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I don't know anything about the "commission" scheme, but early stage startup equity is usually worth less than a lottery ticket, especially if it is common equity (vs preferred). Even if the stars align and that startup makes it big and gets to some major liquidity event a few years down the road, the odds that a) you still are still there and own/can exercise the equity/options and b) haven't been diluted to nothingness are not in your favor. Until that liquidity event (that probably never happens), the equity is effectively worthless and there is no secondary market for it. There are outlier exceptions, but it's very rare.
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Oct 29, 2018 22:41
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I can't speak to the legality of compulsory PTO, but it reeks of bullshit. Either make it a company holiday or not. Corporate America is the worst.
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Nov 19, 2018 18:54
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If you were let go, even if on good terms, and they realized they still need you after, then honestly gently caress them kinda. 3-5x your salary-hourly I'd say if you're on good terms. 10x to "gently caress off" if not. 2-3x is pretty typical contractor vs FTE rate for anybody off the street. Having intimate domain knowledge and no onboarding/ramp-up time makes you way more valuable than that. Guinness fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 20:22
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buglord posted:Also, is it possible to negotiate for non salary things? Like, more vacation or sick days or something? It's always worth trying, but a lot of companies have blanket policies and schedules for this sort of thing and will resist bending the rules.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:54
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i'm actually totally in favor of being a team player and assuming that pay comes with performance I face this issue at my company. I'm an engineering manager and report to a VP, and interact professionally and casually with most of the VP/leadership team. I frequently try to advocate for people that are performing above their title or existing pay grade. Especially in the software & systems engineering business where a couple of good years of experience can mean a 50-100% market value increase. I'm only still here because I've schmoozed and advocated for myself ferociously, far more than most people do. Over the years, we've had a number of excellent IC engineers depart the company because they came in at a junior level and the company didn't adequately respond to their performance and increased experience & market value. The response I've gotten every time? "Well we gave them an extraordinary 8% annual raise!" or "They got promoted from junior to mid-level, and got a 15% raise!". "Anything more would be ludicrous!!" Yeah, well, that doesn't mean poo poo when that percent increase is anchored on an out-of-date base salary. You are all morons for basing things on percent values instead of nominal dollars. Every single one of those departed people left after 2-3 years and got a near-double increase in salary. Not only was it disruptive to their teams and projects, but then the company had to spend time and resources looking to hire a replacement. And when replacements are brought in at a mid-senior level they get paid approximately what the departed person should have gotten paid. So they aren't even saving any loving money in the long run. It's terrible shortsighted thinking with numerous quantitative and qualitative costs. And yet this is status quo at pretty much every company. Company loyalty is dead because companies killed it. Go get that new job to get that big raise you deserve. Negotiate firmly up front, because it's likely the best and only chance you'll have to set the anchor for all your future raises and promotions as high as you possibly can. Guinness fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 20:28
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State universities may very well have rigid, formulaic pay grades but there's almost certainly no harm in asking, only upside.
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May 8, 2019 03:08
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If it's a company you'd love to work for and its an internal recruiter, let them know via email that you're interested but not willing to relocate. If there's even a small possibility of other opportunities, there is really no harm in a 15-30 min phone call.
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May 30, 2019 07:10
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RSUs get nuts at big public companies and at senior levels. More strings attached than cash and some more risk built in, but it becomes a huge part of comp.
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Jul 27, 2019 01:26
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Internal recruiters are typically 1000x better and more worthwhile than third party recruiters. Not always, but typically. I almost always at least read messages from internal recruiters from interesting companies, even if I don't follow up on them. But I ignore 99.9% of cold-calling third party recruiters because they peddle mostly garbage contract gigs, awful legacy companies, or bottom tier startups and they know it because they won't be upfront with you about who they are recruiting for.
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Jul 30, 2019 01:02
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What about people who seem just as skeezy but are allegedly recruiting for companies like Facebook and Amazon? Do you mean people that are lying and deceiving you, or is this just a jab at Amazon and Facebook? I have no love for or desire to work at either of those places, but I’ve been contacted by their internal recruiters plenty and it’s usually pretty clear that they are legit (@amazon.com or @facebook.com email, forthright about the details, links to real job reqs). I’ve had a weirdo or two, but even then I’m pretty sure they actually worked there.
