The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR? - The Something Awful Forums

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Chaotic Flame posted:

Can you negotiate that? I've never heard of variable matching rates per employee before.

It depends. If employers have a non-standard 401k match, they have to prove to the IRS that employees across all income levels participate roughly equally. This can be a substantial amount of paperwork. Most employers use a standard non-negotiable 401k match structure pre-approved by the IRS so they don't have to go through all the paperwork.

But it never hurts to ask.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2018 02:21

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 18:37

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Spoderman posted:

I just got an offer letter for a new job in my field at a company that seems a million times better than my current one. It's technically for more than I make, but adjusted for benefits, the pay is basically identical to my current job's. What's the best way to frame asking for a higher salary in this context? And if I need to discuss vacation dates I've already booked, I should do that after discussing salary, right?

Just ask. "I really need $Current_Salary+$10,000 to make this work." No justification, no excuses. If you've already talked salary, "After seeing the total compensation package, I'm going to need $Current_Salary+$10,000. Is that possible?"

For vacation dates, negotiate salary, come to an agreement, and then bring up the vacation dates. Just frame it as a reasonable issue that you're both completely committed to finding a reasonable solution to. Pleasantly detached is the attitude you're going for. Employers get this all the time. Life happens. Just don't accept the offer and then spring it on them.

# ¿ May 18, 2018 00:47

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Truman Sticks posted:

I just accepted a promotion at my current job. They offered me 39k, I asked for 45k. They didn't budge.

My new role will be focused on video production. Their argument for not going higher than 39 was because I have no formal training in film production and editing, which is true (I literally picked up Adobe Premiere in January and learned from watching YouTube tutorials, and my company liked what I showed them).

I took the promotion anyway. 39k is already a substantial raise (~13%) from where I had been, and my only alternative would have been going back to answering phone calls as front-line tech support, which I wasn't about to do. Plus, they did agree to provide me with online and off-site training for video production and editing to improve my skills.

I didn't get the salary I asked for, but I did get what I feel is a healthy compromise. Never not negotiate.

Great, do it for a year and then go to another company that actually pays experienced video production people what they're worth. Video production is a valuable skill.

# ¿ May 31, 2018 01:43

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Corben Goble-Garbus posted:

Anyone have experience negotiating against the Oregon Equal Pay Act or similar law? Someone I know received an offer for less than they wanted and think they deserve. The company justified it by saying they are faced with this law and they have to use "new legal filters" when assessing salary. When they prepared the offer, the company said they had to compare against candidates with a similar level of experience who, according to the company, do not make what the candidate is asking for.

Kinda bullshit to me. I think there are more criteria than level of experience that they could draw on to justify a higher salary but I'm not sure what the best approach would be. Appreciate any ideas.

It really comes down to knowing the market rate. If your buddy is getting offered lower than market rate because the company pays others below market rate, then he should walk and find somewhere that pays market rate. If he's looking to make above market rate, then he should be able to demonstrate why he's worth it. Either way, the law you cited is a false front.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 04:03

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Macaroni Surprise posted:

I find myself in a situation where I recently improved my earning power and wanted to get some advice on how to approach things.

I work for a very well known substance abuse program, which I started with in March of this year. They have excellent benefits and pay a bit above market rate. I'm very happy with my workplace. I hold a LAC to do addiction counseling and last week finally got my LPC to do mental health counseling. It's a really big deal in our field to have dual licensure. By getting this I opened myself up to options to work in a private practice, and opened up like 4 times more job opportunities.

Now I started with this company in March, and we should be doing our yearly review and raise in October. I think it's appropriate to ask for a raise in conjunction with this license before October, however, at the moment I'm not doing too many duties that require the mental health license. There's a clinical director who oversees a lot of services and the executive director who focuses on business operations. I'm thinking that I should go to the clinical director and ask what program improvements he's been thinking about and how I can help and also asking him for a raise. I'm considering a few different trainings to develop some specialized skills, and I'd like to talk it over to see what the program needs to develop further in that direction. The C-suite staff is very approachable and we often eat lunch together. I don't see there being an issue with grabbing either of them about this.

