The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

Mantle: May 15, 2004

stellers bae posted:

So that senior director thing finally came back to me after so many goddamned interviews with literally everyone, and even a few re-interviews with the same people.

They've decided to in fact offer me senior director (instead of the bait-and-switch director thing) @ ~~$185k~~ $180k w/ 'discretionary' 5% bonus. (edit: literally as I was writing this, the internal recruiter called me to say they misread my offer as $185k and it was actually $180k...? lol)

I see my options like this:

* Just accept. Tempted to not do this as literally every time I've negotiated it's worked out well for me, but the hiring manager did say he 'fought for a higher comp' for me on this offer (which seems kinda ridiculous that you'd ever comp a senior director at less than this in a HCOL area, even though this is a remote job)

* Counter at $200k-ish. I really, really want to earn $200k because ~~my dad is rich and maybe this will make him respect and love me~~ I have many important things to buy and this seems like a 'big boy/girl' amount of money. I have no basis to really request this except the fact that they've been searching for months and are dumb enough to think I'm their best option. Also I'm lazy and I already earn $124k w/ 15% bonus at a pretty chill job, so earning not even 40k more a year to realistically work twice as much doesn't seem worth it. Plus no bonus/stock makes this base number pretty important.

* Counter at my current job. I know this is usually a bad idea, but we just hired another person at the same level on my team and they earn $11k more than I do. Earning $11k more at the chill job seems pretty sweet too, and even if I piss off my current employer I feel pretty confident at finding a similar job pretty quickly.

What about instead of counter at your current job, you just ask for $11k more without disclosing that you have another offer on the table?

# ¿ May 25, 2021 18:23

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 12:14

Mantle: May 15, 2004

stellers bae posted:

It's not a bad idea but my current employer is super bureaucratic - I don't think they'd realistically be able to give me a response within the timeframe that I have to accept/reject the offer.

The point is that there is a nonzero chance that they give you $11k, and no downside to asking (since you didn't disclose the other offer).

If they say no, and then you immediately give notice that's a pretty strong signal to them to stop dicking their best employees around over $11k which raises the tide for all boats.

# ¿ May 25, 2021 21:56

Mantle: May 15, 2004

thotsky posted:

So, they've responded to my counter offer saying they had to "adjust the budget for the role to get as close as we can to your requested number". and that "X is as high as we can go for this particular role" They're still below what I consider my minimum. Overtime compensation is apparently completely off the table, but expected, so I really wanted more. Do I counter offer again with something closer to their offer or do I take them on their word that this is a high as they can go? Does the wording regarding role mean I could argue for a different / expanded role definition or something or am I grasping at straws?

I know Americans don't like using offers in negotiation with current employers, but that's pretty common here. I'm already in negotiation with them and will see if I can get them to match it. Would the increased BATNA from such a thing be relevant at all or do I have to take their word for it that they've gone as high as they can (keep in mind I know for a fact that people in equivalent roles are being paid more)?

What's not clear is what you actually want. Your offer is for less than what you're currently making, yet you're still considering a move. This indicates to me that there's something other than money motivating you, but it seems like you are only considering salary as part of your BATNA. BATNA is not just about money, it's about your alternative as a whole.

If the offer isn't better than your BATNA, you never take it-- this is an objective statement.

# ¿ May 26, 2021 19:18

Mantle: May 15, 2004

TheParadigm posted:

I'm not a superb or practiced negotiator, but my off the cuff reaction to that is:

"Thats the power of being their #1 (or last standing #1) pick!"

Yup, a lovely BATNA works both ways. Good job goon!

# ¿ Jun 2, 2021 22:34

Mantle: May 15, 2004

MJP posted:

Negoontiation thread, I could use a pointer maybe.

I got an offer for a job that I would like to do. It is a significant pay bump. Benefits, team culture, the stuff I'd do, hybrid arrangement in mid-September (tolerable, but doable). I'd happily say yes to it. Benefits line up nicely with where I'm at.