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Jul 30, 2019 01:28
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BeastOfExmoor posted:Interview went well. I just got word that I will be receiving an offer letter in the next day or two. Congrats!! Sounds like regardless of the specifics that you are excited about this job and that it will be a huge increase. I think that you can likely push on the 4 weeks vacation as a negotiating lever, assuming that they offer less than that. The unfortunate reality is that you are unlikely to get them to come up to 4 weeks if that is not their policy. Since you mentioned RSUs, they are a large-ish public company, yes? I would wager that they will not be willing to budge on their vacation policy for a non-executive level person. It sucks BUT you can play this to your advantage as justification when asking for a bump in salary, RSUs, or larger signing bonus.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:08
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moana posted:That letter is way long and none of your reasoning or justification are things they care about. Don't mention your wife, your health, your tax considerations, how stable you think their bonuses are. They know how much you're worth to them, and none of that other poo poo matters. Agreed with all of this. Keep it concise and to the point. Don't bring all your personal details into the discussion - they don't care about the details, and if anything it's information that could theoretically be used against you. Just bring the numbers that are the result of all your thinking and calculations. Leverage the PTO difference into more money, since they will almost certainly not budge on PTO policy. If you're writing paragraphs in these exchanges you're saying too much. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 18:37
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big trivia FAIL posted:i would accept knowing full well that i'm leveraging the new title to leave for a 30-40% increase nearly immediately 
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Aug 26, 2019 18:54
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Blaming HR policy is a cop-out. I'd wager that "policy' isn't even formally written down anywhere, because it's a stupid policy. A good enough manager should be able to work the system and get someone with enough clout on their side to override the policy. Otherwise, like you said, they are just setting themselves up to drive out good talent. If you take the position without a commensurate increase in compensation, polish up that resume with the new title and start shopping it around. That'll get the message across.
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Aug 26, 2019 19:50
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I've seen some pretty hilarious posts on LinkedIn and such from HR, recruiter, and business types that are whining about candidates being "unprofessional" for not being grateful for the opportunity to gobble their balls and having the audacity to not return their calls/emails or ghost them after a poo poo interview/offer - likely because they have better opportunities. Or having the gall to "be disloyal and job hop" to a better job after a year or two rather than "putting in their time" like a good little cog. The total lack of self-awareness that companies have been treating applicants like subhuman garbage and holding back on raises and promotions for current employees for years and now the market forces have turned the result is just delicious. Company loyalty is dead, and it's the companies that killed it with their unfettered greedy capitalism. Always look out for number one and go get what you want. Don't wait around for it because it's probably not coming. Even great companies fall victim to it. Stick around for as long as you keep getting good experience and fairly compensated (which may be a long time, in some cases!) but don't be afraid to look around and move to greener pastures when the time comes.
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Sep 11, 2019 01:19
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It's why in this thread we always say compare total compensation, not just base salary. It's also a good "weasel word" when getting pressured for target numbers. A lot of benefits and extra comp structures are worth more than their nominal value in salary.
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Sep 12, 2019 00:41
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m0therfux0r posted:^Unless you're talking about being on a W2 through a staffing agency as a "contractor". The benefits aren't as good as they are for FTEs but the pay is the same since they handle all that extra tax poo poo. I used to work as a contractor/consultant through a firm, so I was a W2 employee but working in a billable hours model. Our comp and benefits were better than most of our clients (big corporations) offered their FTEs. The contracting world is big and varied so it's hard to give one size fits all advice. But ya, big big difference between freelance/1099 contracting and full-time agency/consultancy contracting. $50/hr 1099 contracting is pretty rough. It might sound like a lot but there are so many hidden costs. There's a reason for the general rule of thumb of 3x W2 to 1099, especially as freelance. A "guaranteed" long term contract might be okay closer to 2x but mehhh.
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Sep 12, 2019 18:40
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IMO it’s insane to accept an offer without knowing all the details of compensation and benefits. These aren’t “minor details” but potentially many thousands of dollars worth of comp. There’s no good reason I can think of for them to be concealing all that until you “accept” except for it all being a grand bait-and-switch that ends with you being given a package worse than was promised verbally. Especially with some (likely scummy) third party contract body shop middlemanning you. “My acceptance is contingent upon review of the total compensation and benefits package once delivered to me in writing” should be your stance. Unless you’re really hard-up for a job, this just seems like a lot of red flags to me.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:59
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Zauper posted:I'd push back a bit on that -- $500k at current valuation sounds pretty insane. Depends a bit on total valuation though, to your point. If the company is only worth $50M, then 500k is 1%, and you're not going to get that as employee 100. If the company is worth $500M, then it's 0.1%, and maybe you will. That is likely around what you should be trying for... though likely won't get. We're around 65-70 employees, and there's no role for which we would hire where we'd give $500k worth of equity at current valuation. Maybe if we were bringing in a COO? But we also don't have crazy SV pre-revenue valuations, we're 'only' like 10-12x revenue. This all makes sense in a reasonable world, but VC-fueled pre-IPO unicorn startup world is pants-on-head stupid with this stuff. At an "architect" level, assuming that's a pretty senior IC role, 500k of pre-IPO equity doesn't seem all that out of line as a hiring grant since there's real risk that it never materializes into anything. At the post-IPO public companies I've looked into/worked at, a similarly leveled IC is likely getting 300-500k in hire-on RSU grants (with a vesting schedule, obvs), and those have actual liquidity.