I guess the big areas I'm still curious about are: Should I approach the clinical director or executive director? How should I account for being so new to the company? What would be the best number to ask for? I'm thinking 10%. How do I handle it if they punt the raise or discussion to October?

I do have concerns about not delivering services at this point that use the new license, but I believe they could slot me into new duties that would need it.

Regardless of anything else, asking for a raise after being on the job for only 4 months isn't going to come off well. I'd suggest waiting for October.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2018 23:19

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Biomute posted:

So, I'm in a position to do this stuff now for the first time in my life. Getting my first job as a software developer was a nightmare that took a year and a half because the market was absolutely horrible after I finished my masters. The place I'm at gave me a decent starting salary (I did not negotiate), especially for being in the public sector, and they've given me two unprompted raises since in addition to the yearly stipulated one. Almost two years later I wanna move on because, while I'm doing well at my job and it feels good being relied upon I know I'm still fresh to this game, and getting stuck working with legacy technologies and no real mentors to learn from is somewhat demotivating, but mostly I'm worried that it is not doing my CV no favors.

Luckily, the market is super hot now, and I got offered a position at the first place I applied to (a small, but reputable consultancy firm). Their initial offer was below what I already make, and I was expecting somewhat of a rise, what with me moving to the private sector and all. In response I kinda broke rule 1 (and probably others) in my first reply (should have read the thread first) by saying that their offer was below what I already earn and that I was expecting to go up 20-25% with the move to the private sector backed up by some statistics I found. I was being somewhat vague, but I gave them a sum and I'm sure they can do basic math and figure out about where I'm at. Luckily, the sum I did give was a sum that was in excess of what I would settle for, although friends in the industry have said I should not sell myself short. I kind of expected them to just walk away from the process, but reading this thread it's clear I should not have. I figured I did not have that much to lose, and there are other places I've been in contact with that are saying to not agree to anything until I've heard back from them.

The response I did get is both encouraging and puzzling. Basically they're saying that because of their focus on developing the skills of their consultants, and allowing them free time to hone their skills instead of spending every hour of the week doing billable work, they're not able to pay as much as other places. Their argument is that this makes them a better place to work, and more suited to my needs. I agree with them about this, it is why I went to them first, although similar freedoms and systems are not entirely uncommon elsewhere in the industry. They also say they have a good pension plan etc.
Their main argument for the sum in their offer is that they consider me to have a single year of experience, and that it would be hard to sell the non-relevant experience between my studies and my current work to potential customers. In his words it's about how they're going to present me to others, not how much the company itself values my potential.

Still, they admit that they might have been a bit harsh in their initial evaluation, and say they could just put me down as having two year of experience with the associated pay increase (in essence, a 5% raise from my current pay) and in their words just "hope that sales won't be an issue". So, their offer is still pretty far from my target, and this is where things get a bit weird. These people are a private company, so even if they do operate with pay brackets in theory based on experience there's bound to be large variability in pay as everyone are free to negotiate it. I'm totally fine with them selling me as having one year of experience, I'll just be paid more from their cut of what I bill. That it is being presented to me as being so black and white, yet clearly the rules can be bent seems dishonest to me.

They finish by saying that I could probably get what I'm asking (or more!) somewhere else, but that I'd have to put up with doing what I'm being told to bill. I don't understand what they mean by this. I am a pro and I do the job. I'm guessing they are alluding to there not being as much (or any) time for self-studies or in-house projects and they just wrote it weird. They say they hope their improved offer is good enough. I read that as a hint that any further negotiations are impossible, but my guess from this thread is that it is not. It's hard to know just what to ask for and how hard to press, because the people at the top in this field make money hand over fist, and while you don't have much bargaining power without experience, even a little bit makes you a very valuable commodity. Some of my friends are have less education than me, and maybe an extra year of experience and would not be satisfied with what I'm asking for.

So, what next? I don't really want to settle for their second offer, because while it possibly is an improvement in work environment the earning potential of a job change can be very big, and I'd feel like I squandered an opportunity if my salary only went up what it would basically do naturally at my current job. Do I just lower my initial demand a little bit, say, by the same amount that they are reminding me their yearly pension plan is worth? Any good arguments?

