think about for negotiating?

Realistically I'd still be happy with their base pay, but it is a good bit lower than other places I've been interviewing at (130-190k total comp). Admittedly it isn't apples to apples - those are big tech/FAANG, this is in games, those are swe/data scientist roles, this is for a data analyst position - but I'd still like the gap to be a bit smaller. It seems like I'm a more competitive candidate than I'd realized, and if there's some way I could leverage that I'd like to.

Hadlock posted:

Does anyone have experience negotiating executive pay, particularly at a fortune ranked company

Seems like bonus is around 35% of base? Anything else?

How is executive pay even structured. Base, annual bonus, sales bonus, uh at one place they had a $15,000 social bonus for joining country clubs etc but I imagine that varies from company to company. Also pretty sure executive band gets you a different class of healthcare benefits

foutre posted:

Did exactly this:

And got it plus a signing bonus. Ty for the advice!

Also just seconding Hadlock's advice re the relative cost to live in the Bay vs Reno. Living in Oakland isn't bad if you have a pretty direct BART commute, but housing prices aren't /that/ much lower and if you have to drive it'll be a journey.