My current role has a pretty good annual bonus that paid out even during 'rona. I'd be leaving halfway through the year, so I'd be forfeiting a good chunk of change. I asked %newplace% about the possibility of a sign-on bonus - they said they don't do it for anyone.

%newjob% gives 35 days PTO (yeah, it includes sick days/bereavement/etc.) which does beat out my current 20 days. Also, it's not the dinosauric bureaucracy and set-up-to-fail situation that I'm in - last man standing, everyone else in my team quit. Help is on the way in the form of a 3-month contractor but nothing on a permanent fill.

Their BATNA: they go to the next candidate down the line

My BATNA: If I pass, I'll still be in my current situation, open to being hired elsewhere or trying to transfer internally

I'm about 70% leaning towards taking the offer - is there anything else I should be angling for here? I don't think they'd give more PTO since they're way above average for a US employer.

edit: BTW, the OP speaks truth, way early in the process they asked my expectations, and I basically had this happen
[img]https://i.imgur.com/AgrHXMa.png[/timg]

The offer is $10k over the top end, heck yes

Maybe you can couch the sign-on bonus in other terms that are more palatable to %newjob%. Maybe call it a professional development budget or a home office budget?

# ¿ Jun 3, 2021 22:45

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Owlspiracy posted:

yea they have the offer written up, called me to tell me the terms (and say the letter was forthcoming), and are sending it tomorrow and basically said 'we want you, take as long as you need'

At the call before the formal offer, normally I would say something I look forward to reviewing the offer in its entirety or something noncommittal like that.

You can respond with something like I'm really excited to work with you and I think we're really close but the offer is under what I'm looking for right now. I'm willing to come down to $92k in order to make this work for both of us.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2021 22:52

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Deadite posted:

Ugh, I'm so sick of trying to negotiate with this company. Prior to this current role, I turned down two offers because the salary was too low. I told the current recruiter this, and even gave my floor for a new position. I was told it wasn't a problem, went through four interviews, and the offer came in $10,000 under the floor I gave. Why waste everyone's time like this?

Time to blacklist this company I think.

Name it so I can blacklist it too

# ¿ Sep 20, 2021 23:41

Mantle: May 15, 2004

I'm applying to an interesting software engineering job at Stanford and their application form forces you to select a salary expectation between $30k and $300k. I've reached out directly to the hiring manager who is an acquaintance and executive director of the program and he's asked me to apply through the intake. What should I select? Is it bad form to ask for salary range for the position at this time?

# ¿ Oct 14, 2021 01:47

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Seems like you're way underselling yourself if after you negotiated a deal, the counterparty asked you to increase the amount to pay you.

# ¿ Nov 30, 2021 00:11

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Mine was $12k but I got a government grant that paid for all but $2k. :canada:

I had a job within a month of graduating, total opportunity cost from when I quit my previous job was 4 months.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2022 20:22

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Mniot posted:

Some things to watch out for with coding bootcamps: (1) there's no accreditation so make sure you get references for the bootcamp and understand how likely you are to get a job after

One thing I did which I think helped me make the right decision on which bootcamp to take was to use LinkedIn to search for alumni to see what kind of jobs they ended up doing and how successful they were in getting into the market.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2022 06:02

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Dobbs_Head posted:

I was shocked at how well they nailed my current salary. I certainly did NOT tell them, and it�s actually illegal for them to ask here so it didn�t come up.

A few weeks ago I read that this data is available for purchase via Equifax or something.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2022 19:14

Mantle: May 15, 2004

air- posted:

Gotcha thanks for the tips. I'll go with a password protected zip! Still stuck out to me since the HR persons emails has all kinds of all caps red text about being cautious of external senders, attachments etc lmao

A password protected zip is fine for casual snooping, but it is susceptible to cracking using regular home computing power if the password is word-based or is in a wordlist like rockyou.txt.