Walk. This company is trash. They know they pay below market and are trying to snow you on it rather than being honest about it.

Edit: Some companies pay below market and make up for it in other ways. That's perfectly fine as long as they're honest about it. This company is trying to bullshit you and take $20k/year from your potential earnings.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2018 11:07

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Grumpwagon posted:

I'm curious how people handle when a company publishes a salary range (fairly broad in this case, 40k) for a position, particularly when any point along the range would be an increase.

I'm well qualified for the positional duties, but not familiar with this company's industry. Familiarity with the industry is specifically called out in the nice to have section of the job description. My gut feeling is to ask for MAX-$10k, which would still be a great salary for the position and the area, and a big increase for me, but it kinda feels weird knowing I'm in essence leaving money on the table.

This is likely hypothetical, or at the very least getting ahead of myself, since it is a remote job advertised widely, with no guarantees that I'll get an interview, much less an offer. But it isn't a situation I've encountered before and I'm curious what people would do.

Don't name a number. If they ask, say the band they advertised suits you. If it comes to an offer, evaluate and counter based on the market. If you're coming from another industry and don't have direct experience, you're likely to be at the bottom of the range. But don't do anything other than say the range is acceptable until you have an offer in hand.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2018 00:29

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

shame on an IGA posted:

That's going to be an absolutely miserable place to work and nothing of value will be lost if you just walk away.

Can you imagine going through that process every single year for your adjustments or raises?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2018 15:41

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Xtronoc posted:

So hear me out thread: 6 months ago, I got an internship at a small firm from a job board, promising x salary if the internship gets upgraded to a full time offer. Just a few days ago, the boss likes me, I like the place, sends me an offer that is about $8,000 off from x salary 6 months ago. Ask for a raise, but he only gave me a few more holidays. He must have think I forgot about the job posting. What's best way about this? I still have the saved job post with x salary, and I think I will send it as an attachment nonchalantly without any comments in the email?

Don't be passive aggressive about it. Sending it as an attachment with no comments just sends the message that you won't even confront him about it, let alone leave over it. Research your market worth and ask for that. What was in the original post is meaningless, and what you think you're worth is meaningless. Find out what the market says you're worth and ask for that.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2018 01:53

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Eric the Mauve posted:

On the other hand, don't work for people who lie to you. And especially don't let people get away with lying to you and continue to work for them anyway.

There are so many bullshit bureaucratic and HR reasons why this could be a simple misunderstanding that I would say it's oddly aggressive to jump straight to saying the counterparty is lying. It's completely possible. But assume good will and trust, but verify.

# ¿ Oct 9, 2018 04:53

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Eric the Mauve posted:

Also if you have to prepare a speech to give to HR about how you won't stand being exploited anymore, you're doing it entirely wrong and it's already too late

This is good advice.

Eric the Mauve posted:

There's probably a much longer post that would need to be written about this, and it should probably be written by someone who thinks more clearly than I do, but... everywhere you go in life and meet new people, they immediately test you, always. It's just how people are wired. A new job, new class, new relationship, new neighbors, everything: the first thing people do is test you in a hundred subtle ways to see what your boundaries are, what you will and won't tolerate and accept.

This is incredibly cynical advice. It's not that people are purposefully testing you; most are just treating you like they usually treat people. They assume you'll tell them if you prefer to be treated differently.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2018 22:54

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

teardrop posted:

If I push back my start date and sign, but get a better offer and withdraw my acceptance before my first day, does that make it more or less lovely than showing up for a few weeks? The people who gave me the offer seem really nice and I hate to do this, it�s just that they only have an entry level position open and don�t do a lot of promotions, so I feel like I can find better soon. Maybe I won�t seem like a monster if I tell them when I�m jumping ship �a company I applied with prior to accepting finally got back to me with an offer of +X, unless you can match that I need to take this opportunity to provide for my family.�

There's no way to accept an offer and then back out without burning bridges.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 23:23

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Eric the Mauve posted:

No, like 97% of the population you are confusing Right To Work with At-Will Employment.

As for your bigger question, let me answer that with a question: if they hire you, and three weeks later a VP's nephew who does what you do becomes unemployed, how much loyalty do you think the company would show to you?

