The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR? - The Something Awful Forums

Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Great post, Dwight. Also, thanks for setting up the spreadsheet Kyoon.

Blinky2099 posted:

This has probably been covered a hundred times over in the other thread but I don't remember ever seeing it within the past few months... why is this such a firm belief in SA when there's a lot of research that suggests anchoring (being the one to give a number first) could potentially be even better?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring#In_negotiations

It feels like there are two polar opposites here (offer first or have them offer first), both of which have advantages and disadvantages.

The biggest problem with trying to anchor salary negotiations is the information asymmetry involved. When I hire someone, I know exactly how much budget I have approved as well as the salary structure of my division. I would completely ignore any attempt to upwardly anchor your salary, and I suspect most hiring managers would do likewise.

I wholeheartedly endorse anchoring for people with unique skillsets or who are in extreme demand, like classified cyber-security professionals or experienced pediatric neurosurgeons. But for the purposes of this thread in advising people how to negotiate their first salary or raise, resisting giving out a number first is generally a better strategy.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2016 00:33

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 17:22

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

If this thread does nothing else, convincing people not to give a range will make the world a better place. Think about it this way, if you go to buy a toaster, and the cashier says the toaster costs $10-20, would you ever consider paying more than $10?

# ¿ Mar 17, 2016 02:02

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

El Mero Mero posted:

What are people's opinion about just lying about your current salary (or inflating it) and then using that number to negotiate slightly up from?

You'll likely get away with it the first time you do it, but if you make it a habit, it'll catch up with you and you won't like the consequences.

Additionally, there's no need to lie. Not disclosing your current salary and simply stating your salary requirement will accomplish the same thing.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2016 02:37

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

I disagree with people saying it's unethical - companies won't hesitate to lie and say things like "we'll plan on giving you a salary bump/promotion at the 6 months mark" and other such things to sign people - it seems only fair that it goes both ways. Still, it carries risk and can damage your credibility if you're caught. I think you'd be strictly better off making up a pending offer from a third company(leave it unnamed) than your actual, falsifiable current salary. It's bizarre but not completely off the table for a company to ask for a paystub or even an offer letter (I'd never comply with such a request but I'm at a point in my career where I am genuinely happy to walk from a place that rubs me the wrong way.) Using a company giving you an offer has other advantages - if they play hardball, you can have good reasons to non-sheepishly take the offer anyway, like company-specific intangibles. That doesn't play so well when it's literally a place you're (ostensibly) happy to keep working at.

Setting the ethics aside, what would lying about having another offer accomplish that confidently asserting your target salary would not?

I can only speak for myself, but if a candidate pulled this on me and I decided to hire them, I'd make their offer conditional on providing the details of the competing offer.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2016 19:07

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Cast_No_Shadow posted:

If you can't even trust me here over what is, to the company, less than a rounding error, whats it going to be like working for you. Thanks for your time, don't call me, I'll call you.

Congrats on being a millennial stereotype, I guess. Also, why should I trust someone I literally just met?

# ¿ Mar 20, 2016 20:02

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Bisty Q. posted:

Why should they trust you? Demanding a copy of a competing offer letter is so far out of the professional norm that it makes you sound like a loon.

I disagree. If someone brings it up, asking for proof is acceptable. And you shouldn't trust me. If you interview with me, you should ask for everything in writing. I won't be offended if you do.

From my perspective, I need justification to get additional budget for the hire approved. An offer letter from a competitor for a person who we wanted to hire would be the perfect justification that our initial budget for the hire was too low. I've done this before, and it's not a big deal.

Scenario 1:
Potential hire: "I have a competing offer that I'm prepared to accept."
Me: "Great! Can we match it? I'll need a copy of the offer to take to my leadership so we can beat it."
Potential hire: "Sure, here's the e-mail!"
Me: "I can't make any promises, but I'll go to bat for you!"

Scenario 2:
Potential hire: "I have a competing offer that I'm prepared to accept."
Me: "Great! Can we match it? I'll need a copy of the offer to take to my leadership so we can beat it."
Potential hire: "No."
Me: "Um, ok. We'll be in touch."

# ¿ Mar 21, 2016 01:15

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

If they are bringing you in like that odds are they will step up.

If they don't, go to the real decision makers, who are the people you will work with, and ask / tell them what you need and to get the hr person to stop messing around. There's nothing at all wrong with short circuiting the hr loop if you have a good relationship.

Completely agree. A phone call from a director to HR clears up the BS instantaneously. We routinely hire contractors for management positions in my organization, and by the time we have the approval to do so, we're completely committed to that particular person, and I'll rip the head off the HR weenie who costs me a good candidate. We pay out the nose for people, but there is absolutely no substitute for a good worker who already gets along with the team.