Depending on how long it is important to keep the information private, you may want to use something like this brute force benchmark as a guide, assuming a tool-generated password: https://zerotoroot.me/an-idiot-guide-to-bruteforcing/

# ¿ Feb 11, 2022 00:21

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Inner Light posted:

I've said that before and they counter by sending you the generic 75 page corp benefits PDF and saying 'there you go, now tell me whether it will work for you' so you will need to push back again lol.

An honest answer for me is that often it also depends on how interesting the work is or the culture of the team I'm joining and I can't know those things until later in the interview process.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2022 21:09

Mantle: May 15, 2004

I've known the CTO of a startup as an acquaintance for about a year and he's courting me for an "intermediate/senior team lead" (?) role to free him up from doing double duty as one of the team leads. I had a catch up call with him last week and he wanted me to continue with meeting the CEO and one of the product leads.

I agreed with the idea that I wanted to learn more about the CEO's values and vision for the team, but most of the time was him talking about the company performance and he didn't leave me any time to ask him any deep questions.

At the end of the call he started saying things like

"I need to know your salary expectations"
"This is the negotiation, we are going to make you an offer"
"Only fresh grads don't know what they are worth"
"We only have 2 mins left in this call for you to tell me your expectations"

I was not expecting an offer negotiation call because I don't think either of us know about each other at this point. So I countered with

"What is in your standard package"
"I need to know more about the total offer"

and ran out the clock. In the end he relented and said they would make an offer without knowing my expectations.

Is there another way I could have played this to get more information? I still don't feel like I have enough information to decide whether to accept an offer even if one is on the table. How can I get more information about the culture of the company now that I've already had a round with the CEO? Ask to meet some of the dev team?

Honestly the CEO's non-answers to my cultural and vision questions plus his pushiness are turning me off.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2022 01:08

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Don't you usually have to work to stop CEOs from talking about their values and vision? Something very strange going on there.

Well, when I said at the end of the call that I needed more information to come up with a salary expectation, like asking about his vision he said something like "I already talked about that. My vision is to build up the company and sell it to Google." I want to know more about things like what the vision is for the culture of the company. Are honesty and openness valued? Is diversity seen as a strength or an obligation?

# ¿ Apr 21, 2022 01:37

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Parallelwoody posted:

No you aren't allowed to do this. It's illegal. You understand at-will employment right? If you're fairly confident you can do better just tell them what it would take you to accept or rescind your acceptance and move on with life. They either say yes or tell you sorry final offer take it or leave it.

Since I don't live in capitalist hellworld, I don't understand at-will employment. What exactly about at-will employment would make it illegal to tell your employer that you got a better offer and give them an opportunity to match?

# ¿ Apr 27, 2022 22:41

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Lol I hosed up at my last interview round saying I wanted to talk to an engineer before having them decide whether or not to extend an offer.

Today they came back to me saying they are too busy to have an engineer talk to me (for 30 mins??) and asked if I am ready to make a decision to join with the info I have now.

Basically I have the info that I don't really want to join but I'm interested in seeing an offer to judge my market value. How can I phrase it to get them to reveal this info without me burning a bridge?

# ¿ Apr 28, 2022 01:28

Mantle: May 15, 2004

I might be taking on a short 3 week software dev contract to rewrite a TypeScript microservice in Python. The contract would be with a NYC based consultancy, I don't know who the client is. I'd be working on this project after hours of my regular 40hr/week job. The consultancy is looking for 20-40 hours over those 3 weeks.

I want to negotiate on a per project-basis rather than an hourly basis. How can I frame the discussion in these terms? I have little experience in consultancy work so I'm not sure how to approach this.

e: What effective hourly rate is reasonable? I would self identify as an intermediate dev.

Mantle fucked around with this message at 01:31 on May 13, 2022

# ¿ May 13, 2022 01:28

Mantle: May 15, 2004

I've heard rumblings that asking for $100/hr is gonna be too much but I kind of feel like if I'm gonna be doing this after a whole regular day of work I want to be paid overtime rates at least. It also doesn't seem totally unreasonable in this market.