Once again, thanks for providing the most cynical take possible.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 23:24

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

teardrop posted:

I have 8 years of experience as a chemist (at 1 company, never promoted), Sr Chemist type postings require 5-10, this position is a lateral move from manufacturing to R&D which requires 1-3 years of experience and 1 of their interviewers privately told me I�m overqualified. It�s possible I�ll bomb all my interviews for Sr Chemist but a recruiter told me I can get interviews and ask 85k based on my experience, and got me that interview next week.

Where are you located? Also, is your experience in quality?

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 23:38

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

teardrop posted:

Currently Phoenix, can relocate immediately.

Yes, quality. This does open up some management opportunities (just had an interview) and I can also spin it towards analytical chemist if needed. I have a master�s which helps with analytical and R&D.

Quality is looked down upon in R&D and so is analytical to a lesser extent. I don't know the market in Phoenix, but $70k is 90th percentile in North Carolina for a similar role. $85k is doable in some markets. When you go on Sr. Chemist interviews, emphatically state what you can do in terms of completing projects. People who can run the gear and get results are a dime a dozen. The people who get promoted and get the $$$ are the people who can take a project, understand its business impact without coaching, run the project, and communicate the results and impact without their manager having to do it for them. They also gotta play the game well enough to interact with other business units in a positive way. You need to be able to explain chemistry to salesmen without them feeling condescended to at that level.

Good luck!

# ¿ Nov 6, 2018 01:53

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

It's foolish to show any loyalty to an institution that doesn't reciprocate it. Is it less cynical if I say "The very minute firing you becomes profitable for the company, they will do so"? That's the condition almost any job operates under, and also exactly what you're doing in turn by quitting upon getting a better offer, even if it's three weeks after you've started during training.

Firing someone that was just hired has a negative impact on morale for the rest of the team (unless that person was a gently caress-up) and morale strongly correlates with productivity. Business looks out for profit, but good business also realizes that their primary asset (in most industries) is a strong workforce.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2018 01:55

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

General Probe posted:

Now while this is a decent range I know this will be a high stress position with a lot of responsibilities and $78K is at the VERY bottom of the scale. I was thinking of asking for $93K and hoping to end up at ~$83K. Is there anything I should look out for?

Well, only three years in the field and being promoted as part of on-boarding would put you at the very bottom of the scale, realistically. Go ahead and ask, though. Worst case scenario is they reveal that they're assholes.

# ¿ Nov 7, 2018 00:00

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Tetramin posted:

I�ve been reading through the last 15 pages or so of this thread(too late, just accepted an offer but I had no leverage and don�t feel bad about living on the comp for a couple of years).

My question is regarding non-competes which hopefully isn�t too off topic. I was unemployed for about 6mo between jobs but the company I start with on Monday is a customer of previous employer. I�ll be working directly with previous companies support team as a part of my new role. I�ve read all the paperwork I have from previous company and all I�ve got is that there is some sort of non compete agreement but I don�t have the details.

I know they�re largely unenforceable but do software companies often have non competes with their customers? I think a couple of former coworkers went to work for partners/customers while I was there so my general feeling is no, but it would really suck to have to spend money on an attorney to keep this new job that I�m really excited about.

Great thread btw

They oftentimes have non-poach agreements. But, given you were unemployed, it's unlikely to apply even if they have one. Doubly so if they fired or laid you off. Also, initiating a law suit against a current or recently former employee will result in a lot of damage to morale so it's not a thing reasonable companies take lightly. It might be worth the piece of mind to consult a local employment attorney and just lay out the scenario and ask her advice. A consult would probably be in the $100-$200 range.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2018 22:58

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Sock The Great posted:

This could be the wrong thread, but since PTO keeps coming up I think this question is relevant.

My employer is closed on New Years Eve this year (usually we are open but since it's sandwiched between a Sunday and NYD they decided to close) and they are forcing everyone to save a vacation day for this. Is this allowed it common at all?

I suppose I understand limiting how many days you can roll over to the following year, but to me vacation time is part of my compensation. So for them to dictate that I need to use a day for what is a non-holiday is akin to them telling me.how to spend my paycheck.