Couple other points I'd like to make to TheWevel:
- Exploit your information asymmetry. As long as you're professional in your negotiation, there's only upside to setting a high target.
- The outbound guy wasn't liked. You are. Therefore you're more valuable and should be paid more than the outbound guy.
- Can you get on COBRA or something similar for your wife? Slightly less than routine (or premature) pregnancies can easily result in 6 figure medical bills. Also, companies don't always have flexibility with regards to the start of medical benefits.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2016 23:53

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Doghouse posted:

How feasible is it to look for a job, specifically in mechanical engineering, where you kind of need a signing bonus to take it? My wife (m.e. With ~5 years experience) is terribly unhappy at her current job which started about 5 months ago. Unfortunately they paid for our relocation and we'd have to pay back 100% if she left before a year, 50% before two. I'm not sure how much it would be, but it would be a lot; they even put us up in a nice apartment for the first month.

Is it worth looking and hoping to find somewhere that would be willing to give a fairly hefty sighing bonus?

We hire a fair number of engineers, and signing bonuses are extremely uncommon for anyone lower than the director level. Relocation expenses are generally paid, though, so I might try framing it that way in the job hunt. I.E. "I'd love to work with you, but as part of my compensation, I want you to assume responsibility for my relocation expenses." Don't open with the information, but rather bring it up during salary negotiations if offers progress that far. Also, be prepared for the question of why she's leaving after 5 months.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2016 00:36

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Kalenn Istarion posted:

This is a good post and should be quoted or linked in the Op, I think.

I'm a bigger fan of this one: https://hms.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/assets/Sites/Ombuds/files/NegotiationConflictStyles.pdf. It draws a distinction between compromise and collaboration, with the latter being more desirable but harder to effect.

I completely agree with the rest of your assessment though, particularly that new hires should consider a transactional approach.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2016 12:27

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Not Grover posted:

Not sure if this is exactly the right place to ask, but it seems right. My girlfriend and I both work in the same industry and are looking to relocate. We interviewed this week at competing companies in the city we would like to move to, and both got offers. Because it's a little of a niche industry and kind of a small world, so to speak, my potential employer knows my girlfriend interviewed at the other company. I actually interviewed at two locations owned by the same person; one is specialty and one is more generalized (and in another town ~20-30 mins away). I'm more interested in the specialty place, and today received an email back with an offer, with the caveat that the owner would prefer that I not work in the specialty office if my girlfriend is going to work for the competitor (conflict of interest?). I kind of get it, but it also kind of seems like bullshit to me. I am going to sleep on it before I respond, but as I've never been in this situation, I thought I'd get some more perspective. Thoughts?

In my humble internet opinion, everyone is acting like adults in this scenario. The company expressed reservations but still offered you the job, so it sounds like they're relatively open and handle conflict well, which is noteworthy. They could have simply not hired you.

Your girlfriend is in the same position; how did her company handle it?

# ¿ May 20, 2016 02:29

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

asur posted:

Are there any guidelines for negotiating if you have multiple offers without a strong preference between them? I'm assuming you want to mention that you have a better offer to improve your BATNA and get them to offer more. Is there a limit to how many times you can come back to the company asking for more because of a better offer? It seems like people would get annoyed or is this just expected?

Revealing that you have other offers you're willing to accept isn't bad, but it doesn't get you anything more than simply negotiating with confidence will. I'd recommend against it, only because it's a sub optimal strategy.

FWIW, as a hiring manager, I assume anyone that's awesome enough for me to consider hiring is awesome enough to have multiple offers. When they counter my initial offer, I assume it's because they could make more money elsewhere and counter back according.

# ¿ May 27, 2016 04:00

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Hotbod Handsomeface posted:

I am graduating with a Bsc in chemical engineering in a few weeks. I have 2 internships, 1 research project that I presented at a national conference, have club leadership experience, and have a GPA of 3.2.

I have just received a job offer in the pharmaceutical industry in the east bay area in CA. The offer is $65000 with good benefits, great vacation/pto and great 401k. This value agrees with the middle of the range from the companys glass door page and some of the reviews say that the company does not negotiate. I like the benefits and I really like the company. I am interviewing at another company in an unrelated field and am waiting to hear if I move further in the process for a third company, also in an unrelated field. Does anyone know what a competitive offer in this industry/location would look like? Is this an offer/situation that I should negotiate?

From the link posted above on salaries for engineers, your expected median salary is $74k adjusting for degree, location, experience, and inflation. $65k with good benefits is probably a little low, but a job is a job. I'd probably say I was excited for the opportunity and counter at $74k without going into any detail about how I came to that number.

# ¿ May 28, 2016 03:39

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

poeticoddity posted:

Update: Ugh. The recruiter I've been talking to about this position for over a month e-mailed me earlier (post interview) and explicitly asked, "Give me a range please." Suggestions for handling that?