# ¿ May 13, 2022 09:27

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Guinness posted:

I wouldn�t do contract dev work for less than $200/hr, especially as a moonlight gig when I already have a job. Maybe $150 if I really liked the person/company/project, but even that�s a big maybe.

If you knocked on the door of even a low tier agency around here you�d be paying nearly 200/hr for the equivalent of junior devs, and much more for someone actually good. Granted there�s a middleman in the equation, but it�s still the going rate.

Especially do not do flat rate work. That is the path of pain.

Yeah after sober second thoughts I am ok with letting this opportunity go if doesn't pay enough to make it worth it to moonlight.

I was distracted by knowing my friend is getting $90/hr as a full timer, but his situation has no bearing on what it would cost to make me happy doing it after hours.

# ¿ May 13, 2022 19:01

Mantle: May 15, 2004

demostars posted:

Not a retail job, it's actually more of a sales position that I wasn't making any commission for. The guy is the owner and told me last year they broke seven figures of revenue for the first time ever, with plans of doubling that to $2.5 million this year. For reference, my average sale was probably around $3500. I didn't manage to make a lot of sales because I was hired late into the season, though, so altogether my sales were worth about $50k (my coworker who started earlier than me sold closer to $200k IIRC). Still, though, I'm not sure if I'm the most persuasive person in the world for sales and so am fine with just being hourly if I'm making more than I could anywhere else. The job also requires you to know how to use Google Earth effectively so it's fairly niche in terms of overall skills needed. I feel like I don't really have a BATNA so maybe you're right that it may not be worth it to push too hard for a raise, but I also don't know what their BATNA is either if they don't get me again which makes me feel like I have leverage.

I dunno, say I don't do much better than last season and only do $75k worth of sales. How much of that would an average salesman get as commission? I guess that's a bigger indicator of whether or not 23/hr is actually fair to ask for, because maybe I'm underestimating my own worth even with that number.

Stealth edit: Also, in retrospect, my coworker who also didn't make commission got ripped the gently caress off for doing 4x my numbers and getting the same hourly rate as me, right? (Less until I was hired.) Technically he was permanent and full-time versus my part-time and got some extra benefits because of that, but he probably makes beaucoup bucks anywhere he gets a commission, right?

Edit 2: To clarify, the person I'm talking to is the COO of the company, but it is technically a subsidiary of a larger company and he probably will have to talk to someone else about the raise.

Hey Boss,

I understand we broke seven figs of revenue last year and the plan is to hit $2.5m this year. In order to do that I'm anticipating we will be wanting to hire more sales staff and train them with experienced staff from last year. Given my experience with the role and my specialized skills in in Google Earth I'd be happy to come back and help grow the team so we can hit our revenue target. This season I'm looking to hit $23/hr or a base rate + commission that will get me there. Let me know what your plans are for the department this year and if we can make things work.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2022 22:27

Mantle: May 15, 2004

JohnCompany posted:

If you want to accept the offer as written, just email your contact back: "Hey, super excited to start our collaboration. What do you need me to do to confirm acceptance, since there's no spot for my signature on the letter?"

Strictly speaking this response is not acceptance so it does not crystallize a contract. If op wants to accept, they should say so explicitly in the response.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2023 16:55

Mantle: May 15, 2004

In my experience, a big part of becoming a better negotiator is training your emotional state to not get flustered when pressed on saying a number. I relate it to getting used to rejection when asking a girl out. If you don't practice putting yourself in that situation, you will always be nervous.

For me the tipping point was when I was asked for my current salary at a screening call. I resisted a bit but thought if the company was asking in good faith, they would be willing to disclose the range for the position if I disclosed.

I told them what I was making, then asked them for the range. They said sorry that's confidential.