It's lovely, but legal.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2018 23:03

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

redcheval posted:

That position required me to move to an expensive city several states away, which I'm unable to do at this time.

Not to dogpile or anything, but $70k in a low cost-of-living area >> $85k in a high cost-of-living area.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2018 02:52

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

redcheval posted:

Yeah, I'm sorry, I was completely misreading almost everyone's tone. For my posts that came across as defensive, I was trying to say that my hands are tied BATNA-wise, and is it ever worth it to ask for a raise anyway? I can see how I didn't make that very clear. That job offer I did receive wasn't one I applied for, that company tried to poach me but the location change was required and I'm stuck here for a while yet. I didn't mention this but I've tried and failed to procure other remote jobs instead (it's a small industry, and remote jobs are just super rare) and resigned myself to the fact that a new job is a year or two down the road at least. So I've been struggling with deciding between "ask for a raise and see what happens" or "just don't ask for one, and wait it out until I can move" was the better option.

This is a common mistake almost everyone competent makes early in their career. They take the promotion without asking for more pay. Once you do that, it's really hard to come back later and get more money.

redcheval posted:

e: for a thread-relevant topic, I've read in this thread and elsewhere that bringing offers to your current company to get a counter-offer should actually be avoided because your company will know you have a foot out the door and try to get rid of you even if they do give you the raise. Is that true? Are you better off just taking the new offer every time?

Yes. You were looking for a reason and unless you know exactly what that reason was and find it resolved to your satisfaction, you should always take the other offer. And as you pointed out, crappy bosses will start trying to replace you even if you stay and are happy.

# ¿ Nov 29, 2018 01:08

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

teardrop posted:

I just read Never Split the Difference as recommended in this thread, and the author recommends saying a range (and picking non-round numbers to make it look like you've put more thought into it). So if your target is $90k, saying "$90,250 to 104,500 would be fair." He says they will ignore the larger number except it serves as an anchor that makes the smaller number seem more reasonable. This contradicts the OP.

Who is right?

Saying $90,250 instead of $90k is going to make you look like you're playing games and will come off as oddly aggressive. The problem with trying to anchor with the larger number is that there's an information disparity. The hiring manager knows what the budget is and what they pay everyone else at the company with similar roles. So they're already anchored on that internal number before you even walk in the door. So they'll just see the lower number and think that's what you need to take the job. Do the research and figure out what you're worth and what you'll take. Then state that number and say it depends on benefits and total compensation. That gives you flexibility to ask higher later and also gives you an out to take a lower number later if you need.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2018 02:43

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Jordan7hm posted:

Yeah, I get that. I think the blanket "don't accept additional responsibility without additional compensation" advice can lead to pretty stagnant careers though.

The advice is really just "don't get hosed by your employer".

I kinda agree. I'd say it's "If you accept additional responsibility and don't get paid for it within a year, start looking for a new job."

# ¿ Dec 8, 2018 02:16

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Deformed Church posted:

I've got my annual review coming up next week and I have no real idea how to negotiate the potential raise a) because it's babbys first job and b) because I got where I am in a slightly weird way. I've got a few questions to help myself feel it out, I'm hoping this is the right place to ask? I've fudged some minor details below to hopefully slightly obscure my identity if my coworkers happen to be goons.

Question 1: The crux of the matter, I started here as a temp a little over two years ago doing data entry, and then the role expanded and they eventually took me on as permanent about eight months ago. Should I view the current contract within isolation and base my review off the past eight months, or can I view myself as having been here for two years? I had a significant growth in both my skills and my responsibilities over the temping (as below) but the role hasn't changed much since I signed a permanent contract eight months ago, as I'll explain below I hosed up and didn't actually get much more compensation for my being more valuable at the change of contract - did I miss my chance entirely to talk about what happened when I was a temp?

If there's any chance it's worth considering what happened before, I've got more question below.