I'm going to assume this is the private company you mentioned a couple posts ago. Is it the company's recruiter or a third party recruiter? If it's a third party recruiter, just press her for the offer. If it's a company recruiter, give the top number of your range +$5k as your salary requirement. Either way, tell them you're excited to work with $company but you have another offer you plan on accepting and need their best offer immediately.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2016 04:09

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

paradigmblue posted:

I'm really unsure on how to proceed, and I could use a hand. I'm expected to send an e-mail on Monday with my answer.

The generic advice is to push back and refuse the position unless there's an increase in compensation relative to the increase in responsibilities.

However, there's a lot of missing information that could make this bad advice. Can you give us more details about how replaceable you are in your current position vice the new position? How likely is another similar opportunity to come up if you decline this one? Where are you at in your career and where do you want to be in your career?

Occasionally, taking the increased responsibilities regardless of compensation makes sense if you have a crappy BATNA and you intend to leverage the new skills into a new career field or at a different company at a much higher salary. Transitioning from engineering to project management is a great example in my industry (aerospace/defense), if the latter suits your talents better.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2016 15:28

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

paradigmblue posted:

My current position is retail management - I am the GM of a 14,500 sf liquor store with a staff of 25, which makes me fairly replaceable - retail management isn't exactly rocket science. I've been very successful at that role however, so it sounds like one of the reasons that management wants me to stay in my current position as well is that they are afraid of taking a chance on another manager. The location I manage is relatively remote compared to the rest of the stores in the company, which means that I operate with a lot less support than other stores in the chain.

Opportunities like this don't come along often in the company, as there are very few places to go above store manager in the organization. I'm a little sideways in my career right now - I'm a certified specialist of wine and certified specialist of spirits, and most of my interest (and skills) are in product as well as staff and customer education rather than management. The new position would allow me to use those skills a little more. What I'm concerned about is that I'm being asked to continue to manage the store, plus take on all these additional responsibilities with no additional compensation.

Edit: Heck, here's the e-mail, in redacted form:

Unfortunately, I know absolutely nothing about your industry, so I'm defaulting to my generic advice. The only thing I do know is that in any field, good managers that take care of their employees and solve their own problems are irreplaceable. Your leadership's reluctance in hiring another manager is objective evidence of your (ir)replaceability. Negotiate with confidence.

I'd push back with: "I'm excited about this opportunity and the confidence you place in me, but I'm concerned that I won't be able to effectively manage my store without putting in additional hours. I'm also worried that the travel requirements will force me to spend more time away from my family. Considering the additional responsibilities and sacrifices I'd have to make, I expect commiserate compensation of X."

If they balk at that, I'd counter with: "I'm still excited about the opportunity and it aligns with my career goals. If I'm successful with my new assignment by demonstrating <something measureable> while maintaining sales at their current level at my current store, will you commit to a raise of X at my 6 month review?" Then do it.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2016 19:49

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

I disagree, under no circumstances should you accept additional responsibilities without additional compensation. A promise for a raise in 6 months is worth nothing, they will play the same game again when 6 months roll around until you grow a spine and put your foot down.

The ONLY way that it's a good move is if you can make yourself irreplaceable in your new double-position AND have the ability to walk for appropriate compensation after 6 months. If you do this you'll probably be occupying the double-position indefinitely so you have to make the compensation worth it over the long haul.

Get a good deal now, or don't go forward with them.

The six month option is a fall back position if the opportunity is in paradigmblue's long term career goals and negotiations fail. I would never encourage someone to take that as their opening position. Also, a documented plan for a raise in six months tied to specific measurable performance objectives is better than a promise, it's a legally enforceable contract.

I'd still do this though if there's no raise:

Dik Hz posted:

You might consider taking the promotion without compensation to make the transition then going elsewhere to get paid.

or this:

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

Yeah you could take the new title and immediately start interviewing elsewhere.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2016 01:10

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

paradigmblue posted:

My palms got sweaty and my heart raced just getting up the nerve to hit the "send" button. I'm terrible at being assertive, so this was really hard for me. We'll see what happens.

Don't panic when it takes two weeks for them to get back to you. That's just part of the game. Keep doing your job and don't do anything to subvert your position, like send another e-mail "just to follow up." It may have been difficult, but it felt awesome at the same time, right?

# ¿ Jul 26, 2016 02:51

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 17:22

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Risket posted:

Luckily the engineers I work with are all pros, and are glad to accept my help.

Thank you all for the advice, I greatly appreciate it.

Can you negotiate a higher base salary for not buying into the health insurance since you get it through your wife? Other than that, I'd just thank them for their vote of confidence in your abilities and counter at the top end of the range you previously gave.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2016 01:15

1
2
3
4
5

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.9 (SABB-v2.24.04)
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
Copyright ©2024, Jeffrey of YOSPOS