Since then, I have never disclosed.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2023 20:14

Mantle: May 15, 2004

What I've seen as the way to negotiate in government or union roles is to negotiate for higher stepping within the salary band for the role. Like instead of coming in at level one of the role, come in at level three.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2023 15:59

Mantle: May 15, 2004

"I don't have a salary target when I'm interviewing companies because my biggest concern is finding the right cultural fit."

# ¿ Jul 18, 2023 17:58

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Some stories that really help illustrate the principle of why it's not good to say number first unless you know your value

It's easy to underprice your product (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36776939

# ¿ Jul 19, 2023 23:13

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Here's an anecdote to illustrate the amount of power you have as a new hire:

The local transit authority posted 2 openings with a range of $100-$120k. My wife applied and during the screening phase, she anchored her expectations at $110-115k.

The first offer came in at $98k, and I advised her to ask for $120k because the hiring manager said she was offering a lot of skills for the position that were hard to find. She countered with $110 and a counter offer came in at $102 which she accepted.

After accepting, she found out the transit authority wasn't even able to fill the second position.

I think it was a huge opportunity missed because the HR would have to explain to the hiring manager why the offer was rejected when the ask was within the budgeted range. But in the end, it's not me that has to live with the decision (or the risk).

So the moral of the story is to loving push harder when you are fielding offers because it's your best chance to have the employer over a barrel.

# ¿ Aug 26, 2023 18:09

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Magnetic North posted:

You know what I heard twice last week? Not the usual "What is a range you'd accept" or "What total comp are you expecting for this role" song and dance that I'm used to. They directly asked "What did you make at your last job?" Like, that is absolutely none of your loving business. You're a stranger.

"That's not one of my considerations when I am evaluating other opportunities."

# ¿ Aug 26, 2023 18:53

Mantle: May 15, 2004

TheParadigm posted:

There's also the overemployment option: Take both jobs, but tell the old job you have limited availability due to prior obligations. Simply overlap your remote days and/or extend it a day into the weekend. It'll suck a bit until newjob becomes comfy, but there's some upsides: Your old job you can (probably) do in your sleep, you get the unbroken/no break in your resume benefit, and if they want you on five days a week you have the power to say 'no, 'm happy in this schedule', and can pick one to stick with later.

Learn everything you can from the new job, coast at the old one, tough it out until you just feel the edges of burn out creeping in, then ditch one and take some vacation.

How do you handle explaining the overlapping employment in your history when searching for the next job? If you crop the end date of prevjob or start date of currjob there's the risk of a red flag popping up if someone checks your start/end dates.

E: "next job" refers to the 3rd job (nextjob). i.e. prevjob and currjob overlap, how do you explain the overlap when interviewing with nextjob?

Mantle fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 8, 2024

# ¿ Jan 8, 2024 21:41

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Barudak posted:

I interviewed with a company that wants me to do a "case study" for them. Whats the politest way to decline based on that being beneath me, and also how rude/fun will it be to send them a "here is my consulting rate" counter which is what Im fantasizing about but wont do. Daydream with me.

ChatGPT made this for me. It's quite robotic so you would need to put it in your own voice but I think the main points are good:

quote:

Dear [Recipient],

Thank you for considering me for the opportunity to join [Company Name]. I'm enthusiastic about the possibility of contributing to your team and helping achieve your objectives.

Regarding the case study, I appreciate the chance to demonstrate my skills and suitability for the role. To optimize the process and ensure mutual benefit, I propose conducting the case study on a contracted project basis. Here's how I believe this approach would be advantageous for both parties:

Clear Expectations: By structuring the case study as a contracted project, we can define clear objectives, deliverables, and timelines upfront. This ensures that both parties understand what is expected and can work towards achieving concrete outcomes.

Focused Evaluation: Conducting the case study as a contracted project allows for a focused evaluation of my skills and potential fit within the organization. It provides an opportunity to showcase my capabilities in a real-world context, addressing specific challenges or objectives outlined by the company.