Question 2: Kind of an extension of the above, but with numbers. When I was temping, I was earning �10 an hour plus �20 per day travel allowance, which is �19500 on the hourly plus about �5000 in travel over the year. As a permanent employee, I'm earning �25000/year, which basically comes out as almost exactly the same. The only real new benefit is a slightly friendlier leave arrangement. From the perspective of my budget sheet, I've taken in �25000/year for the two years and want an increase in year three, at least to keep up with inflation and rent increases. On the other hand, I think it's possible they could separate the hourly pay from the benefit and say I had a 25% raise less than a year ago. Internally, my line is that I should have more money to live on at 24 than I did at 21, I just have no idea how much I can argue that. Which way is my employer likely to view it? If they do want to look at the pay for the work in isolation rather than my total compensation package, is there any point at all in arguing the other way?

Question 3: Again, pretty similar to the above, but about my skills and responsibilities. When I agreed the temp contract I was newly graduated and the work was just data entry of recurring legal compliance checks as they transferred software systems, with my work being fairly heavily audited. After that, I knew that system the best and started to help schedule the checks, which shifted over to the point where I'm now the main person managing it with little oversight. This in itself feels pretty major. I've also been trained in several of the technical systems we use and am the first point of contact for dealing with them, both in terms of actually doing things and being able to communicate with consultants. I do basic IT for the office (toner changes, clicking through errors, holding the power button). It's not expert level work, but it's skills most of my colleagues lack and me doing it saves time, effort and call-out charges. I also pick up other parts of the business if people are out of the office or swamped, so I've got a lot of knowledge across the business. Most of that progress happened while I was the temp, and while my experience and knowledge have grown since becoming a permanent employee it's not such a major change. Is there much point in trying to present all that as personal progress when I'm putting my case forward?

Obviously the correct answer is it to take all my personal growth and go work somewhere else, but I can do this sooner and they've already offered to give me more training so I'll think about a new job later in the year.

It never hurts to ask, but you're in a pretty weak position here. You just received a pretty major raise in the form of a permanent job over temp work, even if it didn't come with a big pay raise. You can and should ask for a bump of inflation plus a couple percent, though. You're best off increasing your skills and improving your network. That'll pay off either way.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2019 01:22

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Cyril Sneer posted:

I figure this is the best thread to ask this in: how does one go about assessing a consulting fee rate? More specifically, I was (very) recently let go from my company, however given the nature of my roll there, I suspect they'll reach out to me for some consulting work. How do I figure out how much to charge them?

Make sure to have a minimum number of hours too. No matter how much you ask for, it's not really worth it if you only get 1-2 hours out of it.

# ¿ Jan 11, 2019 22:14

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Why don't you just name a high number that you would definitely accept that's above what you got hosed on but at least within a realm of reasonableness?

Say that the recruiter told them $90K. Asking for $120K is probably reasonable as a negotiating starting point. Asking for $180K is probably not.

Eh.... Asking for $120k when the recruiter said $90k is great if the market says $105k. Much less so if the market says $85k. Know your market.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2019 04:01

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Eric the Mauve posted:

Don't work on your startup at the office unless getting sued sounds like a good time to you

Also, keep a lab notebook or whatever the equivalent in your industry is. Even if it's just you jotting down notes, they generally hold up well in court.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2019 20:50

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Tim Thomas posted:

I�m a computer toucher/industrial guy, I can just point to JIRA and GIT along with email traffic and the simple fact that I�m onsite managing a team, but this gets back to my usual policy of running anything not work related on a different system that I remote into.

That's not my focus, so I'm a little unclear. Are you running JIRA and GIT at work, so you can point to everything else being yours? Or do you run JIRA/GIT on your personal projects?

# ¿ Feb 6, 2019 23:27

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

Please interview anywhere else and just get another number, any other number. Threatening to interview is silly - you get a vague mark of disloyalty without the upside of another job offer to go with it. Interview before worrying about your current company once the offer is in hand. I know change is a big deal but you gotta feel what it actually is to be offered a new job for a bunch more money.

Totally agree. When you make a feckless threat, all you're doing is telling people you're not willing to take action. Go get the other number in hand and negotiate from a position of strength.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2019 03:44

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Sobriquet posted:

Sorry one more question. I think it�s kind of standard to see language in the offer or informal offer to the effect of �we don�t lowball with our offer like other companies, since we thing negotiating starts the relationship on the wrong foot.�

Any suggestions for countering this? For example �I appreciate that your offer is in good faith, but...� Or should I just not address it in my counter offer? Does the strategy differ depending on how much more I�m asking for?