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Oct 17, 2019 20:27
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Friend posted:though we have purposely low goals in order to allow us to experiment, build culture, and aim at additional goals The gently caress is this? This seems to me like they're openly admitting that the goal posts will always be moved no matter what you do. Jordan7hm posted:Stop wasting mental energy with your current job, put all your focus into getting a new job. Yup. Phone in the bare minimum while you look for something new. You fired some very clear warning shots with some very valid concerns. Fuckin'  at "let's discuss this in 6 months, if you take on even more work between now and then".
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Oct 24, 2019 21:27
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I’m not familiar with Philadelphia or the east coast at all, but when looking at Glassdoor in general take it with a grain of salt, I’ve always found it to skew low and not capture non-salary compensation very well. Glassdoor lists the average base salary for my title as 25% below my actual, before bonus and stock. If you include non-salary comp it’s almost 40% below. And I’m nothing particularly special in my area, plenty of more senior ICs making more especially in stock and bonuses. And payscale.com is even further off the mark. Check out https://www.levels.fyi I’ve found it to be much more representative of what people are actually getting paid at medium/large tech companies in a region. Also be sure to factor in benefits as they can be worth (or cost you) serious money.
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Nov 16, 2019 02:26
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There are few greater satisfactions than dropping that sort of bomb on an employer that stubbornly refuses to give adequate raises/promotions/market adjustments/whatever. Especially if they cited their own "market research" about salary data as justification. "Yeah, well, my market research says I'm 25% underpaid so bye"
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Nov 21, 2019 20:01
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:She told me she was "confused and saddened" as to "how we had gotten here" and that "she really wished I'd reconsider and stay." Sounds to me like you told them exactly what they could have done, but they refused. Love the "confusion" about it.
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Dec 6, 2019 23:30
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There is an important distinction between a third party “headhunter” recruiter and an internal recruiter that actually works for a given company. We are almost always referring to the third party kind of recruiter in this thread, and everything above applies. They are often a useless middleman unless they deal with a niche specialty. Internal recruiters are still incentivized to fill positions, but they are usually much more aligned with the business and are held more accountable for the quality of their candidates. While they are still called recruiters, they are really just representatives of the company and should be interacted with as such.
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Jan 17, 2020 19:44
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Sounds like a good outcome all around, congrats. Take the job and enjoy it for the time being. Get the most out of it that you can and reevaluate in a year or two.
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Feb 6, 2020 22:45
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priznat posted:Hey thread, my co is rolling out a 10% pay cut instead of layoffs (as the official line goes). I’m in Canada and our labour laws require consent to cut pay. I’m wondering if anyone has been or is in a similar situation and if there is any good advice or even commiseration. My company also just announced "temporary" 10% pay cuts and bonus holds (not that we'd hit targets, anyway) through end of summer, in addition to a huge round of layoffs and furloughs. I'm certainly not happy about it, but it's better than being laid off -- which is presumably the alternative. I'm going to let it play out a little bit more before panicking, but it does make me start to think about new jobs unfortunately. Pretty poo poo time to be looking for a new job, though.
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Apr 10, 2020 02:11
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Got my current job from an internal recruiter messaging me on LinkedIn. Important bit being that it was an internal recruiter, not a third-party headhunter. Also got my previous job from an old colleague reconnecting out of the blue on LinkedIn, but that’s a bit different. As cringey as LinkedIn can be, it’s one of the best resources for jobs IMO. Signal to noise is not great, but it’s better than most other platforms I think. If you’re interested have a call with them to feel it out more, there’s no harm in it. Could work out great!
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May 8, 2020 18:42
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I think it really depends on the company culture how it'd get interpreted. But in most places I've worked lateral moves between teams is generally viewed at worst with neutrality and can often be a good thing. Folks in my company move around somewhat regularly, but management encourages people trying to find the team and work area that makes them happiest. Titles and roles are org-level so switching teams is't moving management structures all that much. If switching teams within your company is closer to changing jobs entirely, then I guess a lateral might not be so worth it.
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May 15, 2020 19:56
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Xguard86 posted:I have personally dropped people for trying to hack/smooze interviews. I have also been on hiring committees where we compared stories and saw their playbook. Same. It's usually quite obvious what's going on. Our post-interview consensus is designed to catch red flags like this (not this one specifically, but in general). And if you stalled and wasted time to avoid any technical questioning that's going to come out, too, since that's literally the reason for half the interviews in the loop. I've also been at companies in the past where smoozing the interview worked, and I watched my bosses get snowed by smooth talkers that didn't know poo poo. So yeah I suppose you can find somewhere that it works, but there's a lot of reasons I'm not at those companies anymore.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:07
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:he didnt even really get a counteroffer he got a counter wellmaybe The fatal flaw in his plan, rookie mistake. You hate to see it, Bob.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:07
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Good-Natured Filth posted:I just got more info from them that they don't offer a bonus potential (I'm at 7.5% right now, and while I've only been here 3 years, I've gotten the full amount every year). If I include the lack of bonus potential, my break even is even larger, but I don't normally include bonus in any calculations since it's never guaranteed. In your situation, where you already have a good job that you like and a decent history of paying out, I would absolutely count that bonus toward your current compensation when doing the comparison.