Risk Mitigation: For [Company Name], engaging in a contracted project minimizes the risk associated with assessing a potential candidate's suitability for a permanent position. It allows you to evaluate my performance and deliverables firsthand before making a long-term commitment.

Flexible Engagement: This approach offers flexibility for both parties. If the case study project is successful and there is mutual interest in moving forward, we can explore potential employment arrangements that align with our respective needs and objectives.

Professional Collaboration: Collaborating on a contracted project fosters a professional working relationship from the outset. It provides an opportunity to gauge compatibility, communication, and teamwork dynamics, laying a solid foundation for future collaboration.

I believe that conducting the case study on a contracted project basis allows us to make a well-informed decision about our potential collaboration while maximizing the value we can create together.

I look forward to discussing this proposal further and exploring how we can proceed in a manner that is mutually beneficial and conducive to our shared goals.

Thank you for considering my suggestion, and I eagerly await the opportunity to continue our conversation.

Warm regards,
[Your Name]

# ¿ Feb 21, 2024 01:32

Mantle: May 15, 2004

I just got out of an interview loop debrief call where I was told that I passed and would be matched with a team with a large company that you've heard of.

I felt I was finally cornered into naming a number first, so I just looked them up on levels.fyi and told them I'd be looking for C$150k, which was the average for that level at that company. This would be a massive raise for me compared to my current level, but I think I left money on the table. I should have asked for a bit more than the average, and been happy to come down to the average. I also told them this was only a starting point for discussion, and that salary is but one part of total rewards (barf I hate this term).

I don't think the mistake was fatal and there probably is still room for another $10k or so but I probably anchored myself a bit low, but it would still be a win overall if I do sign with this company. In hindsight, I think my performance on the call could have been better if I had prepared a scripted answer, knowing that I would finally be cornered into talking about TC. I was a bit fooled by the recruiter being cagey about the topic of the call so I didn't know if it was going to be a good news call or a rejection call.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2024 15:47

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Not a Children posted:

That's why it's important to get practice saying "no" or "send me the offer and I'll evaluate it as a whole" before it matters. It's not as easy as it sounds, especially with emotions running high. You'll still likely get a big ol' raise and that's a win so don't fret too much!

Sounds like you left enough wiggle room to work with. After they give you the full rundown on benefits you may be able to state your new target after evaluating the whole package. You probably won't be able to get to $200k doing that but you can definitely work out a bump without egg on your face.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

any company worth their salt will just be like no dude 150k take it or leave it and you're gonna take it so i am not sure it's worth the rigamarole other than if you want free negotiation practice and rejection practice, which is useful i guess

So I got the written offer and big surprise, it was just over $150k which is slightly below the mid for the role according to levels.fyi.

1) is it too much to counter with $170k, which seems closer to the middle of the pack but is substantially more than my initial ask?
2) The offer letter came with the HR admin, recruiter and engineering manager copied. Is it ok to reply all without appearing too pushy? I already had a team matching call with the EM and he shared with me that he was surprised his requisition got filled so quickly as he was down the priority list, so maybe he doesn't want to lose this opportunity?

# ¿ Apr 12, 2024 03:11

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Lockback posted:

Yeah, if I were the hiring manager I'd call the bluff but it's worth asking. Something along the lines of "Looking through the benefits I'd be willing to accept this offer immediately for $170k" won't get the offer pulled.

If they hold firm, 150 sounds like its still a good win so don't beat yourself up.

It's not really a bluff. I have a competing offer for $125k with 4dww, 5% bonus + 3000 startup lottery tickets, but my preference is to take the 5dww offer because I think the team is better. I just want the money to be proportionate or better.

I suppose one of the problems is how do I convince the company I want that it is a real option?

E: I guess it still could be a bluff in that I'm leaning to taking the offer, whatever it ends up being. But it's not that I don't have a strong batna.