If someone tries to punish you for negotiating, they're an asshat and they will be a terrible boss to work for.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2019 22:02

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Bloody Cat Farm posted:

Yeah that sucks. I don�t have written proof. The same thing was told to another guy who started at the same time as I did. I could have him say that he was told the same thing, except he left the company. Ugh. This whole thing is frustrating.

gently caress your current company. Apply aggressively and find a new job that isn't as loving lovely as your current employer.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2019 01:50

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Busy Bee posted:

The company I work for just laid off a significant amount of it's work force. The team that I'm on just consisted of me and my boss who they decided to let go so now I am responsible for his tasks as well. I'm extremely overloaded with work and I am the only person in the whole company that can do what I can do.

My boss had 5 years of experience while I have only 1.5 years with the company - what would you recommend I do here? I always felt underpaid before but my boss informed me of a promotion coming last month. Now since the company had to lay off so many people, no one is sure what's going to happen anymore.

I have been looking for opportunities in the meantime.

Phone it in. Do the bare minimum. Don't take it personally and don't burn out. Reach out to your old boss and ask if she'll be a reference. Offer to help with her job hunt if you're in a position to. If she liked you and thought you good at your job, you have a good shot at being hired by her again if she lands another management job.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2019 21:36

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Busy Bee posted:

I really appreciate everyone's comments and advice. I already started networking and looking at other opportunities a few days after they laid off my boss.

Another stressful aspect of my current situation is that the woman that I now report to is, out of my career, the most immature and patronizing person I have ever had to report to. When it comes to work, she's very knowledgeable but her emotional intelligence is lacking and she constantly patronizes me and it is clear that she does not take me or my capabilities seriously. This is the complete polar opposite of my previous boss that they laid off. This isn't my first job so I really understood and appreciated how amazing my previous boss that they laid off was and I never ever took a day with him for granted. He trusted me, was always respectful, and always had my back.

I guess this situation just adds more determination in me to find a new opportunity somewhere else but any advice would also be appreciated. There are some work days where my mood does a complete 180 and I not only feel underappreciated, I feel that I have the whole weight of the company on my shoulders. I will not overwork my self and prioritize my job search.

Pretend you're a xenobiologist observing an alien culture. They're weirdos and you're just documenting it all.

# ¿ Apr 6, 2019 21:07

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Jordan7hm posted:

I�m not sure about this. There�s at least one study to suggest that the bolstering range increases both the average value of the negotiated rate and the chance of a successful negotiated settlement.

Important to remember that lots of people on both sides aren�t necessarily experienced negotiators.

This is absolutely horrible advice. If you're negotiating for a salary, you're doing it with someone who, on average, has done it much more often than you, has a better understanding of the market rate, and has the information about how much the company is willing to pay. The guy that makes salary offers at my job is the guy who negotiates multi-million dollar contracts with multi-national blue chip companies.

Assuming the other party is a chump is a dangerous tactic that will probably land you on a team run by a chump.

Normally I disagree with EtM for being too pessimistic, but I 100% agree with him in this case.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2019 00:41

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Jordan7hm posted:

A bolstering range starts by taking your single point that you would have said and adding a second, higher, number to the other end of the range.

Like at some point you�re going to have a number. You can move it up, but you eventually get to a number. What do you lose with a range that starts there. What is the argument for not saying 150-200 instead of saying 150? That there is a chance they only hear 150?

Why not say 150-2000?

# ¿ Apr 11, 2019 03:09

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Jordan7hm posted:

Then why not say 200-250.

Again, you do pick a number at some point. You're not couching anything.

There are two things behind the theory - one is that you will potentially be able to get more money out of them. The other is that you are potentially more likely to reach any kind of negotiated settlement. The fact you're stating a range is implying that you're open to negotiating.

This is horrible advice. If you state a range, the other party is just going to hear the bottom of the range. There is no benefit to stating a range. A better way to signal that you're open to negotiation is to state the top number of the range and say you're flexible and that salary depends on benefits and total compensation.