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Jul 30, 2020 18:12
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Yes, I know that. Bonuses are obviously not guaranteed. Normally I would agree to heavily discount it. But in this situation where you're already in a very good spot and trying to throw out a highball number, don't discount that bonus when comparing comp packages, especially when the new one is a step down in several ways. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 18:44
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Good-Natured Filth posted:After I declined, the recruiter indignantly told me that if I want that high of a salary, I need to start looking outside of our area. I reminded him that I'm not looking - they were the ones to reach out to me Classic recruiter  Sorry (or not?) that it didn't lead to anything this time, but it's never a bad exercise to run through. Never know what'll happen!
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Jul 31, 2020 22:15
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Lockback posted:I honestly think anchoring is a better bet when you have an offer in hand like that. I think the thread title is wrong and works best when you don't have a good insight into salary ranges and market rate, but even then you open yourself into a company anchoring you low. I agree the thread title is more general advice, and a situation where you have the upper hand with a good BATNA and know the market rates is an exception when it can benefit you to anchor the conversation high. As long as you're truly willing to walk away to your BATNA then you have a lot of power in the negotiation.
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Aug 12, 2020 19:28
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Democratic Pirate posted:I got suckered into paying more for a higher unit in my last apartment. In fairness, the view did improve substantially and we were on the top level so paying to not have upstairs neighbors was worth it. My rule for apartment living was always top floor. It's worth every single cent more to not have neighbors above you. Incidental bonus for better views, if applicable.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:48
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Big tech cos like FAANG and friends have pretty standardized leveling and pay bands for new hires and tend to not negotiate much unless there is a competing offer on the table (or you are super-senior and highly desired). Without one, you don't have a ton of leverage to negotiate a whole lot, perhaps some extra signing bonus. But their pay bands (plus stock) are typically so much higher than average that it's difficult to have a truly competing offer, except from another FAANG-like company. There are a lot of cases where they will deliver an offer package higher than stated in the interview process because they won't go out of their way to super lowball an individual that doesn't ask for enough. The real thing that fucks you long term is getting mis-leveled as an incoming hire, because it will take you years to get that promo internally rather than as a new hire. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Sep 18, 2020 |
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Sep 18, 2020 18:07
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Ultimate Mango posted:Had an interesting call with a FAANG recruiter just now. Of course the last question was to try to get me to give a number. I went with “I know the market and the role you are looking for and am confident you would have a competitive offer.” Amazon is a unique beast in the way they structure their comp, with the capped base salary, huge cash signing bonuses, and very delayed RSU vest. They know most people won't make it past two years, and the extreme backloading on RSU vesting reflects that. Most other big techs have a linear vest schedule, and some have no initial vesting cliff at all. But yeah, like I said earlier, FAANG and most similar companies have pretty predefined pay bands and they aren't out to individually lowball you. Within a pay band there's not a ton of wiggle room, but the bands are fairly generous. It's just important to get leveled right as you come in, because getting underleveled and waiting on a promo will take a while, if ever. caveat: may not apply to super-senior roles, where the market is thinner Guinness fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Sep 29, 2020 |
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Sep 29, 2020 21:13
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It'll be really dependent on the company and situation. Most every company wants you to start as soon as possible, but they don't always mean it's a dealbreaker if it's not next week. I gave three weeks notice and took the better part of a month off when I changed jobs last, and that was a non-issue in negotiating the offer. I've seen people get hired with start dates several months out from their interview. Startups probably can't wait for months. Established teams maybe can, for the right person.
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Oct 10, 2020 01:11
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It's totally dependent on the company and industry, but in some places its not strictly true that a manager earns more than one of their ICs or is "higher up" necessarily. Senior management is almost certainly much more compensated, but a first rung team lead is more of a lateral move onto a different career track and doesn't necessarily mean a big comp boost. When I was a team lead half my reports made more than me. It is, however, an opportunity to renegotiate your value to the company that you've probably been underpaid for leading up to this point, and congrats on doing that successfully. And pro tip: don't go into management "for the money" unless you actually want to be a manager, and all the stress and frustration and initially being bad at it that comes with the territory. Whatever small pay increase you're getting now is not worth it in the short term, unless you actually want to attempt to grow into senior management and all that it entails. It's a different job and responsibility and it's not for everyone. Guinness fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 01:02
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congrats on all the recent figgies in this thread, warms my heart
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Jan 22, 2021 23:17
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