Mantle fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Apr 12, 2024

# ¿ Apr 12, 2024 05:32

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Not a Children posted:

Sharing my experience, I was looking down the barrel of this exact scenario 2 years ago, with 2 offers in hand for $150k. Job market was much hotter in general then but I asked both for $165k (and panic attacked my way through the whole process).

Both came up a little bit ($155k) with signing bonuses tacked on with little fuss or muss. $170k isn't too high an ask, you won't get laughed out of the room. Not like when Amazon lowballed me and I asked for 275% of their offer.

I would respond-all but that's just me.

I ended up responding only to the recruiter with $172k and they didn't withdraw the offer, but just asked for details of the competing offer. I think the scary part is over!

I decided to reveal the details of the other offer being $164k prorated to 4dww because it gives them a number to anchor to. I would be satisfied if they were to match proportionally, even discounting the value of 4dww to zero.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2024 16:49

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Mantle posted:

I ended up responding only to the recruiter with $172k and they didn't withdraw the offer, but just asked for details of the competing offer. I think the scary part is over!

I decided to reveal the details of the other offer being $164k prorated to 4dww because it gives them a number to anchor to. I would be satisfied if they were to match proportionally, even discounting the value of 4dww to zero.

To close the loop on this, I just signed the counteroffer at $171k TC. There was actually an extra $5k in annual "lifestyle health spending" that I didn't account for that pushed up the TC to $171k. All in all, having the strong BATNA and presenting as confident in my ask gave me another $14k TC after one round of negotiation. In the end, I don't think anchoring low initially hurt me because I luckily had a competing offer.

I think it hasn't sunk in how life-changing this is going to be for me, but this is a 70% increase from what I'm currently making.

I think after I have a bit of time to digest, I will write a short case study for goons about the negotiation process, what I think went well and what I could have done better.

Thanks goons!

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 22:20

Mantle: May 15, 2004

When you're at the negotiation of offer stage, both parties are actually aligned. They actually want to come to a deal with you, and you (supposedly, but not always) want to come to a deal with them. The way to get to yes is to make it EASY for the other side to give you what they want.

If you think about their processes, the easiest thing for them is to say to their budget approver "Everything is settled except for number $x. If we give them $x, they will sign and this will be done." So you want to communicate clearly to the HR contact exactly what they should tell the approver to make you sign.

The wrong way to do it would be where you internally have all of these considerations like oh I want 4 weeks vacay instead of 3, or maybe you could give me a signing bonus if you can't increase salary, or my other offer is 4dww so I dunno how to compare blah blah

You need to abstract all of that poo poo into YOUR number that you value it at and then just communicate that number. Hide all of the reasoning, the HR doesn't care, they just want to know number.

e: Of course, if things like 4 weeks vacation are really important to you, then by all means include those in your ask, but know that it does make the HR's job harder than "know number".

Mantle fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Apr 17, 2024

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 22:07

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

My concern, as pointed out to me on the previous page, is I'm negotiating off a federal contract and there's typically not a lot of wiggle room on those things.

You said the range is X-Y and they offered you Z, where X < Z < Y.

You know there is wiggle room up to Y.

I think this is less about the money and more about you knowing your BATNA. If Z exceeds your BATNA, it means you've already won. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get more gravy. At a minimum, ask for Y and see what they say.

If you don't know whether Z exceeds your BATNA, then figuring that out is an exercise you need to do before taking any action.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 22:37

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 12:14

Mantle: May 15, 2004

Negotiation Case Study

Factual Background
I completed interview loops with two companies ending around the same time. After getting to the offer stage with both, I had a first negotiation call with my first choice. On the call, I named my ask of $150k and received an initial offer of $152k. Later, I got a verbal offer from my second choice of $125k + 5% bonus with a 4 day work week. I shared with my first choice that I had a competing offer that I valued at $164k (prorated to 5 days) and counter-offered with $172k. An offer came back at $166k which I accepted.