There's a reason the thread title is what it is.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2019 23:08

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Simpsons Reference posted:

Any tips for negotiating with a company that seriously underpays its employees? Other than leave the negotiating table?

I've been working as a temp staff accountant at a small law firm for the past several weeks. But I've been functioning as their accounting manager, AR/AP manager, billing manager, IT guy etc since the beginning, and I'm unofficially managing two people.

They want to hire me permanently because they trust me now, but also out of desperation and not wanting to pay the recruiting agency rate anymore. And that's great- they will officially give me the title of accounting manager and establish clear lines of authority, but the rate of pay in preliminary discussions? Ridiculous.

Right now I'm getting just over the median for a staff accountant from the recruiter, who is charging the law firm double that. The number floated in the conversation about going perm was actually going backwards -- less than the recruiter is paying me. No benefits, no other perks.

I was hoping to get something like 66% of what the recruiter was charging, as I stepped up above and beyond what they were looking for, but they really want to keep payroll down. They have a couple attorneys on staff that make 40k, and this is Boston. They really do need me, but then again I kind of need this as well because I lucked my way in to "management" when all I could get before was AR and AP jobs. I'm hoping to springboard to something much better after this.

Anything I can request in the way of perks that can push the needle a bit? Or instead of as big a raise, cut down my work week to four days or something? This is the first time I've had to tell a company that they can't afford me.

Walk away. Even if you successfully negotiate up, this sounds like the type of place that will punish you with no COLAs or raises for a decade. They clearly don't value you and that's unlikely to change. Small law firms are loving terrible in this regard.

# ¿ Apr 20, 2019 06:49

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Simpsons Reference posted:

What I have working against me is that my recent work history is a little questionable, with some short term positions and gaps. And if I go back to searching for jobs, it's likely back down to staff level. The title of manager, if a little embellished, is a big boost to my career. I'm hoping to turn this in to a large step up in salary when I jump ship.

Talked to the recruiter, who suggests countering with a modest step up in pay, a six month review, more flexible schedule, and bonus eligibility.

If you're currently gainfully employed, walk away. That's some bullshit. A six month review will never happen, Unlimited PTO is a trap for new employees, and bonus eligibility is completely meaningless unless it's guaranteed. Don't get paid in promises.

# ¿ Apr 24, 2019 01:16

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Good-Natured Filth posted:

I recently talked to a recruiter about a position in another state that I'd be very interested in. I am in no way interested in moving, however. Is it a waste of time going through the process with the intention of countering any offer I were to receive with "I'll take $X,000 less if I can work remotely"? Or should I be up-front about my "no-moving" policy and definitely ruin any chances I'd have at interviewing?

I'm in software, and have a lot of experience working remotely, so it's not a hard thing to imagine someone doing. And based on the salary range the recruiter gave me, I could afford to make that X reduction pretty high.

Just be up-front about your remote requirement. No sense burning bridges for something that was never going to happen anyway.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2019 00:21

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 18:37

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Fhqwhgads posted:

It's a cynic vs optimist thing. The cynical approach (they will string me along as a cheap VP while they make me do Director work) is obviously what they'd do, and I'm not honestly thinking otherwise. But on the other hand, I have to stay in an optimistic mindset and also play the game a little. Ultimately yeah, I don't have another job offer in hand (right now), so gently caress you pay me doesn't work, but I would feel remiss for at least not making it known to them that I am thinking about that. Right now there's a lot of reshuffling and reorg going on right now and I want to try to place myself in a position to benefit from it, so I felt like if I said nothing at all then I'd be easily forgotten. If I said something, at least I'd know I tried before they said lolno.

Edit: To your edit, because of how slow things move here, right now could very well be a legit "prove yourself" time. If I get the promotion, great, if not, I've got one hell of a bullet on my resume.

You know the people involved and the office culture better than anyone in this thread. Going out and getting another offer in hand before negotiating can work against you, because I guarantee the C-suite will start secession planning for your inevitable departure. However, it can be the best way to get paid too.

You're high enough up that everything is a 1-off. Play the game.

# ¿ May 7, 2019 01:53

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

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