Analysis
Negotiation call with first choice

Things that didn�t go well
* Nerves - I was flustered when it turned out they wanted to move to the offer stage (it was ambiguous whether the call was going to be an offer or rejection). I accidentally underconverted the USD to CAD conversion of salaries on Levels.fyi by C$15k due to nerves as a result of time pressure. My initial ask was in the middle of the range instead of the top, again due to nerves.

Things that went well
* Anchoring - I based my ask on what my research showed the company was willing to pay, not on my current salary. I didn�t make any commitments to signing at my initial ask. What I did was not optimal, but I consider this as "went well" because my approach to base my ask on my research of what the company paid for this position was correct.

What I should have done differently
* Prepare for a negotiation call or practice a strategy of deferring negotiations in writing until after the call.
* Consider my ask based on both the anticipated offer from the 2nd choice and the Levels.fyi information. In this case I knew the competing offer would be around $130k with a * 4dww but I didn�t properly consider it when calculating my 5dww ask.
* Attempt to delay saying number first.

My counteroffer

Things that didn�t go well
* Forced to share information - My low anchor meant that I had to disclose the details of my competing offer in order to justify increasing the offer.

Things that went well
* Leverage - I had a competing offer.
* Clear communication - I used the competing offer to make a defendable valuation-- it wasn�t the only possible valuation, but it was defendable. I abstracted the details of how I valued the 4 day work week prorated to 5 day compensation and the details of compensation into a single dollar value, making it clear how the company could compete on an apples to apples basis.
* Demonstrating confidence - I didn�t have to lie and presented myself confidently. Once I realized that the offer was not going to be withdrawn, I gained a lot of confidence during the remainder of the negotiation.
* Understanding self - I understood my BATNA before making the counteroffer.

What I should have done differently
* Nothing. I closed the deal and it exceeded my BATNA.

Conclusion
The biggest factor in this negotiation was the fact that I had a competing offer. I do not think that I was hurt at all by my low anchor, due to the competing offer. The competing offer doesn�t even have to be formal-- at the time, the competing offer was an informal verbal offer. But you must be able to speak to it clearly and confidently. Disclosing the details of my competing offer probably limited my upside, but 1) the initial offer was already above my BATNA; and 2) the counter offer was at the top end of the range on Levels.fyi so I was satisfied.

Final takeaways:

* A competing offer fixes most mistakes.
* The competing offer doesn�t need to be formal, but it will be taken as seriously as you present it.
* Maintain a collaborative and positive tone. Make it easy for the other side to give you what you want by making a clear ask.
* Know your BATNA and rely on research to know when you�ve won.

Appendix A - Counteroffer

code:

Hi [Recruiter],

Thank you again for extending the employment offer from [Company]. Meeting with [Hiring Manager] gave me a good sense of engineering culture fit and the responsibilities of the [Team] teams. I'm really excited to start working with him!

Although I have received other competitive offers and continue to evaluate all of my options, my first choice is to come to an agreement with [Company]. If you could revise the offer letter to $137,600 salary and $34,400 RSUs, I would accept immediately.

I'm happy to connect on a call to help us get closer to an agreement. Thank you so much for all your support during this process!

[Yours sincerely]

Appendix B - Response to request for competing offer details

code:

Hi [Recruiter],

I don't normally share the details of competing offers, but my goal with [Company] is to come to a deal.

That said, the other company's initial offer is $164,000 total rewards with unlimited time off, pro-rated to a 4 day work week. It is hard to quantify the value of a 4 day work week, but the people I know doing it say it is life-changing.

I am having a call with the other company today to discuss their initial offer so I expect there to be some wiggle room with them as well. I'm willing to forego this conversation with them if we can come to an agreement before then.

I'm sharing all of this information with you to help you make the best decision on how we can move forward so I can start my [Company] journey. I hope this helps!

[Yours sincerely]

# ¿ Apr 20, 2024 05:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?